Stephen Breyer to retire at the end of this court session.

[lpetrich]

How's this for pettiness?

Ted Cruz walks out during applause for Ketanji Brown Jackson - "The moment, which was captured in a video being widely shared on social media, was met with criticism online."

Republicans Walk Out As Ketanji Brown Jackson Confirmed to SCOTUS

• The Senate confirmed Ketanji Brown Jackson to the Supreme Court on Thursday.
• Video footage showed some GOP senators walking out during applause for her historic confirmation.
• Republican Sen. Mitt Romney stayed in the Senate chamber and joined the applause.

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

 

[Copernicus]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

 

[TomC]

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

I understand that you're from a faraway place where up is down and such.

But can you look at the last four SCOTUS judges and say this with a straight face?
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

I don't like racial discrimination for or against anybody.

I am quite sure, however, that in this instance you don't know what 'most' white people want.

 

[Metaphor]

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

I understand that you're from a faraway place where up is down and such.

But can you look at the last four SCOTUS judges and say this with a straight face?
Tom

Say what with a straight face? That some people think black people, and black women in particular, should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles?

Yes, I can say that with a straight face.

 

[TomC]

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

I understand that you're from a faraway place where up is down and such.

But can you look at the last four SCOTUS judges and say this with a straight face?
Tom

Say what with a straight face? That some people think black people, and black women in particular, should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles?

Yes, I can say that with a straight face.

Say it again.
"Black women are preferenced for high office in the U.S."

Tom

 

[Metaphor]

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

I understand that you're from a faraway place where up is down and such.

But can you look at the last four SCOTUS judges and say this with a straight face?
Tom

Say what with a straight face? That some people think black people, and black women in particular, should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles?

Yes, I can say that with a straight face.

Say it again.
"Black women are preferenced for high office in the U.S."

Tom

KJB was preferenced based on her black-ness and woman-ness. That's who the thread is about. And some people think black people, and black women in particular, should continue to be preferenced in the same way she was.

I don't know how obvious Biden could have made it. He said he would look for a black woman.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Metaphor, does this pedantic derail have anything to do with the subject of the conversation? Do you believe hiring managers take into account the traditional and historic origins of people's names when making hiring decisions.

I think he has a valid point.

Did they actually test for the effects of white/black names, or did they test for the effects of common/strange names?

 

[Copernicus]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

I don't like racial discrimination for or against anybody.

I am quite sure, however, that in this instance you don't know what 'most' white people want.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on that point. I've lived in America a lot longer than you have, and I've seen the surveys and polls, not to mention elections. The results of that study were not in the least surprising. All you have to go on is TV and movie entertainment. I'll refrain from trying to lecture you on  Racism in Australia. I suspect that you've never been on the wrong end of it, but you likely know Australian attitudes towards the subject than I do.

 

[Copernicus]

Did they actually test for the effects of white/black names, or did they test for the effects of common/strange names?

According to the article, they tested for effects of common names associated with major ethnic groups such as African Americans. They could not have tested for every conceivable minority community in the US, but, if there were a similar effect, it wouldn't have undermined their central finding about the groups they did test for.

You can achieve the same effect by means other than names. When I taught introductory linguistics classes, I used to play tapes of different American accents and have students make judgments about intelligence, level of education, race, economic class, etc. I used this technique to introduce them to the topic of sociolinguistics. One of the tracks sounded exactly like a male African American, and he was almost always judged to be black and poorly educated. It was, in fact, the natural dialect of a well-known specialist in Indo-European languages who had been a department chair for years before moving to Rutgers, where he became a dean. His native dialect just happened to be from the deep south, although he came from a very fair-skinned irish family and had a lot of freckles. People jump to conclusions on the basis of superficial characteristics like names, skin color, accent, etc. Not a surprising discovery.

 

[Toni]

While it's harder to herd cats than it is to herd sheep, I'm glad that the Democratic Party is a big tent party,

I'll agree and take it a step further.

It's much harder to herd Americans* than TeaPartier Republicans.
Tom

* I don't like using the term American if it doesn't include everyone living on two continents. But when I use "USonian" my vocabulary becomes the issue instead of my opinion.

American is correct usage.

 

[Elixir]

when I use "USonian" my vocabulary becomes the issue instead of my opinion.

American is correct usage.

Murkin.

 

[Toni]

when I use "USonian" my vocabulary becomes the issue instead of my opinion.

American is correct usage.

Murkin.

No, American. Murkin is far too easily confused with merkin.

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

I don't like racial discrimination for or against anybody.

I am quite sure, however, that in this instance you don't know what 'most' white people want.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on that point. I've lived in America a lot longer than you have, and I've seen the surveys and polls, not to mention elections. The results of that study were not in the least surprising. All you have to go on is TV and movie entertainment. I'll refrain from trying to lecture you on  Racism in Australia. I suspect that you've never been on the wrong end of it, but you likely know Australian attitudes towards the subject than I do.

Your implication that most white people would be 'happy' for public positions to be restricted to white people is unevidenced.

Your speculation that I have never been on the receiving end of racism depends on whether you believe racism can happen to people determined to be white.

 

[Toni]

One result: In general, résumés with White (read European) names received 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. Bertrand and Mullainathan also found that the amount of discrimination was the same across occupations and industries.

Emily and Greg are not some broad representative 'White' 'European' names. They are Anglo-Celtic names. Europe has countries other than the United Kingdom. Some of these countries even speak languages other than English.

Hairsplitting that would make a lawyer proud.

I researched those names in The Meaning and History of First Names - Behind the Name and the truth is very different.

