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If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

Toni said:
Really? I admit I assumed they were both competent adults and were aware that pregnancy could result from sexual intercourse. In which case, the male was as responsible fur the pregnancy as the woman. Of course she bears all risks to her health, her education and employment t opportunities, her standing in the community, etc.
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It seems I am totally wrong and indulging in a discussion which was not necessary at all. I seek my excuse from all members in the topic. ChatGPT at duckduckgo gave me this answer:

Rights of a child born of casual adult consensual sex in India

In India, the rights of a child born from casual adult consensual sex are primarily governed by various laws and principles that ensure the welfare and protection of children. Here are some key points regarding the rights of such children:

  1. Right to Identity: Every child has the right to a name and nationality. The birth of the child must be registered, and the child should be given a name.
  2. Right to Maintenance: Under the Hindu Adoption and Maintenance Act, 1956, and the Muslim Personal Law, a child has the right to claim maintenance from the parents. This includes financial support for the child's upbringing.
  3. Right to Inheritance: In India, children have the right to inherit property from their parents. The laws governing inheritance may vary based on the religion of the parents, but generally, a child born out of wedlock has rights to the property of the mother and, in some cases, the father.
  4. Right to Education: The Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009, ensures that every child has the right to education. This applies regardless of the circumstances of the child's birth.
  5. Right to Protection: The child is entitled to protection from abuse, neglect, and exploitation under various laws, including the Juvenile Justice (Care and Protection of Children) Act, 2015, and the Protection of Children from Sexual Offences (POCSO) Act, 2012.
  6. Right to Health: The child has the right to access healthcare services, including immunization and medical care, as per the provisions of the National Health Mission and other health policies.
  7. Social Stigma and Discrimination: While the law provides for the rights of children, societal attitudes may lead to discrimination against children born out of wedlock. Efforts are being made to address these issues through awareness and legal reforms.
  8. Legal Recognition: The legal status of a child born out of casual consensual sex is recognized, and such children are entitled to the same rights as those born within marriage, although there may be challenges in establishing paternity in some cases.
In summary, children born from casual consensual relationships in India have rights that are protected under various laws, ensuring their welfare, identity, and access to resources. However, the implementation of these rights can sometimes be influenced by societal attitudes and legal complexities.

That is tough and Indian males should be careful in what they do.
 
TomC said:
At this moment, my partner's newest grandson is in a mess. He was born somewhat premature, probably about 3-4 weeks. That was a month ago and he's still in the hospital ICU. He couldn't breathe on his own and still can't. He's in an oxygen tent being tube fed. He's never been held by his parents. Or fed. Every day we all wonder if he'll even leave the hospital alive. If he does survive I shudder to think about the psychological outcome of having that as your first experiences.
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One of my nieces is like that. Born premature, remained in ICU for a long time, and later developed hydrocephalus (water in brain) for which a tube was inserted in her brain to allow the water to trickle to safe parts of the body. It was thought that the tube will have to be changed at some point in her life, but that has not been necessary. She is healthy, studied in college and is now 25 years in age.
 
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!
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Jimmy Higgins said:
What does that have to do with pregnancy via consenual sex?
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Yes, sometimes, helpless males too need protection.
Jimmy Higgins said:
So the whole responsibility thing you referred to was bullshit.
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Responsibility come in when someone undertakes it.
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I wasn't aware there was so much rape committed by women in India.
 
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
The problem isn't whatever the law is, it is your inaccurate representation of it regarding the whole point being about responsibility of people having sex. It punishes women for having sex and getting pregnant, it appears to have little to no responsibility on men.
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Yes, no responsibility unless the person has agreed to it. I do not think I am representing it incorrectly.
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I get that you don't. That much is clear. The reality is, this isn't about responsibility, so as long as you don't make that claim, I'm good.
aupmanyav said:
If you loose a million dollars in stock trading, is the company responsible for it?
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If two people have consensual sex and the woman becomes pregnant, any laws that typically hold just one party responsible for the pregnancy is not requiring both parties to be responsible. It is actually giving one party a free pass.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
The helpless male! He needs protection of the law from women with immoral vaginas!
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Jimmy Higgins said:
What does that have to do with pregnancy via consenual sex?
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Yes, sometimes, helpless males too need protection.
Jimmy Higgins said:
So the whole responsibility thing you referred to was bullshit.
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Responsibility come in when someone undertakes it.
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I wasn't aware there was so much rape committed by women in India.
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It’s always the woman ( or girl or boy)’s fault.
 
aupmanyav said:
In summary, children born from casual consensual relationships in India have rights that are protected under various laws, ensuring their welfare, identity, and access to resources.
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You are just figuring out what these laws are... and using AI to do so?
aupmanyav said:
However, the implementation of these rights can sometimes be influenced by societal attitudes and legal complexities.
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Sometimes...
aupmanyav said:
That is tough and Indian males should be careful in what they do.
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How one can sound misogynistic, without intending to sound like a misogynist.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
I wasn't aware there was so much rape committed by women in India.
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False accusation of rape or indecent behavior is not rape (by women). It is quite common. Sometimes, the police people assist them. Of course, they are not likely to accuse foreigners, but one never knows. I think this happens in US too.
 
