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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

 
 
 
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ZiprHead said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?
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Why do you think they didn't?
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Because South Africa (the ones that made the complaint) didn't have the evidence to bring a complaint.
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How do you know this?
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Revenge, fire and destruction: A year of Israeli soldiers’ videos from Gaza - WaPo link. Not shareable at this time

INTERNATIONAL LAW​

Some videos shot by IDF soldiers have already been used by South Africa in its genocide case against Israel at the ICJ. It could take years for a final ruling to come down.

“As far as we were concerned, everyone who was around there was an enemy. Whether he had a weapon on him or not, it doesn’t matter.”
— Lt. Col. Israel Ben Pazi

Experts say that videos that depict the mistreatment of detainees and corpses also raise concerns under international law.

In early December, large groups of Palestinian men were rounded up in a mass arrest in northern Gaza’s Beit Lahia. The detentions were documented in several videos.
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Well worth a read if you can get access.
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But they need to prove genocide. There's no way in hell Israel is going to get nailed for that.

The main problem with getting aid to the Gazans are (Palestinian) criminal gangs attacking the aid convoys in areas the IDF do not control. This area is nominally under the control of Hamas. So it's a bit of a stretch to assign guilt to the IDF for that. They've allowed the aid trucks to get through to Palestine. It's preposterous to hold IDF responsible for protecting aid trucks in an area under enemy control.

It's pretty clear that Hamas is using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a propaganda weapon against Israel. So they have no incentive to protect the trucks and aid workers. Which explains why they don't.

The guilt for Gazans starving is 100% Hamas.
 
DrZoidberg said:
ZiprHead said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?
Click to expand...
Why do you think they didn't?
Click to expand...
Because South Africa (the ones that made the complaint) didn't have the evidence to bring a complaint.
Click to expand...
How do you know this?
Click to expand...
Revenge, fire and destruction: A year of Israeli soldiers’ videos from Gaza - WaPo link. Not shareable at this time

INTERNATIONAL LAW​

Some videos shot by IDF soldiers have already been used by South Africa in its genocide case against Israel at the ICJ. It could take years for a final ruling to come down.

“As far as we were concerned, everyone who was around there was an enemy. Whether he had a weapon on him or not, it doesn’t matter.”
— Lt. Col. Israel Ben Pazi

Experts say that videos that depict the mistreatment of detainees and corpses also raise concerns under international law.

In early December, large groups of Palestinian men were rounded up in a mass arrest in northern Gaza’s Beit Lahia. The detentions were documented in several videos.
Click to expand...
Well worth a read if you can get access.
Click to expand...

But they need to prove genocide. There's no way in hell Israel is going to get nailed for that.
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Genocide no, ethnic cleansing, Netanyahu very much tried to get all the Palestinians into Egypt. Egypt didn't allow it.
DrZoidberg said:
The main problem with getting aid to the Gazans are (Palestinian) criminal gangs attacking the aid convoys in areas the IDF do not control.
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Nor does IDF want to risk life and limb to defend... but they could if they wanted. It'd be better if it was a foreign nation military to help with the inevitable civilian casualties. An Arab one would be even better. But no one actually cares about the Palestinians, the globe's orphans.
DrZoidberg said:
This area is nominally under the control of Hamas.
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Alright, at least you finally have admitted the rather limited role Hamas plays in governance in Gaza.
DrZoidberg said:
So it's a bit of a stretch to assign guilt to the IDF for that. They've allowed the aid trucks to get through to Palestine. It's preposterous to hold IDF responsible for protecting aid trucks in an area under enemy control.
Click to expand...
Humanitarian aid is have from being preposterous. There would be a great deal of risk however.
DrZoidberg said:
It's pretty clear that Hamas is using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a propaganda weapon against Israel.
Click to expand...
Hamas is like Fox News. They'll use anything to create propaganda.
DrZoidberg said:
So they have no incentive to protect the trucks and aid workers. Which explains why they don't.

The guilt for Gazans starving is 100% Hamas.
Click to expand...
What about the gangs you referred to earlier? The ones stealing the aid? 0% to them? This is the trouble with people such as yourself. Your agendas blind you so terribly. While the Gaza issue might very well be indeterminate solution wise, your eye isn't even on the ball.
 
