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If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

 
 
 
aupmanyav said:
Rhea said:
No one cares how much time you have left if you use it to harm others.
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I meant no harm. I too had/have grandmothers, mothers*, mothers-in-law, a wife of 57 years of marriage, sisters, daughters, nieces and grand daughters.
* In India, sisters of the mother are considered no less than the mother. Same for mother-in-law.
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Here’s the thing, aup.

When you do harm, and someone tells you that you’ve done harm, you have some choices on how to respond.

One is to say, “oh, crap, I did harm? Thanks for telling me, I’m so sorry. I can see what you mean, I will not do that any more. I’m so sorry.”

Another is, “Oh crap, I did harm? Thanks for telling me, I’m so sorry. I am not sure exactly what you mean, but I’d like to learn more so that I will not do that any more. I’m so sorry. Please tell me more so I can learn better and do better.”

Both of those acknowledge the person telling you that they were harmed. Both show that you care, even a smidgen, that they suffered some harm, and at your hands. Both show an intent to do whatever it takes to stop doing harm.

Another option is to say that you don’t know, you don’t care and you have no plans to change.


And that last option is the option of assholes and bullies who do not care about the suffering of others. Not gonna sugar coat that for you. You can live with it and interact with all the women around you who know this about you and you can learn and change, or you can choose to take what you think is a short remainder of your life to ensure that when you die, that’s how you’ll be remembered by all the women who know that you do not care about the things that make their lives hard.

Yah, not gonna sugar coat that for you. You were told you performed misogyny, and your reply was, “I think that’s fun, though, and I’m going to keep doing it until I die. I am amused when women are harmed.”

And you think anyone anywhere on this planet buys your “I meant no harm”? Yah, no. You said you meant harm you said that you thought misogyny was amusing to you.

Live with yourself, dude.
 
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What wrong did I write? Should not all males and females all over the world be careful about what they do? STD, herpes, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, responsibilities of the child. I have a 22 year old grandson studying in a college far from Delhi, in a class which has more girls than boys.
You people are berating me for no reason.
 
aupmanyav said:
What wrong did I write?
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You could go back and read it. It’s all there. But assuming you’re asking for an intepretation so that you can cease to consider something misogynistic to be fun (your words):
aupmanyav said:
Should not all males and females all over the world be careful about what they do?
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That is not what you said. You said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
aupmanyav said:
Toni said:
If she was responsible for any resulting pregnancy, why is he not equally responsible?
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For the simple reason that he had not given any such assurance when they had sex.
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So the whole responsibility thing you referred to was bullshit.
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You said that the woman had a responsibility for what happened during sex, but the man did not, unless someone (the woman) spelled it out for him

And then you said
aupmanyav said:
In summary, children born from casual consensual relationships in India have rights that are protected under various laws, ensuring their welfare, identity, and access to resources. However, the implementation of these rights can sometimes be influenced by societal attitudes and legal complexities.

That is tough and Indian males should be careful in what they do.
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That MALES should be careful what they do. After saying that the woman bore the responsibility unless she explained reproduction to the man before sex. Or something.

To which Jimmy pointed out how misogynistic it was to say that men are not repsonsible for the products of their intercourse but women are and the lesson is that men should be careful what they do. Not responsible, just cafeful.
Jimmy Higgins said:
aupmanyav said:
In summary, children born from casual consensual relationships in India have rights that are protected under various laws, ensuring their welfare, identity, and access to resources.
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You are just figuring out what these laws are... and using AI to do so?
aupmanyav said:
However, the implementation of these rights can sometimes be influenced by societal attitudes and legal complexities.
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Sometimes...
aupmanyav said:
That is tough and Indian males should be careful in what they do.
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How one can sound misogynistic, without intending to sound like a misogynist.
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The non misogynistic thing here would be (could have been) that men should be responsible for their actions, just as women are made to be. You had previously been giving a pass to the men completely. That was misogynistic the whole way through, having different stands for men and women. And when you finally even got close, it was women are responsible, men should be careful. Notice the different standard you continue to maintain for men and women.

