Covid-19 miscellany

[Toni]

I suppose we could just let COVID run rampant among those who chose not to be vaccinated and hope/pray that those of us who are vaccinated/boosted/masked, etc. don't also get sick and that it doesn't totally destroy our health care system because all of our health care workers are burnt out permanently (as many are close to being) and that it only takes out fascists and not actual thinking people with a conscience.

This sort of black and white thinking is disastrous, regardless of who is doing it. There are lots of ways of strongly encouraging vaccination without the side effects of the government mandates sledgehammer approach.
Tom

How’s that working out for us?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I suppose we could just let COVID run rampant among those who chose not to be vaccinated and hope/pray that those of us who are vaccinated/boosted/masked, etc. don't also get sick and that it doesn't totally destroy our health care system because all of our health care workers are burnt out permanently (as many are close to being) and that it only takes out fascists and not actual thinking people with a conscience.

This sort of black and white thinking is disastrous, regardless of who is doing it. There are lots of ways of strongly encouraging vaccination without the side effects of the government mandates sledgehammer approach.
Tom

Could you cite some of those ways that would work on people such as these?

Does that guy's sign say "PROTECT ORGASMS" ? And the other guy: Spiritual War. So like they are having a spiritual war to protect orgasms... ... ... ?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Could you cite some of those ways that would work on people such as these?

Does that guy's sign say "PROTECT ORGASMS" ? And the other guy: Spiritual War. So like they are having a spiritual war to protect orgasms... ... ... ?

I could get behind anti-vax if they were promoting orgasms.
Start asking my wife for a Boooooooster, if you know what i mean.
Then walk with a limp for a while.

Sadly, i think he's protecting organs. Or oregano, maybe? The other idiot's sign should be '$$ billion business', not 'billion $$ business' so clearly they're not utilizing any sort of quality assurance before they march.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I suppose we could just let COVID run rampant among those who chose not to be vaccinated and hope/pray that those of us who are vaccinated/boosted/masked, etc. don't also get sick and that it doesn't totally destroy our health care system because all of our health care workers are burnt out permanently (as many are close to being) and that it only takes out fascists and not actual thinking people with a conscience.

This sort of black and white thinking is disastrous, regardless of who is doing it. There are lots of ways of strongly encouraging vaccination without the side effects of the government mandates sledgehammer approach.
Tom

Yeah. The US tried that. Over 250,000 Americans died since July 1, 2021. And the anti-vax crowd is growing. People are radicalizing to this nonsense. The US strongly encouraged getting vaccinated. Companies were paying their workers to get vaccinated (because the cost of that reward was much lower than the cost of health care for hospitalizations). And some people are absolutely and unquestionably against vaccination. They say it is about freedom, but no one was forced to get vaccinated in the first place.

 

[TomC]

Could you cite some of those ways that would work on people such as these?

Of course I can't speak about a tiny handful of randos in a pic.

But take that person prominent in the foreground.
Suppose she works from home, lives on delivery, can afford a "Covid19 Copay" for health insurance, and her recreational activities are hiking and gardening and painting landscapes. Society has no need to care about her vaccination status.
On the other hand, if she's a more normal person, she might find that having her choices rapidly restricted by her vaccination status a bigger problem than getting vaccinated. If her options concerning employment, shopping, eating out and entertainment venues started shrinking, she might just change her mind. Get vaccinated, however reluctantly.

Without giving the Trumpistas such heavy weapons. Weapons that could result in President Desantis in a few years.

Remember the ACA rollout? Remember the disinformation campaign, like "Death Panels"? The way the Republicans pulled out all the stops to make sure the rollout went as badly as possible, so they could blame Obama? That's what I think will happen. Only worse.
Tom

 

[TomC]

that working out for us?

Yeah. The US tried that.

What I'm talking about hasn't been tried. Not any scale. It worked at my partner's employer. I don't know what happened at the airline that added a $200/mo fee to unvaccinated employees. Around here, even masking requirements posted on a shop door are routinely ignored.

It hasn't really been tried.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Could you cite some of those ways that would work on people such as these?

Does that guy's sign say "PROTECT ORGASMS" ? And the other guy: Spiritual War. So like they are having a spiritual war to protect orgasms... ... ... ?