There are two distinct problems of getting aid to Gazan civilians. One is the level of aid delivered to Gaza. The other is distributing the aid in Gaza. Yes, there is a real issue with the distribution of aid within Gaza and that is mostly due to Hamas and the criminal gangs.

There is sufficient evidence that the amount of aid delivered to Gaza has dramatically fallen. I have read reports in the Economist that the volume of aid has fallen from 500 trucks per day directly before the start of the war to under 200 per day. It is ludicrous to believe that the entire reduction of aid is due entirely to lack of effort on the part of donors especially since donors complain about the IDF hindering the flow of aid.
 
Gospel said:
This conflict is not "Islam versus the West"; as I've said, it is a war of ideology driven by specific actors exploiting political grievances and misusing religious narratives. Supporting the idea that "Islam" as a whole is reacting ideologically is falling into a simplistic and divisive framework created by extremists. The solution lies in dismantling propaganda, encouraging understanding, and addressing systemic inequalities that give rise to such movements.
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You are continuing to see it as Israel vs Gaza. No, this is Iran vs the world. Israel/Gaza is simply one front in a much wider battle. And it's not due to inequality or any of the justifications for terror. It's due to Iran wanting power.
 
laughing dog said:
Swammerdami said:
More sick anti-Semitism? Hatred of Israel is becoming rampant; here's a quote that showed up in my newsfeed. Apparently some pompous Jew-hating left-winger accused Israel's military of attempting ethnic cleansing in North Gaza; then went on to say:
I am compelled to warn about what is happening there and is being concealed from us. At the end of the day, war crimes are being committed. The road we are being led down is conquest, annexation and ethnic cleansing.
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I assume Loren and Zoidy will be eager to condemn this guy as a Jew-hater. What did he say next? "Go back to Auschwitz, you kikes!" ?

Oops, I forgot to mention exactly who is being quoted here. It is former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon (also a former Army Chief).
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If the hard right In Netanahyu’s coalition gets its way and Jewish settlements arise in the demolished areas in Gaza, it is ethnic cleansing.
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And I would object to this.
 
Swammerdami said:
It may be interesting or useful to review the legal basis for the Jewish State of Israel, which emerged in a territory where Muslims were the majority.

For three decades, the U.K. governed Palestine, first under a mandate from the League of Nations, then under a mandate from the United Nations. These mandates acknowledged a promise made by His Majesty's Government in 1917 to compensate Chaim Weizmann whose methods had supplied the U.K. military with the many thousands of tons of acetone it needed for munitions.

I have emphasized one clause in the commitment made by His Majesty's Government.

The Balfour Declaration said:
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
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The non-Jewish communities were harmed by the Arabs declaring war, not by the existence of Israel.
 
Gospel said:
DrZoidberg said:
Why isn't reality enough evidence?

The European left has come up with all manner of convuluted defences of Palestinian behaviour over the years. Just stop. How about, instead, look at what the Palestinians are actually doing.
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Two Questions

1: Please clarify which specific Palestinian actions you’re referring to and the defenses to them that you consider to be inherently convoluted?


2: Do you equate understanding the motivations and context behind a group’s actions with defending them?

A: Yes
B: No

If A, there’s no need to answer the first question, as your stance would already be quite clear.
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As for #2: The problem is that you are claiming motivations that do not correspond with reality. A hearts and minds campaign against Gaza would no more end the war than a hearts and minds campaign against the Egypt would have defeated Rommel. Gaza is a battleground in the Iran vs Israel war. You can't make peace with a battleground.
 
Gospel said:


Your argument that Hamas is prolonging the conflict for public relations overlooks the fact that hostages are typically used as leverage in negotiations. Extending the conflict endangers Hamas’s own survival. Didn’t you recently argue that a ceasefire would benefit Hamas? Now you’re suggesting they seek the opposite? :unsure:
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There is no meaningful bargaining because Hamas' paymasters do not want peace.