It may surprise you that Europe has many countries and many cultures. Indeed, the countries and cultures in it are different enough from each other that the two bloodiest wars in human history originated there.

The very source you link to says that 'Emily' is the English feminine form of Aemilius and 'Gregory' is the English form of Latin Gregorius. English the language and England (or UK) the country.

How many of these allegedly representative 'European' names on these résumés were Tvrtko or Agnieszka or Uxía or Serhei?

I'm certain that the names on the resumes were proportionate to the number of Tvrtko, Agnieszka, Uxia and Serhei's who applied.

A great many immigrants to the US either change their names or adopt more anglicized versions of their names as English is the major language spoken in the US and much of US culture is related to culture in Great Britain rather than whatever Romania was called in the 1700's.

 

[Toni]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

I don't like racial discrimination for or against anybody.

I am quite sure, however, that in this instance you don't know what 'most' white people want.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on that point. I've lived in America a lot longer than you have, and I've seen the surveys and polls, not to mention elections. The results of that study were not in the least surprising. All you have to go on is TV and movie entertainment. I'll refrain from trying to lecture you on  Racism in Australia. I suspect that you've never been on the wrong end of it, but you likely know Australian attitudes towards the subject than I do.

Your implication that most white people would be 'happy' for public positions to be restricted to white people is unevidenced.

Your speculation that I have never been on the receiving end of racism depends on whether you believe racism can happen to people determined to be white.

Oh, in the US, there is PLENTY of evidence that A LOT of white people would be much happier if public positions were restricted to white people. I'd invite you to my family reunion for some evidence but we don't have those much any more. I will say that I have steadfastly refused a friend request from a cousin who, for the duration of Obama's tenure as POTUS had a confederate flag superimposed over an image of the White House as his background for his Facebook page. Not good enough? For a very recent example, please view the confirmation hearings of Kentaji Brown Jackson.

 

[Elixir]

when I use "USonian" my vocabulary becomes the issue instead of my opinion.

American is correct usage.

Murkin.

No, American. Murkin is far too easily confused with merkin.

My bad - it’s ‘Murkin.

 

[Metaphor]

Nobody disputes the fact that Ketanji Brown Jackson's name identifies her likely racial identity and therefore leads people to make assumptions about her on that basis without ever even meeting her. The fact is that race and gender were factors in getting her the nomination during Biden's presidency, but they would have been a factor in preventing her nomination for well over two centuries of American history before now. Ideally, they wouldn't be a factor at all, but reality doesn't work that way.

There are of course people who do not agree that 'ideally', KBJ's ethnicity and sex should not be a factor. They champion the idea that black people and black women in particular should continue to be preferenced for high profile roles.

There are also, of course, white supremacists who would gladly murder her for having assumed such a high profile role. The world is full of all sorts of people. What's your point other than the fact that you appear not to like it when racial discrimination goes against white people? This was a historic Supreme Court appointment precisely because she broke a barrier that most white people were perfectly happy to leave in place.

I don't like racial discrimination for or against anybody.

I am quite sure, however, that in this instance you don't know what 'most' white people want.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on that point. I've lived in America a lot longer than you have, and I've seen the surveys and polls, not to mention elections. The results of that study were not in the least surprising. All you have to go on is TV and movie entertainment. I'll refrain from trying to lecture you on  Racism in Australia. I suspect that you've never been on the wrong end of it, but you likely know Australian attitudes towards the subject than I do.

Your implication that most white people would be 'happy' for public positions to be restricted to white people is unevidenced.

Your speculation that I have never been on the receiving end of racism depends on whether you believe racism can happen to people determined to be white.

Oh, in the US, there is PLENTY of evidence that A LOT of white people would be much happier if public positions were restricted to white people. I'd invite you to my family reunion for some evidence but we don't have those much any more. I will say that I have steadfastly refused a friend request from a cousin who, for the duration of Obama's tenure as POTUS had a confederate flag superimposed over an image of the White House as his background for his Facebook page. Not good enough? For a very recent example, please view the confirmation hearings of Kentaji Brown Jackson.

Oh yes. So most white people would be happy to have open anti-black discrimination because you know white people who would be happy?

 

[Metaphor]

One result: In general, résumés with White (read European) names received 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. Bertrand and Mullainathan also found that the amount of discrimination was the same across occupations and industries.

Emily and Greg are not some broad representative 'White' 'European' names. They are Anglo-Celtic names. Europe has countries other than the United Kingdom. Some of these countries even speak languages other than English.

Hairsplitting that would make a lawyer proud.

I researched those names in The Meaning and History of First Names - Behind the Name and the truth is very different.

It may surprise you that Europe has many countries and many cultures. Indeed, the countries and cultures in it are different enough from each other that the two bloodiest wars in human history originated there.

The very source you link to says that 'Emily' is the English feminine form of Aemilius and 'Gregory' is the English form of Latin Gregorius. English the language and England (or UK) the country.

How many of these allegedly representative 'European' names on these résumés were Tvrtko or Agnieszka or Uxía or Serhei?

I'm certain that the names on the resumes were proportionate to the number of Tvrtko, Agnieszka, Uxia and Serhei's who applied.

A great many immigrants to the US either change their names or adopt more anglicized versions of their names as English is the major language spoken in the US and much of US culture is related to culture in Great Britain rather than whatever Romania was called in the 1700's.

That's okay then. As long as non-Anglo Europeans agree to ape Englishness, the pro-white club door is open to them, too.

I assume there should be no such requirement for black Americans to ape Englishness.