Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

[Metaphor]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

 

[Toni]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

And yet, Franco did not believe he was arrested. He did not act arrested. He stood up after he had been sat down and moved towards the police officers. He offered to be cuffed. He clearly believed that Husain was arrested, most probably because Husain was face down with two officers on top of him, his hands cuffed behind his back.

As far as anyone has been able to document, only Husain was detained.

 

[Gospel]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

With Franko it's debatable, with Husain it's clear cut. If you familiarise yourself with US law you'd know this.

 

[Metaphor]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

And yet, Franco did not believe he was arrested. And clearly believed that Husain was arrested.

So what? There is a fact of the matter and Franco's beliefs about that fact are irrelevant.

 

[Metaphor]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

With Franko it's debatable, with Husain it's clear cut. If you familiarise yourself with US law you'd know this.

Force was used against Franco and a reasonable person would believe he was not free to leave. The video footage shows the female officer touching Franco on the chest after he has been seated in a manner consistent with the officer declaring 'stay there'. In any case, Franco did not leave.

I don't know what happened after the video ended and how long either boy was detained by police. I would expect that they'd be detained until a parent or guardian came to collect them.

 

[atrib]

Something bad happened here. I'm just not sure what it was. And I'm sure as hell not trusting modern media to tell me the truth about it.
Tom

What we do know for sure is that the police treated the black kid very differently from how they treated the white kid. It is possible there is a lawful reason for this disparity which doesn't involve racial bias, but its very unlikely in my opinion.

 

[Gospel]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

With Franko it's debatable, with Husain it's clear cut. If you familiarise yourself with US law you'd know this.

Force was used against Franco and a reasonable person would believe he was not free to leave. The video footage shows the female officer touching Franco on the chest after he has been seated in a manner consistent with the officer declaring 'stay there'. In any case, Franco did not leave.

I don't know what happened after the video ended and how long either boy was detained by police. I would expect that they'd be detained until a parent or guardian came to collect them.

(whispering in your ear) The US police want victims of a crime to stick around to take their statement. They don't usually arrest victims but they do want to make sure they feel secure now that the police have arrived and don't leave so they can take the victims' statements to use as evidence. That's why according to the video it's debatable.

 

[Metaphor]

(whispering in your ear) The US police want victims of a crime to stick around to take their statement. They don't usually arrest victims but they do want to make sure they feel secure now that the police have arrived and don't leave so they can take the victims' statements to use as evidence. That's why according to the video it's debatable.

So...you believe the police regarded Franco as the victim of a crime and Husain as the criminal? And they detained Franco to get a statement and they detained Husain because they were going to press charges?

Do you have any evidence of this?

 

[Gospel]

(whispering in your ear) The US police want victims of a crime to stick around to take their statement. They don't usually arrest victims but they do want to make sure they feel secure now that the police have arrived and don't leave so they can take the victims' statements to use as evidence. That's why according to the video it's debatable.

So...you believe the police regarded Franco as the victim of a crime and Husain as the criminal? And they detained Franco to get a statement and they detained Husain because they were going to press charges?

Do you have any evidence of this?

Does not the video evidence make that possible?

 

[atrib]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

And yet, Franco did not believe he was arrested. And clearly believed that Husain was arrested.

So what? There is a fact of the matter and Franco's beliefs about that fact are irrelevant.

Wrong again. Husain's arrest was clear cut, but Franco's was not. Franco himself did not believe that he was placed under arrest. For cases like this where this question has been raised before, time and time again US courts have ruled that it is the belief of a "reasonable person" interacting with the police as to whether they were free to leave that goes towards establishing whether the interaction qualifies as an arrest. Franco has stated that he was not placed under arrest. Based on this statement alone, a judge would likely have found that Franco was never placed under arrest at any point during the event. Please do your fucking due diligence before you pontificate on the law.

 

[Metaphor]

Franco has stated that he was not placed under arrest. Based on this statement alone, a judge would likely have found that Franco was never placed under arrest at any point during the event.

The law talks about reasonable belief, not actual belief. The law (as described) also does not talk about whether someobody believes they are 'arrested' but whether it would be reasonable for them to believe they are not free to go.