A ceasefire without hostage release is a major victory for Hamas, of course it would benefit them. Hostages for ceasefire is a major loss for Hamas, of course they don't want it. (And that's even assuming that they can offer such a deal. It's likely they don't have all the hostages in the first place.)
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
ZiprHead said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
And why is the ICC going for a war crimes prosecution without first considering whether there are war crimes?
Click to expand...
Why do you think they didn't?
Click to expand...
Because South Africa (the ones that made the complaint) didn't have the evidence to bring a complaint.
Click to expand...
How do you know this?
Click to expand...
Revenge, fire and destruction: A year of Israeli soldiers’ videos from Gaza - WaPo link. Not shareable at this time

INTERNATIONAL LAW​

Some videos shot by IDF soldiers have already been used by South Africa in its genocide case against Israel at the ICJ. It could take years for a final ruling to come down.

“As far as we were concerned, everyone who was around there was an enemy. Whether he had a weapon on him or not, it doesn’t matter.”
— Lt. Col. Israel Ben Pazi

Experts say that videos that depict the mistreatment of detainees and corpses also raise concerns under international law.

In early December, large groups of Palestinian men were rounded up in a mass arrest in northern Gaza’s Beit Lahia. The detentions were documented in several videos.
Click to expand...
Well worth a read if you can get access.
Click to expand...

But they need to prove genocide. There's no way in hell Israel is going to get nailed for that.
Click to expand...
Genocide no, ethnic cleansing, Netanyahu very much tried to get all the Palestinians into Egypt. Egypt didn't allow it.
DrZoidberg said:
The main problem with getting aid to the Gazans are (Palestinian) criminal gangs attacking the aid convoys in areas the IDF do not control.
Click to expand...
Nor does IDF want to risk life and limb to defend... but they could if they wanted. It'd be better if it was a foreign nation military to help with the inevitable civilian casualties. An Arab one would be even better. But no one actually cares about the Palestinians, the globe's orphans.
DrZoidberg said:
This area is nominally under the control of Hamas.
Click to expand...
Alright, at least you finally have admitted the rather limited role Hamas plays in governance in Gaza.
DrZoidberg said:
So it's a bit of a stretch to assign guilt to the IDF for that. They've allowed the aid trucks to get through to Palestine. It's preposterous to hold IDF responsible for protecting aid trucks in an area under enemy control.
Click to expand...
Humanitarian aid is have from being preposterous. There would be a great deal of risk however.
DrZoidberg said:
It's pretty clear that Hamas is using the suffering of the Palestinian people as a propaganda weapon against Israel.
Click to expand...
Hamas is like Fox News. They'll use anything to create propaganda.
DrZoidberg said:
So they have no incentive to protect the trucks and aid workers. Which explains why they don't.

The guilt for Gazans starving is 100% Hamas.
Click to expand...
What about the gangs you referred to earlier? The ones stealing the aid? 0% to them? This is the trouble with people such as yourself. Your agendas blind you so terribly. While the Gaza issue might very well be indeterminate solution wise, your eye isn't even on the ball.
Click to expand...

My money is on that the gangs is also Hamas. They have the power in Gaza. I find it unlikely that criminal gangs can operate in Gaza without permission from Hamas.

They're not a new splinter group. We haven't heard anything about Palestinian in-fighting.

The thing with Hamas fighters is that they're simultaneously Hamas fighters and civilian. And will slide between the two identities as they need. They're sometimes journalists. Or aid workers. Why couldn't they also be a criminal gang?

Hamas is an utterly corrupt organisation. They seem to have no moral standards.
 
DrZoidberg said:
My money is on that the gangs is also Hamas. They have the power in Gaza. I find it unlikely that criminal gangs can operate in Gaza without permission from Hamas.
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So we can toss pragmatism out the window then? You say something that is pragmatic and then walk it back when it doesn't cover your Hamas boogieman narrative.
DrZoidberg said:
They're not a new splinter group. We haven't heard anything about Palestinian in-fighting.
Click to expand...
Radically violent gangs and groups in the Arabian Peninsula are very much all splinter groups! We know there are terror groups about Israel that are more radical than Hamas. These people don't agree on much... which makes the whole Islamic Brotherhood thing more hilarious than a Zucker Brothers comedy.
 