And this here was the cap on the problem. That when you recognized it was misogynistic, you said that misogyny was fun. That’s what caused me to move you from the “ill-informed mysogynist” column to the “person who thinks misogyny is funny and is therefore behaving as an asshole would” column.
aupmanyav said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
How one can sound misogynistic, without intending to sound like a misogynist.
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Yes, my statement was misogynistic. A little fun. But then, I am a pre-1950 product and was raised in a different environment.
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That’s what you wrote. But misogyny is never fun. That’s the main message that you are missing.

aupmanyav said:
You people are berating me for no reason.
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You are in a discussion where people are disagreeing with your statements that
  1. men should have one standard and women a different, more penalizing one, and
  2. That misogyny is ever funny
So it’s not “berating,” it’s a discussion, and it’s not without valid reasons.
 
Rhea said:
So it’s not “berating” and it’s not without valid reasons.
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To be fair, its validity is culturally derived.
It would be wrong to assume that Aupy’s fluency in English automatically means he gets Western culture. He could be totally immersed in a culture featuring local practices that are quite foreign to most denizens of IIDB, and is surprised by people who are appalled. It’s not berating though. None of us escapes our early conditioning, and that varies immensely.
 
Rhea said:
You said that the woman had a responsibility for what happened during sex, but the man did not, unless someone (the woman) spelled it out for him
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That was long back, I had a misconception about the rules in India. I had retracted from that position, and asked for excuse from topic members.
Rhea said:
you said that misogyny was fun
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Yes, we can make fun/joke about something, even about misogyny. Sue me if you differ.

Yeah, English language teaching started late in my time, in 6th standard. I did not study in any elite school. I frequently use dictionary to get the right word. I do not understand your jokes and many a times miss the pleasure of enjoying them.
 
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Elixir said:
Rhea said:
So it’s not “berating” and it’s not without valid reasons.
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To be fair, its validity is culturally derived.
It would be wrong to assume that Aupy’s fluency in English automatically means he gets Western culture. He could be totally immersed in a culture featuring local practices that are quite foreign to most denizens of IIDB, and is surprised by people who are appalled. It’s not berating though. None of us escapes our early conditioning, and that varies immensely.
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This is true but does NOT make his views any less misogynistic. In some countries, women frequently die in kitchen fires if their dowry proves disappointing and in some cultures, female fetuses are selectively aborted and baby girls frequently abandoned. In some countries, in some cultures, prepubescent or barely pubescent girls are ‘given’ in marriage to adult men, sometimes old enough to be their grandfathers. Girls may be denied education, limited to what careers they may pursue, or even be forbidden from driving or appearing in public with their face and hair uncovered, or unaccompanied by a male family member.

Those are just some of the culturally accepted attitudes and customs that are extremely misogynistic.
 
Elixir said:
Rhea said:
So it’s not “berating” and it’s not without valid reasons.
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To be fair, its validity is culturally derived.
It would be wrong to assume that Aupy’s fluency in English automatically means he gets Western culture. He could be totally immersed in a culture featuring local practices that are quite foreign to most denizens of IIDB, and is surprised by people who are appalled. It’s not berating though. None of us escapes our early conditioning, and that varies immensely.
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And yet, misogyny is NEVER “a bit of fun” in any culture, for the women.
So there’s that in listening to the person telling you that you’re creating harm. Yes some cultures think harming women is righteous, but there aren’t any where it’s ok to think of it as “a bit of fun” to the extent that you are protected from being excoriated for saying so.
 
aupmanyav said:
Rhea said:
You said that the woman had a responsibility for what happened during sex, but the man did not, unless someone (the woman) spelled it out for him
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That was long back, I had a misconception about the rules in India. I had retracted from that position, and asked for excuse from topic members.
Rhea said:
you said that misogyny was fun
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Yes, we can make fun/joke about something, even about misogyny. Sue me if you differ.

Yeah, English language teaching started late in my time, in 6th standard. I did not study in any elite school. I frequently use dictionary to get the right word. I do not understand your jokes and many a times miss the pleasure of enjoying them.
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And here’s where one has the opportunity to say, “oh wow, my english made me unaware of how hurtful it is to say misogyny is fun. But *I HEAR YOU* now, and I realize what you’re saying. A good learning for me, and I’m sorry.”