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Shadowy Man said:
sounds like the females need to be far more careful than the males.
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Every one should be careful even in adult consensual sex. A male, if paternity is proved, is liable to pay at least a part of the upkeep of the child for 18 years, the quantum will be decided by the court after considering the economic situation of both, the male and the female.
 
aupmanyav said:
Shadowy Man said:
sounds like the females need to be far more careful than the males.
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Every one should be careful even in adult consensual sex. A male, if paternity is proved, is liable to pay at least a part of the upkeep of the child for 18 years, the quantum will be decided by the court after considering the economic situation of both, the male and the female.
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Ok I guess I’m confused about what you’ve been telling us. So you are saying that if an unwed couple has sex that the father is legally obligated (if paternity is proved) to pay child support for 18 years even if the father had no intention or desire to have a child with the mother. Is that correct.

Because in an earlier post you had this exchange with Toni:

Toni said:
If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?
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You: “For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.”

So is the father equally responsible or not? Or is it a semantic issue with the word “equally”?
 
Shadowy Man said:
[Aupy}“For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.”
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@aupmanyav DID HE ASK FOR ASSURANCE?
If he doesn't ask if the woman might become pregnant with unprotected sex, why must she volunteer information?
Absent the inquiry, I'd say he has given tacit assent to having a child. To deny that is misogynistic.
 
unapologetic said:

If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?​

Why is this a question?
Isn't that the medical viewpoint.
I doubt you can find any doctor willing to preform an abortion that late.
It is only christian fear mongering that it ever happens.
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Note that "can survive outside the womb" is more than just time.

What about the cases where there's basically no brain? Doesn't matter how far along the pregnancy is, it's non-viable. And various other deformities that are incompatible with life.
 
Shadowy Man said:
Ok I guess I’m confused about what you’ve been telling us. So you are saying that if an unwed couple has sex that the father is legally obligated (if paternity is proved) to pay child support for 18 years even if the father had no intention or desire to have a child with the mother. Is that correct.
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All what I said earlier has turned out to be wrong. I have accepted my fault and have humbly sought excuse from members of the topic including yourself.
It comes about is that the law in India would not consider any difference between a legal or illegal birth. The child is not at fault, and both, the legal and the illegal child must be treated similarly and should be entitled to same rights.
 
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Loren Pechtel said:
Note that "can survive outside the womb" is more than just time.

What about the cases where there's basically no brain? Doesn't matter how far along the pregnancy is, it's non-viable. And various other deformities that are incompatible with life.
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In such cases the courts take medical opinion. Will the child be a big liability on the mother? Law allows abortion in case the woman wants it. As for time, again the court would consider the case and take medical opinion, but they have allowed abortion till very late into the pregnancy.
The courts are quite considerate of the women, but walking into a clinic and getting abortion at will is against law in India.
 
aupmanyav said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Note that "can survive outside the womb" is more than just time.

What about the cases where there's basically no brain? Doesn't matter how far along the pregnancy is, it's non-viable. And various other deformities that are incompatible with life.
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In such cases the courts take medical opinion. Will the child be a big liability on the mother?
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Other than the Willoughby's, I'm unaware of a parent of a newborn that the newborn wasn't a "big liability" to the parent(s).
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Other than the Willoughby's, I'm unaware of a parent of a newborn that the newborn wasn't a "big liability" to the parent(s).
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In such cases, the woman, the family, the doctors and the court decide what is to be done.
Indian courts are very sympathetic to the women or LGBTQ, strictly follow 'equal rights' except in case of LGBTQ marriage. Indian law does not permit it. It requires assent by both houses of parliament.
In our family, we decided that we would keep the girl whatever comes. But after the initial days, it was not so difficult. She had learning disability. Now she is OK.
Jimmy Higgins said:
How one can sound misogynistic, without intending to sound like a misogynist.
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Yes, my statement was misogynistic. A little fun. But then, I am a pre-1950 product and was raised in a different environment.
 
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