Gospel said:
I have no idea why Loren keeps replying to my posts when almost everything Loren adds is something I’ve already said. Loren essentially restates my points in a different way and then claims I have expectations of Israel that I don’t apply to Gaza. I’ve literally mentioned the extremists in Gaza, stressing that Gazans (Palestinians) need to "do something" about that extremism. Loren seems oddly fixated on the phrase 'doing something,' I'm just suggesting that Gazans take action against the extremists and Israel leverage the opportunity Israel created when 'doing something' that just so happened to free Gazans from Hamas' oppression. Both with the goal of forcing Iran and other extremists to abandon using Gaza. I’ve already acknowledged that this may not be easy, nor have I suggested it’s a perfect solution.

I wonder what it is about me that leads Loren and Zoidberg to assume I’m ignorant or that I hold Israel to higher expectations than Gazans, along with the other accusations they’ve thrown my way. Neither seems particularly interested in answering the question of what else can be done. Instead, they keep repeating the point that 'they will never stop trying to destroy Israel'—an ideology I’ve already acknowledged and mentioned multiple times!
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Yeah, I feel like Loren likes to mansplain a lot, but maybe he just isn’t quite able to agree with anything if he doesn’t say it himself, in his own special way. Not sure what to call that…
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:


Your argument that Hamas is prolonging the conflict for public relations overlooks the fact that hostages are typically used as leverage in negotiations. Extending the conflict endangers Hamas’s own survival. Didn’t you recently argue that a ceasefire would benefit Hamas? Now you’re suggesting they seek the opposite? :unsure:
Click to expand...
There is no meaningful bargaining because Hamas' paymasters do not want peace.

A ceasefire without hostage release is a major victory for Hamas, of course it would benefit them. Hostages for ceasefire is a major loss for Hamas, of course they don't want it. (And that's even assuming that they can offer such a deal. It's likely they don't have all the hostages in the first place.)
Click to expand...

Ok, I think I understand what's being argued here. Are you suggesting that Hamas’ actions are entirely dictated by their paymasters and those paymasters categorically reject peace & hostage-taking is only used to negotiate hostage trades or anything else that Hamas sees as a benefit while peace is never on the table. If that's what's actually being argued, then that makes sense.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:
This conflict is not "Islam versus the West"; as I've said, it is a war of ideology driven by specific actors Supporting the idea that "Islam" as a whole is reacting ideologically is falling into a simplistic and divisive framework created by extremists. The solution lies in dismantling propaganda, encouraging understanding, and addressing systemic inequalities that give rise to such movements.
Click to expand...
You are continuing to see it as Israel vs Gaza. No, this is Iran vs the world. Israel/Gaza is simply one front in a much wider battle. And it's not due to inequality or any of the justifications for terror. It's due to Iran wanting power.
Click to expand...

How does that equate to viewing it as Israel versus Gaza? Are you suggesting that Iran isn’t exploiting political grievances or misusing religious narratives? Are you implying that the Iranian government isn’t driving the extremism?
 
Here's a fun one. A US soldier explaining what a war crime is. After looking at it it should be clear why Netanyahu and Israel is safe from any accusation of war crimes and genocide. Basically, if the enemy isn't clearly identifying themselves as an enemy combatant then they have no legal protection. It gets worse, Hamas' behaviour, in endagering civilians IS a war crime.

But pressing charges against Hamas in the Hague is a waste of time since Hamas is already on everyone's naughty list.

 
DrZoidberg said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
What about the gangs you referred to earlier? The ones stealing the aid? 0% to them? This is the trouble with people such as yourself. Your agendas blind you so terribly. While the Gaza issue might very well be indeterminate solution wise, your eye isn't even on the ball.
Click to expand...

My money is on that the gangs is also Hamas. They have the power in Gaza. I find it unlikely that criminal gangs can operate in Gaza without permission from Hamas.

They're not a new splinter group. We haven't heard anything about Palestinian in-fighting.

The thing with Hamas fighters is that they're simultaneously Hamas fighters and civilian. And will slide between the two identities as they need. They're sometimes journalists. Or aid workers. Why couldn't they also be a criminal gang?