Franco was put on to the couch and the female cop appears to have indicated to him 'stay there'. I would say a reasonable person would believe they were not free to leave.

Please do your fucking due diligence before you pontificate on the law.

I'll leave you with your own advice.

 

[Metaphor]

Does not the video evidence make that possible?

The video evidence is consistent with a number of possibilities, especially for events that occur after the video ends.

You've been speculating that Husain was 'detained' after the video ends in a way Franco was not. The boys could have both been there until a parent came for them, or maybe one was let go and not the other, or maybe both were let go quickly.

I am not arguing for or against any particular scenario I am trying to find out what actually happened.

 

[laughing dog]

Does not the video evidence make that possible?

The video evidence is consistent with a number of possibilities, especially for events that occur after the video ends.

You've been speculating that Husain was 'detained' after the video ends in a way Franco was not. The boys could have both been there until a parent came for them, or maybe one was let go and not the other, or maybe both were let go quickly.

I am not arguing for or against any particular scenario I am trying to find out what actually happened.

Then read published reports instead of engaging in pedantic quibbling.

You do not dispute that the children were treated differently. Given the evidence, a number of posters have reached the conclusion based on the information to date that that differential treatment is due to racism/bigotry. None of those posters claim to be omniscient.

Given the information to date, do you have an alternative explanation for that acknowledged differential treatment? If so, what is it? If not, spend more time searching the internet to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.

 

[Metaphor]

Given the information to date, do you have an alternative explanation for that acknowledged differential treatment? If so, what is it? If not, spend more time searching the internet to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.

Yes, I do. Some of those alternative explanations involve speculation on what the cops were told before they attended the fight. Some of those explanations involve unconscious bias by one cop and not the other. Some of those explanations don't involve unconscious bias on anyone's part.

But I am certainly not going to describe those alternatives to you.

 

[ZiprHead]

The video evidence is consistent with a number of possibilities, especially for events that occur after the video ends.

Yet those possibilities remain unsaid.

 

[laughing dog]

Given the information to date, do you have an alternative explanation for that acknowledged differential treatment? If so, what is it? If not, spend more time searching the internet to fill in the gaps in your knowledge.

Yes, I do. Some of those alternative explanations involve speculation on what the cops were told before they attended the fight. Some of those explanations involve unconscious bias by one cop and not the other. Some of those explanations don't involve unconscious bias on anyone's part.

But I am certainly not going to describe those alternatives to you.

A reasonable conclusion is that you have nothing to discuss.

 

[Toni]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

And yet, Franco did not believe he was arrested. And clearly believed that Husain was arrested.

So what? There is a fact of the matter and Franco's beliefs about that fact are irrelevant.

So are yours.

And Franco was there. You were not.

Your beliefs are irrelevant.

 

[Toni]

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.

I have explained that under each definition of 'arrested' provided, both Husain and Franco would count as having been arrested or neither of them would have. Therefore, it is misleading to say that Husain was 'arrested' but Franco was not.

With Franko it's debatable, with Husain it's clear cut. If you familiarise yourself with US law you'd know this.

Force was used against Franco and a reasonable person would believe he was not free to leave. The video footage shows the female officer touching Franco on the chest after he has been seated in a manner consistent with the officer declaring 'stay there'. In any case, Franco did not leave.

I don't know what happened after the video ended and how long either boy was detained by police. I would expect that they'd be detained until a parent or guardian came to collect them.

Franco did NOT ‘stay there.’ He stood up and approached the officers, nearly standing over them at one point.

A lot of officers would have considered that threatening. Especially if he were under arrest.

 

[Metaphor]

Franco did NOT ‘stay there.’ He stood up and approached the officers, nearly standing over them at one point.

Franco stood up, but he did not leave. Nevertheless, you are rebutting some statement I did not make. He was told to 'stay there', which a reasonable person would interpret as 'you are not free to leave'. If a cop had just told me to 'stay there', I would not feel free to leave. Would you?

 

[Metaphor]

So are yours.

And Franco was there. You were not.

Your beliefs are irrelevant.

You think that Franco's beliefs about him being arrested determine whether he was arrested. You are wrong.