I could get behind anti-vax if they were promoting orgasms.
Start asking my wife for a Boooooooster, if you know what i mean.
Then walk with a limp for a while.

Sadly, i think he's protecting organs. Or oregano, maybe? The other idiot's sign should be '$$ billion business', not 'billion $$ business' so clearly they're not utilizing any sort of quality assurance before they march.

I think his sign says protest and organize, but I definitely like your idea better.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

that working out for us?

Yeah. The US tried that.

What I'm talking about hasn't been tried. Not any scale. It worked at my partner's employer. I don't know what happened at the airline that added a $200/mo fee to unvaccinated employees. Around here, even masking requirements posted on a shop door are routinely ignored.

It hasn't really been tried.
Tom

My bad. I keep forgetting than individual experiences count as broad experiences across the nation.

People were given the choice. I'm tired about how the Government forced something on them... that was never forced on them!

 

[Keith&Co.]

Could you cite some of those ways that would work on people such as these?

Does that guy's sign say "PROTECT ORGASMS" ? And the other guy: Spiritual War. So like they are having a spiritual war to protect orgasms... ... ... ?

I could get behind anti-vax if they were promoting orgasms.
Start asking my wife for a Boooooooster, if you know what i mean.
Then walk with a limp for a while.

Sadly, i think he's protecting organs. Or oregano, maybe? The other idiot's sign should be '$$ billion business', not 'billion $$ business' so clearly they're not utilizing any sort of quality assurance before they march.

I think his sign says protest and organize, but I definitely like your idea better.

On further thought, could also be 'Protect Oregon.' (sic)
Any idea where this march was?

 

[Toni]

that working out for us?

Yeah. The US tried that.

What I'm talking about hasn't been tried. Not any scale. It worked at my partner's employer. I don't know what happened at the airline that added a $200/mo fee to unvaccinated employees. Around here, even masking requirements posted on a shop door are routinely ignored.

It hasn't really been tried.
Tom

Lots of major employers have used rewards to enthuse workers to be vaccinated. My local county has used cast to entice people to be vaccinated. Some parts of the military offered cash.

And some people got vaccinated who were maybe hesitant. Some people who fully intended to be vaccinated waited, holding out for cash incentives.

During this delay in vaccination, more virus spread, with symptomatic patients and also asymptomatic individuals who had no idea they were infected. And of course, some people simply were never going to be vaccinated.

Repeat all over the country.

This is how a pandemic continues with more resistant variants.

 

[TomC]

that working out for us?

Yeah. The US tried that.

What I'm talking about hasn't been tried. Not any scale. It worked at my partner's employer. I don't know what happened at the airline that added a $200/mo fee to unvaccinated employees. Around here, even masking requirements posted on a shop door are routinely ignored.

It hasn't really been tried.
Tom

My bad. I keep forgetting than individual experiences count as broad experiences across the nation.

People were given the choice. I'm tired about how the Government forced something on them... that was never forced on them!

Is there anything in what you responded that is relevant to my post? If so, I don't see it.

Like "personal experience". I didn't mention that. And "government forced". What this looks like to me is you dodging what I said and setting up a bunch of strawman idiocy.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Repeat all over the country.

Now picture this.
The mandate is such a disaster that the sociopolitical outcome is Republican supermajorities on Capitol Hill and President Desantis in the White House.

Without as much rise in vaccination rates as could have been accomplished by less draconian methods.

Would it be worth it? Enough Sanderistas were convinced that he was the only possible choice, talking trash about Hillary and writing in Sanders and just "refusing on principle to vote", that we wound up with Trump. Leftist ideological purists didn't just shoot us in our own foot. It was a self inflicted gut shot.

I don't want that to happen again. But it might. I think it very likely if Biden is pressured into imposing a C19 vaccination mandate.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Repeat all over the country.

Now picture this.
The mandate is such a disaster that the sociopolitical outcome is Republican supermajorities on Capitol Hill and President Desantis in the White House.

Without as much rise in vaccination rates as could have been accomplished by less draconian methods.

