Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Shadowy Man]

Then I guess the Israelis should just keep killing them until either they are all gone or they do want war to end. Is that the right answer?

Killing who? The violent Muslim extremists who have been attacking Israel for decades, including last October 7?

You keep saying "they" as though it's obvious who you're referring to, but it isn't.

“Gazans as a whole” as you say.

 

[TomC]

Then I guess the Israelis should just keep killing them until either they are all gone or they do want war to end. Is that the right answer?

Killing who? The violent Muslim extremists who have been attacking Israel for decades, including last October 7?

You keep saying "they" as though it's obvious who you're referring to, but it isn't.

“Gazans as a whole” as you say.

Did Gazans as a whole prefer peace and prosperity or violence against Israel?
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Then I guess the Israelis should just keep killing them until either they are all gone or they do want war to end. Is that the right answer?

Killing who? The violent Muslim extremists who have been attacking Israel for decades, including last October 7?

You keep saying "they" as though it's obvious who you're referring to, but it isn't.

“Gazans as a whole” as you say.

Did Gazans as a whole prefer peace and prosperity or violence against Israel?
Tom

You already told me the answer to that. They chose violence against Israel, just like Israelis as a whole chose to attack Gaza, and Americans as a whole elected Donald Trump.

 

[TomC]

They chose violence against Israel, just like Israelis as a whole chose to attack Gaza

You think that Israelis responding to yet another violent attack from their Muslim neighbors is choosing to attack them?
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

They chose violence against Israel, just like Israelis as a whole chose to attack Gaza

You think that Israelis responding to yet another violent attack from their Muslim neighbors is choosing to attack them?
Tom

Of course. It wasn’t an automatic response. I’m not saying it was the wrong choice. I do think they should defend themselves. I apologize for poor phrasing, I did not intend to say it was unprovoked if that’s how you read it. That’s not my point anyway, it’s more about the phrase “as a whole” and the implications of thinking about this situation in that way.

 

[TomC]

They chose violence against Israel, just like Israelis as a whole chose to attack Gaza

You think that Israelis responding to yet another violent attack from their Muslim neighbors is choosing to attack them?
Tom

Of course, it wasn’t an automatic response. I’m not saying it was the wrong choice. I do think they should defend themselves.

But without upsetting the Western muslimists?

We've got people claiming "I am Hamas!"

See how far a Gazan would get saying "I'm a Zionist" in a Muslim country.
We both know. Muslimists don't believe in diversity unless it supports their violence.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

They chose violence against Israel, just like Israelis as a whole chose to attack Gaza

You think that Israelis responding to yet another violent attack from their Muslim neighbors is choosing to attack them?
Tom

Of course, it wasn’t an automatic response. I’m not saying it was the wrong choice. I do think they should defend themselves.

But without upsetting the Western muslimists?

Am I saying that? I'm unfamiliar with the term "muslimist".

We've got people claiming "I am Hamas!"

See how far a Gazan would get saying "I'm a Zionist" in a Muslim country.
We both know. Muslimists don't believe in diversity unless it supports their violence.
Tom

Since I don't know what a "muslimist" is I'm not sure how to address this, if it even needed addressing by me.

 

[ZiprHead]

Taking civilians into account is required by international law.

Yes, but not to the degree that you are demanding.

Where have I specified a degree?

Urban warfare and violence

Urban warfare endangers the lives of civilians and the infrastructure they depend on, while its humanitarian consequences persist years after the fighting ends.

www.icrc.org

1. In order to better safeguard civilians and civilian infrastructure, parties to armed conflicts must rigorously apply and better comply with existing international humanitarian law, which is adapted to the major trends in warfare. The underlying principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution are critical in protecting civilians against the effects of hostilities in urban areas.
2. They must also urgently reassess their approach to operations in urban environments, including by reviewing urban warfare doctrines, training and planning procedures, tactics and choice of weapons. Protecting civilians must be made a strategic priority in the planning and conduct of military operations, as warring parties remain obliged to take all feasible precautions to avoid incidental harm to civilians.
3. Most importantly, they must avoid using heavy explosive weapons at all costs. Such weapons are designed to deliver large explosive force from a distance and over wide areas, which causes indiscriminate damage and makes them ill-adapted for use in urban and other population centres. They should not be used unless sufficient mitigation measures are taken to limit their wide-area effects and the subsequent risk for civilians.

Points 1 and 2 don't say what you think they say.

What do you think they say?

And you're missing what happened with the bombs. They are exploding underground. That makes a huge difference in their effect.

Earlier in the war we had multiple videos of bombs going off--you could see the blast zone and you could see the secondary effects of the tunnels collapsing well beyond the primary blast area. So long as the tunnel collapse range exceeds the blast range it's better to use the bigger booms.

‘Not seen since Vietnam’: Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs on Gaza, analysis shows

In the first month of its war in Gaza, Israel dropped hundreds of massive bombs, many of them capable of killing or wounding people more than 1,000 feet away, analysis by CNN and artificial intelligence company Synthetaic suggests.

Satellite imagery from those early days of the war reveals more than 500 impact craters over 12 meters (40 feet) in diameter, consistent with those left behind by 2,000-pound bombs. Those are four times heavier than the vast majority of the largest bombs the United States dropped on ISIS during the war against the extremist group in Syria and Iraq.

Weapons and warfare experts blame the extensive use of heavy munitions such as the 2,000-pound bomb for the soaring death toll. The population of Gaza is packed together much more tightly than almost anywhere else on earth, so the use of such heavy munitions has a profound effect.

