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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Ground combat causes a lot more civilian casualties than what Israel was doing from the air.
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I'd like to see some confirmation of that other than just a dry statement.
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I'm aware of only one incident that might reasonably be described as a city block full of people dying--and it was from indiscriminate shooting by Hamas. The Israeli troops were disguised, they couldn't have been carrying heavy weapons.
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Another dry statement that doesn't provide the confirmation I asked for.
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Unfortunately, Google isn't good at specialized but basic information.
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But you said you already had the information. Were you just blowing smoke up our asses when you said this?

I also provided an authoritative source that contradicted you.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Urban Myths? Exploring assumptions in the literature of urban Warfare: Part 2

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????

article said:
In 1994, the Russians were invading a city with a high ethnic Russian population, so, while they bombarded, they refrained from advancing behind the curtain of explosives (which historically had such a proven protective effect). And the Somalis simply didn’t own the ordnance. In its absence they both suffered fearsome casualties. The Russians returned to Chechnya in 1999 and reverted to the proven formula, effectively destroying the city of Grozny - and were condemned for doing so by the international community.
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They claim urban warfare isn't particularly bloody, yet they aren't finding examples of it other than where the city has already been smashed from the skies. Of course it's not that bloody if you're just mopping up.
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You're ignoring the entirety of the rest of the article.

Israel still wants our 2000 lb bombs. Biden has refused to provide them for humanitarian puposes.
 
TomC said:
Shadowy Man said:
So, in your mind, Germans, as a whole, invaded Poland and committed the holocaust because the volks just trying to get along didn’t push back against Hitler?
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So, in your mind, Allies like GB and the Yankees are guilty of mass murders because they didn't distinguish between German civilians and the leadership?
Tom
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As a whole? No.
 
I'm just curious, if Israel was to stop Hamas, what method would be better, and less traumatic for the Palestinian people, than what is being done now? Negotiating with them is a waste of time. The fact that they keep using the Palestinian people as human shields, proves that the sooner they're gone the better. Backing off is just encouraging Hamas to keep using cilivilians as human shields. In spite of this Israel is going to extreme lengths to avoid Palestinian civilian casualities. If Hamas uses refugee camps as a rocket staging bases, Israel will hit back. Anything else would be suicide for Israel.

I find the Hamas apologetics in this thread saddening. It's so calous.
 
DrZoidberg said:
I'm just curious, if Israel was to stop Hamas, what method would be better, and less traumatic for the Palestinian people, than what is being done now? Negotiating with them is a waste of time. The fact that they keep using the Palestinian people as human shields, proves that the sooner they're gone the better. Backing off is just encouraging Hamas to keep using cilivilians as human shields. In spite of this Israel is going to extreme lengths to avoid Palestinian civilian casualities. If Hamas uses refugee camps as a rocket staging bases, Israel will hit back. Anything else would be suicide for Israel.

I find the Hamas apologetics in this thread saddening. It's so calous.
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This perspective makes far more sense than the rhetoric suggesting that all Palestinians deserve consequences simply because some voted for Hamas. I fully support this approach. What I can't support is when people fail to distinguish between Hamas as an organization and the Palestinian individuals who voted for or against them.
 
Gospel said:
DrZoidberg said:
I'm just curious, if Israel was to stop Hamas, what method would be better, and less traumatic for the Palestinian people, than what is being done now? Negotiating with them is a waste of time. The fact that they keep using the Palestinian people as human shields, proves that the sooner they're gone the better. Backing off is just encouraging Hamas to keep using cilivilians as human shields. In spite of this Israel is going to extreme lengths to avoid Palestinian civilian casualities. If Hamas uses refugee camps as a rocket staging bases, Israel will hit back. Anything else would be suicide for Israel.

I find the Hamas apologetics in this thread saddening. It's so calous.
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This perspective makes far more sense than the rhetoric suggesting that all Palestinians deserve consequences simply because some voted for Hamas.
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Nobody thinks that. I doubt even the most rabid Zionists do. It's just a straw man.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Gospel said:

This perspective makes far more sense than the rhetoric suggesting that all Palestinians deserve consequences simply because some voted for Hamas.
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Nobody thinks that. I doubt even the most rabid Zionists do. It's just a straw man.
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What do you make of an opinion such as this:

70 years of history suggest that Gazans, as a whole, prefer violence and ethnic cleansing over peace and prosperity.
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Does it not seem as if all Gazans are lumped in with Hamas, when a phrase like “as a whole” is used for this population?

Things get callous and dangerous when we lump people together as a whole with their worst elements. There always seems to be right wing pushback against this type of thinking when it’s applied to police or Trump supporters.
 
DrZoidberg said:
I'm just curious, if Israel was to stop Hamas, what method would be better, and less traumatic for the Palestinian people, than what is being done now? Negotiating with them is a waste of time. The fact that they keep using the Palestinian people as human shields, proves that the sooner they're gone the better. Backing off is just encouraging Hamas to keep using cilivilians as human shields. In spite of this Israel is going to extreme lengths to avoid Palestinian civilian casualities. If Hamas uses refugee camps as a rocket staging bases, Israel will hit back. Anything else would be suicide for Israel.
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The first step to stopping Hamas is coming to the realization that Israel isn't stop Hamas.

Iran has to. How many bombs and dead in a year... and we still have Hamas. Hamas is weaker, but it still exists.

I find it tragic that when things are difficult, sometimes people triple down on what hasn't worked before as the obvious and only answer. Stopping Hamas is a diplomatic thing. Not a military thing,
DrZoidberg said:
I find the Hamas apologetics in this thread saddening. It's so calous.
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I find 5000 or so posts talking past each other a waste of time myself.
 