Would it be worth it? Enough Sanderistas were convinced that he was the only possible choice, talking trash about Hillary and writing in Sanders and just "refusing on principle to vote", that we wound up with Trump. Leftist ideological purists didn't just shoot us in our own foot. It was a self inflicted gut shot.

I don't want that to happen again. But it might. I think it very likely if Biden is pressured into imposing a C19 vaccination mandate.
Tom

Or: All of Trump supporters and their ilk are dead.

I don't see that as a positive outcome.

 

[Elixir]

I suppose we could just let COVID run rampant among those who chose not to be vaccinated and hope/pray that those of us who are vaccinated/boosted/masked, etc. don't also get sick and that it doesn't totally destroy our health care system because all of our health care workers are burnt out permanently (as many are close to being) and that it only takes out fascists and not actual thinking people with a conscience

While I see lotsa problems with that as an approach, it is in fact what is happening albeit in slow motion.
Of the staff personnel I know at the pool where I swim, there is only one who remains unvaccinated, out of fear. She’s allergic to everything, has a vaguely “compromised immune system” and by her own verbose telling, spends much of her life almost dying from this, that or the other thing. Over the last month, the ENTIRE staff has gotten The Rona except two. And she’s one of them. Lucky for her. I suspect that if there’s even a small amount of truth to her her extravagant claims of vulnerabilities to COVID vaccines, she’d have a real hard time with actual COVID.

She also gleefully and randomly proclaimed her direct descendency from Edward III on about the second time I met her. I did not have the heart to tell her … about that.

The moral of the story being, we’re never going to compete with clickbait and conspiracy theories to sway the opinions and actions of a large swath of the public.

We are all going to be exposed to some COVID variant if we live long enough. Those who fail to reduce their own vulnerability by failure to get vaxed or use masks, will continue to sicken and die at obscenely large multiples of the rate afflicting the fully vaxed and careful. It’s not even necessary to go to any lengths to make that happen.

We should actually be protective toward the unvaxed while we “let COVID run rampant” in order to avoid overwhelming the HC system.
They’ll get sick soon enough.

 

[Toni]

I suppose we could just let COVID run rampant among those who chose not to be vaccinated and hope/pray that those of us who are vaccinated/boosted/masked, etc. don't also get sick and that it doesn't totally destroy our health care system because all of our health care workers are burnt out permanently (as many are close to being) and that it only takes out fascists and not actual thinking people with a conscience

While I see lotsa problems with that as an approach, it is in fact what is happening albeit in slow motion.
Of the staff personnel I know at the pool where I swim, there is only one who remains unvaccinated, out of fear. She’s allergic to everything, has a vaguely “compromised immune system” and by her own verbose telling, spends much of her life almost dying from this, that or the other thing. Over the last month, the ENTIRE staff has gotten The Rona except two. And she’s one of them. Lucky for her. I suspect that if there’s even a small amount of truth to her her extravagant claims of vulnerabilities to COVID vaccines, she’d have a real hard time with actual COVID.

She also gleefully and randomly proclaimed her direct descendency from Edward III on about the second time I met her. I did not have the heart to tell her … about that.

The moral of the story being, we’re never going to compete with clickbait and conspiracy theories to sway the opinions and actions of a large swath of the public.

We are all going to be exposed to some COVID variant if we live long enough. Those who fail to reduce their own vulnerability by failure to get vaxed or use masks, will continue to sicken and die at obscenely large multiples of the rate afflicting the fully vaxed and careful. It’s not even necessary to go to any lengths to make that happen.

We should actually be protective toward the unvaxed while we “let COVID run rampant” in order to avoid overwhelming the HC system.
They’ll get sick soon enough.

My point exactly: we're already letting COVID run rampant and some are getting sick with breakthrough infections and the anti-truth crowd scream in delight: SEE I TOLD YOU IT WOULDN'T WORK. It's not working out in our favor to continue to do what we have been doing.

A friend of mine has well established allergies and sensitivities to some components common in most vaccines. So: She worked on her doctor to agree to do allergy testing on COVID vaccine components until they established that one of them was suitable for her. She does have some increased risk due to an autoimmune condition and her husband is older so it was important to her to be vaccinated if at all possible. Most people don't have the financial/insurance resources she does nor the determination to be vaccinated if at all possible as soon as possible. Some people would rather die of kidney failure than accept the vaccine as a condition of receiving a transplant.