“The use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area as densely populated as Gaza means it will take decades for communities to recover,” said John Chappell, advocacy and legal fellow at CIVIC, a DC-based group focused on minimizing civilian harm in conflict.

And we have video out of Lebanon that I have mentioned before. A bunch of people standing around filming themselves in front of a Hezbollah building that's about to go boom. They sure don't look scared and they sure don't look like anybody's making them be there. That means they must be sufficiently confident of the precision of the Israeli strike and that the boom would not be in a position to yeet things everywhere. I've seen other video without the selfies that likewise shows that the bombs are clearly exploding underneath the target--the buildings blow up, not out.

You have no idea about what those people were thinking.

If they were warned the building was about to be bombed why wouldn't Hezbollah leave too?

Or look at that video you posted of Israel destroying part of a Lebanese village. The charges were in the tunnels underneath. It's not Israel's fault that there are civilian buildings literally on top of military structures and the laws of war do not protect such structures.

This I agree with. But the village was evacuated and it was ground troops that that wired the tunnels for destruction.

 

[ZiprHead]

No one is saying civilian casualties need to be avoided altogether. But they should be minimised.

But anything Israel does you say is excessive.

Jeez, I just specified a tactic that I don't believe is excessive.

 

[ZiprHead]

2. Rules of Warfare: there should be rules and there are, but why is Israel the only one held to account for those rules?

We supply weapons to Israel. We don't supply weapons to Hamas. What do you expect us to do make Hamas accountable to those rules?

 

[TomC]

2. Rules of Warfare: there should be rules and there are, but why is Israel the only one held to account for those rules?

We supply weapons to Israel. We don't supply weapons to Hamas. What do you expect us to do make Hamas accountable to those rules?

Give Israel the go ahead to do what needs done.

Protect Israelis from violent Muslim authoritarians by whatever means necessary.

This disaster wouldn't have been so bad if Gazans had returned the Israelis they kidnapped a year ago. But no, we can't expect Muslims to have any ethics or be held to "international laws". They're way too special for such niceties. From the UN to the ICC, violent Muslim extremists can't be held accountable for anything.

So Israel has to do their own self protection on their own.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

2. Rules of Warfare: there should be rules and there are, but why is Israel the only one held to account for those rules?

We supply weapons to Israel. We don't supply weapons to Hamas. What do you expect us to do make Hamas accountable to those rules?

Give Israel the go ahead to do what needs done.

Israel doesn't need that from us. All they want are the weapons.

Protect Israelis from violent Muslim authoritarians by whatever means necessary.

This disaster wouldn't have been so bad if Gazans had returned the Israelis they kidnapped a year ago. But no, we can't expect Muslims to have any ethics or be held to "international laws". They're way too special for such niceties. From the UN to the ICC, violent Muslim extremists can't be held accountable for anything.

So Israel has to do their own self protection on their own.
Tom

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

 

[TomC]

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

Let me know when you can distinguish between Gazans and Hamas.

I don't think you can.
Tom

 

[Shadowy Man]

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

Let me know when you can distinguish between Gazans and Hamas.

I don't think you can.
Tom

I think the saying is “kill ‘em all and let God sort them out”.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

2. Rules of Warfare: there should be rules and there are, but why is Israel the only one held to account for those rules?

We supply weapons to Israel. We don't supply weapons to Hamas. What do you expect us to do make Hamas accountable to those rules?

Supply more weapons to Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

Let me know when you can distinguish between Gazans and Hamas.

I don't think you can.
Tom

Sounds rather bloodthirsty to me. But you do you.

 

[TomC]

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

Let me know when you can distinguish between Gazans and Hamas.

I don't think you can.
Tom

Sounds rather bloodthirsty to me. But you do you.

So, while you woke American people insist on keeping the war going, keep telling me how superior you are.
Tom

 

[Colonel Sanders]

There is no "All" here, but there is definitely "as a whole". Gazans as a whole prefer war to peace and prosperity or this wouldn't be happening.
Tom

One could make the same claim about Israelis as a whole, and it would be just as insightful.

Tell me again about how the vicious attacks on Palestinians forced them to launch a bunch of missiles and kidnap a bunch of people on October 7 last year.
Tom

I assume that people here know or at least should know the relatively recent nature of Israeli-Arab conflict.

But here are some dates to remember:

1948
1956
1967
1973

Let's also remember the 1972 Munich Olympics, hijackings, and the advent of suicide and car bombings.

Israel is a democracy. It provides rights and protections for all of its citizens. While same sex couples cannot get married in Israel, they can go to a country that does, come back to Israel, and the marriage will be recognized. Anyone wanna compare that to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, etc.?

Forgive me for not being able to have much sympathy for the plight of Muslim nations.

 

[laughing dog]

There is no "All" here, but there is definitely "as a whole". Gazans as a whole prefer war to peace and prosperity or this wouldn't be happening.
Tom

One could make the same claim about Israelis as a whole, and it would be just as insightful.

Tell me again about how the vicious attacks on Palestinians forced them to launch a bunch of missiles and kidnap a bunch of people on October 7 last year.
Tom

Perhaps if you explained why you feel that is a relevant response, we might have a fruitful discussion.

 

[laughing dog]

Why do you keep confusing Gazans with Hamas?

Let me know when you can distinguish between Gazans and Hamas.

I don't think you can.
Tom

I think any Gazan under the age of 5 is not Hamas for sure.