Shadowy Man said:
DrZoidberg said:
Gospel said:

This perspective makes far more sense than the rhetoric suggesting that all Palestinians deserve consequences simply because some voted for Hamas.
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Nobody thinks that. I doubt even the most rabid Zionists do. It's just a straw man.
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What do you make of an opinion such as this:

70 years of history suggest that Gazans, as a whole, prefer violence and ethnic cleansing over peace and prosperity.
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Does it not seem as if all Gazans are lumped in with Hamas, when a phrase like “as a whole” is used for this population?

Things get callous and dangerous when we lump people together as a whole with their worst elements. There always seems to be right wing pushback against this type of thinking when it’s applied to police or Trump supporters.
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I understood it that way too, but clearly, I was mistaken, as DrZoidberg just clarified.

Edit: For the record I know that quote is not from DrZoidberg. That's a TomC quote.
 
Shadowy Man said:
Does it not seem as if all Gazans are lumped in with Hamas, when a phrase like “as a whole” is used for this population?
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If you are running it through your "violent terrorist apologetics" filter it probably does seem like that.
Hamas are Gazans. Gazans are Palestinians. Palestinians are part of Israel's Muslim neighbors. As a whole they've been violently attacking Israel for decades.

Similarly, the violent attack last October and the ongoing holding kidnapping victims as hostages means that Hamas lead Gazans are still at war with Israel.

Also, referring to the Hamas lead Gazan's use of Gazan human shields as a disproportionate response to that by Israel is yet more Hamas (violent Muslim terrorists) apologetics.
Tom
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
DrZoidberg said:
Hamas apologetics
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???
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Haters gonna hate. What you gonna do?
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One thing I did was to stop blaming Israel for defending themselves against the violent haters that they are surrounded by.

Cut the Hamas apologetics.

It's a start.
Tom
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Perhaps you could actually point to an example of "Hams apologetics" in this thread, so that people may understand what you mean. Frankly, my understanding of apologetics indicates that no one is this thread is defending Hamas or its actions.
 
TomC said:
Shadowy Man said:
Does it not seem as if all Gazans are lumped in with Hamas, when a phrase like “as a whole” is used for this population?
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If you are running it through your "violent terrorist apologetics" filter it probably does seem like that.
Hamas are Gazans. Gazans are Palestinians. Palestinians are part of Israel's Muslim neighbors. As a whole they've been violently attacking Israel for decades.
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True. Not the whole story but true.
TomC said:
Similarly, the violent attack last October and the ongoing holding kidnapping victims as hostages means that Hamas lead Gazans are still at war with Israel.
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True. Not the whole story, but true.
TomC said:
Also, referring to the Hamas lead Gazan's use of Gazan human shields as a disproportionate response to that by Israel is yet more Hamas (violent Muslim terrorists) apologetics.
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Perhaps you could rephrase that word salad so that it makes sense. It reads as if you are saying it is Hamas apologetics to refer to their use of human shields is a disportionate response to Israel's behavior. I think you would agree that it their behavior is disproportionate to Israel's tactics because it is uncalled for.

Now, if you mean that observing that the Israeli tactics cause magnitudes more destruction, injury and death than Hamas is Hamas apologetics, well, that is simply inane,. It is disproportionate by definition. You may think that disproprotion is justified, but that does not mean it is still not disproportionate.

Tom C said:
One thing I did was to stop blaming Israel for defending themselves against the violent haters that they are surrounded by.

Cut the Hamas apologetics.

It's a start.
Tom
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So you response to Haters gonna hate is to lay on more hate. Got it.
 
Shadowy Man said:
DrZoidberg said:
Gospel said:

This perspective makes far more sense than the rhetoric suggesting that all Palestinians deserve consequences simply because some voted for Hamas.
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Nobody thinks that. I doubt even the most rabid Zionists do. It's just a straw man.
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What do you make of an opinion such as this:

70 years of history suggest that Gazans, as a whole, prefer violence and ethnic cleansing over peace and prosperity.
Click to expand...

Does it not seem as if all Gazans are lumped in with Hamas, when a phrase like “as a whole” is used for this population?

Things get callous and dangerous when we lump people together as a whole with their worst elements. There always seems to be right wing pushback against this type of thinking when it’s applied to police or Trump supporters.
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Look at how it's phrased. Yes, the history of Gazans does suggest that. That still doesn't mean that Gazans are beyond the ability to change.

What I think that sentence wants to remind us of is that we shouldn't ignore evidence, just because we have a favourite ideological pet hobbyhorse.

As I see it, the fundamental flaw of Palestinian thinking is the belief that they are part of a dominant majority, (Muslims) who can threaten and terrorise Israel into submission. Which is a old Ottoman fantasy. The Muslim world has always been fractured. This is coupled with the narrative of Muslims (and colonials) resisting and defeating powerful colonial overlords, which also doesn't apply to Israel. These two powerful narratives are preventing Palestinians to accept that Jews are going to be their neighbours now.

These stories can change. Until they change Israel cannot afford to be complacent.

We often forget that the Muslim world sharply swung towards atheistic communism in the 60'ies to 80'ies and then swung back towards Islamism. Ie, Hegelian dialectics. Islam isn't an unchanging obstinate army of Jihad. The Middle-East is a region that has been in rapid and dramatic social and political changes the last hundred years. The Middle-East is going to keep changing. But right now it's a source of terrorism and instability. We shouldn't ignore that
 
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