 

[ZiprHead]

A friend of mine has well established allergies and sensitivities to some components common in most vaccines. So: She worked on her doctor to agree to do allergy testing on COVID vaccine components until they established that one of them was suitable for her. She does have some increased risk due to an autoimmune condition and her husband is older so it was important to her to be vaccinated if at all possible. Most people don't have the financial/insurance resources she does nor the determination to be vaccinated if at all possible as soon as possible. Some people would rather die of kidney failure than accept the vaccine as a condition of receiving a transplant.

That's very cool that her doctor would go through all that for her.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Repeat all over the country.

Now picture this.
The mandate is such a disaster that the sociopolitical outcome is Republican supermajorities on Capitol Hill and President Desantis in the White House.

Without as much rise in vaccination rates as could have been accomplished by less draconian methods.

Would it be worth it? Enough Sanderistas were convinced that he was the only possible choice, talking trash about Hillary and writing in Sanders and just "refusing on principle to vote", that we wound up with Trump. Leftist ideological purists didn't just shoot us in our own foot. It was a self inflicted gut shot.

I don't want that to happen again. But it might. I think it very likely if Biden is pressured into imposing a C19 vaccination mandate.
Tom

What country do you live in? SCOTUS ruled Biden couldn't tell Corporations that made Federal bucks they need to ensure that their workforce is either vaccinated or Covid-19 negative through testing.

How in the heck do you think a Covid-19 vaccine mandate would pass muster with that court? There have been no mandates, there will be no mandates. And still the anti-vaxxers are complaining. And they are poisoning more and more people with their stupidity. Saw my Sister go from one camp to the other via all the anti-vax bullshit out there, not because of anything Fauci said.

 

[Toni]

A friend of mine has well established allergies and sensitivities to some components common in most vaccines. So: She worked on her doctor to agree to do allergy testing on COVID vaccine components until they established that one of them was suitable for her. She does have some increased risk due to an autoimmune condition and her husband is older so it was important to her to be vaccinated if at all possible. Most people don't have the financial/insurance resources she does nor the determination to be vaccinated if at all possible as soon as possible. Some people would rather die of kidney failure than accept the vaccine as a condition of receiving a transplant.

That's very cool that her doctor would go through all that for her.

Yeah, she's kind of a force of nature. And she has resources which really makes a lot of difference. It shouldn't but it does.

 

[Metaphor]

Yes, you are smart to have protected yourself. What you seem to fail to grasp is that the fact that some people in Australia and elsewhere are choosing NOT to be vaccinated has given the virus ample opportunity to mutate and produce variants that are able to elude the vaccine that you have received.

That is why there are break through infections.

There are break through infections because the vaccine is not perfect, even against the original strain, it was possible to get infected after vaccination and pass it on.

During this delay in vaccination, more virus spread, with symptomatic patients and also asymptomatic individuals who had no idea they were infected. And of course, some people simply were never going to be vaccinated.

Repeat all over the country.

This is how a pandemic continues with more resistant variants.

The pandemic, of course, will become endemic. Every country in the world will need to live with ongoing COVID, and we will deal with it the way we accept deaths every year from seasonal flu.

 

[Toni]

Yes, you are smart to have protected yourself. What you seem to fail to grasp is that the fact that some people in Australia and elsewhere are choosing NOT to be vaccinated has given the virus ample opportunity to mutate and produce variants that are able to elude the vaccine that you have received.

That is why there are break through infections.

There are break through infections because the vaccine is not perfect, even against the original strain, it was possible to get infected after vaccination and pass it on.

During this delay in vaccination, more virus spread, with symptomatic patients and also asymptomatic individuals who had no idea they were infected. And of course, some people simply were never going to be vaccinated.

Repeat all over the country.

This is how a pandemic continues with more resistant variants.

The pandemic, of course, will become endemic. Every country in the world will need to live with ongoing COVID, and we will deal with it the way we accept deaths every year from seasonal flu.

No vaccine is ever perfect. There are always some breakthrough infections. In the case of COVID19, the virus has mutated in those who are not vaccinated, so we have multiple strains active, some of which are less controlled by current vaccine.