Hamas is an utterly corrupt organisation. They seem to have no moral standards.
Click to expand...
There has been a long history of "other" organizations doing things that Hamas wants deniability about.
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:


Your argument that Hamas is prolonging the conflict for public relations overlooks the fact that hostages are typically used as leverage in negotiations. Extending the conflict endangers Hamas’s own survival. Didn’t you recently argue that a ceasefire would benefit Hamas? Now you’re suggesting they seek the opposite? :unsure:
Click to expand...
There is no meaningful bargaining because Hamas' paymasters do not want peace.

A ceasefire without hostage release is a major victory for Hamas, of course it would benefit them. Hostages for ceasefire is a major loss for Hamas, of course they don't want it. (And that's even assuming that they can offer such a deal. It's likely they don't have all the hostages in the first place.)
Click to expand...

Ok, I think I understand what's being argued here. Are you suggesting that Hamas’ actions are entirely dictated by their paymasters and those paymasters categorically reject peace & hostage-taking is only used to negotiate hostage trades or anything else that Hamas sees as a benefit while peace is never on the table. If that's what's actually being argued, then that makes sense.
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In detail, their actions are their own. In the big picture, their actions are almost completely dictated by their paymasters.
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:
This conflict is not "Islam versus the West"; as I've said, it is a war of ideology driven by specific actors Supporting the idea that "Islam" as a whole is reacting ideologically is falling into a simplistic and divisive framework created by extremists. The solution lies in dismantling propaganda, encouraging understanding, and addressing systemic inequalities that give rise to such movements.
Click to expand...
You are continuing to see it as Israel vs Gaza. No, this is Iran vs the world. Israel/Gaza is simply one front in a much wider battle. And it's not due to inequality or any of the justifications for terror. It's due to Iran wanting power.
Click to expand...

How does that equate to viewing it as Israel versus Gaza? Are you suggesting that Iran isn’t exploiting political grievances or misusing religious narratives? Are you implying that the Iranian government isn’t driving the extremism?
Click to expand...
They're using grievances as a tool. It's not really about grievances.

Look at the abortion issue. It's about the "life of the baby"--except at least in the past a very large majority (99%+) of supposedly "pro-life" people would accept abortion in case of rape or incest.

And note that the real grievance is that some of their victims escaped. Just because they are furious doesn't make it a proper action, any more than an abused woman who escapes should be sent back to her abuser, or killed if she won't bow down to him.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
My money is on that the gangs is also Hamas. They have the power in Gaza. I find it unlikely that criminal gangs can operate in Gaza without permission from Hamas.
Click to expand...
So we can toss pragmatism out the window then? You say something that is pragmatic and then walk it back when it doesn't cover your Hamas boogieman narrative.
Click to expand...

Hamas is more than a boogieman. They are well funded (by Iran). Its money that wins wars

but I'm just speculating on who controls the gangs

Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
They're not a new splinter group. We haven't heard anything about Palestinian in-fighting.
Click to expand...
Radically violent gangs and groups in the Arabian Peninsula are very much all splinter groups! We know there are terror groups about Israel that are more radical than Hamas. These people don't agree on much... which makes the whole Islamic Brotherhood thing more hilarious than a Zucker Brothers comedy.
Click to expand...

Sure. But you still need money to be an effective fighting unit. Who apart from Iran is supplying the Palestinians?
 
Loren Pechtel said:
DrZoidberg said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
What about the gangs you referred to earlier? The ones stealing the aid? 0% to them? This is the trouble with people such as yourself. Your agendas blind you so terribly. While the Gaza issue might very well be indeterminate solution wise, your eye isn't even on the ball.
Click to expand...

My money is on that the gangs is also Hamas. They have the power in Gaza. I find it unlikely that criminal gangs can operate in Gaza without permission from Hamas.

They're not a new splinter group. We haven't heard anything about Palestinian in-fighting.

The thing with Hamas fighters is that they're simultaneously Hamas fighters and civilian. And will slide between the two identities as they need. They're sometimes journalists. Or aid workers. Why couldn't they also be a criminal gang?

Hamas is an utterly corrupt organisation. They seem to have no moral standards.
Click to expand...
There has been a long history of "other" organizations doing things that Hamas wants deniability about.
Click to expand...

Like who? It's not like Hamas has historically had issues with committing extreme acts of terror? Why wouldn't they take full responsibility?
 
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