Or one can keep on saying, “I have a right to not be corrected when I do something shitty. My feelings can’t take it, so you should prepare for me to keep hurting you as I avoid discomfort for myself.”


Jfc, just admit that you just learned that was hurtful - and plan to stop. Why is this so hard for you? Why the excuses and the defensiveness and the promise to continue a bad behavior? Why the refusal to grow and learn? Why the shocked offense that someone is calling you to task? Why the refusal to admit that maybe, just maybe, you did something wrong enough to warrant change?

Do you care more about your own discomfort at being wrong about something than the harm your behavior caused?

My friend has a dog that likes sticks. Loves sticks. Big sticks, like 4-6 feet long, and he likes to run around with them in his mouth. But she has trained him to know that if he hits anyone with the stick, he will not be allowed to keep it. He knows that if he runs past me with a big stick and whacks me in the leg, even though he doesn’t mean to! that he will have the stick taken away. He’s well enough trained that he will drop the stick himself, and come look cute for forgiveness. Even if he doesn’t intend to whack my knee, he knows that my knee getting whacked by his stick is his fault.

Is that dog smarter and more empathetic than you?

Misogyny is not a bit of fun. Ever. Nor is racism, or religious hatred, or xenophobia, or bullying.
 
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aupmanyav said:
You people are berating me for no reason.
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And just to be clear - you being “berated” on the internet once…. Compared to the suffering of billions of women from misogyny…. reeks of privilege. To which I can only reply, “Wanh. Fucking wanh.”

You had to read a conflicting view on the internet over it. I lost jobs over it. Get over yourself.
 
Rhea said:
You had to read a conflicting view on the internet over it. I lost jobs over it. Get over yourself.
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Sympathize with you, Indian courts too are very strict on gender discrimination (also in case of LGBTQ). But don't take it to this length in an internet forum discussion.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Rhea said:
TomC said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
View attachment 48827
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That's not how I picture Rhea.
Oh well.
Tom
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View attachment 48839
Except I wouldn’t have my finger over the arrow.
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It's been a long, long time since I've used a bow. My memory is that her behavior is reasonable while drawing the arrow to keep it in place. You remove the finger before releasing it.
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Thanks for the lesson, sir.

I know how to draw a bow and shoot an arrow. Have a little range in my back yard.
When one nocks the arrow on the side opposite from one’s pull fingers, and then draws the string back (with one’s elbow lower than hers), the twist of the string by one’s fingers will twist the arrow against the bow holding it in place. The only time I’d have my finger over the arrow is prior to pulling back the string (which is not the condition of this image).

But I so appreciate a man charging in on his steed to tell me how to understand the picture I chose to represent myself, in case I didn’t know about the image I had chosen.

And in a thread about misogyny, no less!
~chef’s kiss~
 
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unapologetic said:
Rhea said:
If serious, in what way is anyone berating you?
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Your debate with Natzihead is going on and on, not about abortion, and not of interest to anybody else.
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Duly noted.

So to consider fully refuted the comments of aup that men are under no obligation regarding pregnancy unless they are married:

aupmanyav said:
The woman has no right to burden the man post-act with a responsibility that he never took up.
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And to return to the topic of whether abortion is murder…

No. It is self defense. No human under any circumstances should be required to donate against their will tissue, blood or organs to another human. Refusal to do so, even if the process started and the donor changes their mind, is not ever murder.

Otherwise we would be demanding that drunk drivers or Pharma executives donate eyes or livers or kidneys (or whatever part is needed) to people they maim, that Tobacco or coal executives would be required to donate lungs to the customers or workers they are killing, that dog owners must donate skin to those harmed by their dogs, that chemical executives are required to donate bone marrow to those whose cancer is a result of polluition, etc. That any person who dies must be harvested for all available organs regardless of their or their family’s wishes.

Nope. Refusing to donate tissue blood and organs is a fundamental right that must be protected. Therefore it is never murder to refuse to donate.
 
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