Your side keeps arguing emotions, you are generally unwilling to face the unpleasant facts. Like the 90% diversion rate: https://app.un2720.org/tracking/ Like the fact that all the starvation photos are medical: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skvxuqxdxl Like that study that shows that aid always goes to the oppressors, never the victims: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5380004
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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel
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Nobody has yet addressed the inconvenient reality that Iran is backing horrors all over the region. The Jews certainly didn't cause the Sudan genocides. Nor that country next to Somalia that I keep forgetting the name of. And Yemen--they've basically taken over Yemen by now.
Politesse
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So are we. So is every "great power". We are all fighting vicious wars in other people's backyards, wars that mostly take innocents and cannot be won or even ended. But you've just to wave your stupid flag over the next field of corpses, eh? You're feigning outrage about countries you can't even remember the name of, for fuck's sake, while plotting the deaths of thousands more in countries the media hasn't even taught you specifically to hate yet.
So much human potential wasted.
Somalia's neighbors are Kenya, Ethiopia, and Djbouti. They have a disputed border with Ethiopea, and are fighting a civil war against a religious extremist organization called Al-Shabab.
And just sort of shouting your opinion again is not "evidence" by any reasonable definition of that word.
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bilby
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Literally adjacent posts:
Eleven minutes later:
FFS.
Eleven minutes later:
(my bold)
FFS.
DrZoidberg
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I think the reason is that I am perhaps aware of nuances that you aren't?
Palestinians do support Hamas. Because Palestinians are tribal. They will support any group in conflict with Israel. Even when that is a monstrous regime guilty of the deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians. That's just a sad fact about how Arabs think. If Israel would be removed from the equation, then the Gazans would turn on Hamas in a second. Because Hamas is Sunni. And Palestinian Gazans are Shia. That's how tribalism works. What policies or ideology the govornment of Gaza has will not enter into the equation of what Arabs support. It's all sectarianism, nepotism and tribalism.
Gaza has a problem with inbreeding. Families are jealously guarding the power of that family. So control who their daughters and son marry, in order to keep power within the family. It's a result of their values.
They do not have western values. Or rather, they do, when around westerners. But as soon as they find themselves among their own, they switch back in an instant.
And they are aware of this. Educated Arabs are very aware that Arab culture is dysfunctional and that western values are, in general, better. They understand that the reason the Middle-East is a mess, is Arab culture. But it is culture. It's in our bones. It's hard to change. But I have hope. I'm convinced Arabs can change, and will change. It just takes time. It's also not just religion. All the various religions in the area, have roughly, the same culture. So I'm not going to just blame it on Islam. Right now Gazans are of course extremely aware of how awful Hamas is. I'm hoping enough Gazans get over their fear of being religious traitors, and turn on Hamas. It is happening. To an extent.
If we project western values onto Arabs, we are going to misunderstand why they do the things they do.
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bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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I think the only reason you would, or could, think that would be because you are an arrogant tit.
Though of course, I could be mistaken, and you might be a very close friend and confidant of @Gospel, and have a thorough grasp of exactly what he knows. Perhaps you were his professor in a world history class recently?
But my money is on arrogant tit.
DrZoidberg
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Let me guess, you think everyone who doesn't agree with you and doesn't immediately roll over to your clueless ramblings is ignorant and arrogant?
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
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One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
www.jpost.com
DrZoidberg
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One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
That's a matter of definition. Israel most certainly has western values. All power is in the hands of Azkenhazi Jews, and they are completely western. Not to belabor the point but Maimonedes, Spinoza, Freud and Arendt are all extremely important philosophers of western thought. Helped shaped our modern western world. Very much Jewish. Not to mention the European Jewish scientists who have shaped western culture and thought. European culture and values is as much a product of Jewish thought as of Christian thought. And their descendents are firmly in control in Israel. The ruling elite has since Israel was founded been 100% Ashkenhazi.
Mizrahi Jews, on the other hand, are culturally Arab. Just like that article points out, (that bit about Maroccan Jews). Sure, they're Jews. But apart from that... Arab. In every other way. They are the majority of Jews in Israel. But don't have that much power. Why? Because they're actively kept out of power by the Ashkenhazi Jews. Why? Because they're culturally Arab. They're not hiding their tendency's toward corruption and nepotism, making it a hard sell politically in a country with a western style democracy.
The plethora of Mizrahi extreme religious sects is a running joke in Israel. They're absolutely bizarre. They're about as extreme and demanding as Hamas in Gaza. Luckly, it's tonnes of them, they don't coordinate. They're all tiny. And they all make absurd demands that are so nuts, that the rest of Israel can ignore them without too much effort. Also, they're rarely dangerous. Jewish extremism tends to be about extreme separation and seclusion from the rest of society. Not violent attacks. Though it does happen.
So the article is not wrong. But, I think the article, assumes you are aware of the context I wrote above. It's clearly intended for an Israeli audience.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
That's a matter of definition.
All words and all posts are a matter of definition.
Israel is not a monolith as it is made of diverse people with diverse opinions. The article linked expresses an opinion that Israel is more of a hybrid as it has Western influence. This at least recognizes a spectrum which is often reality, unlike your over-generalizations.
All power is not in the hands of "Azkenhazi [sic] Jews" nor are they completely Western as a monolithic characteristic or feature. To review--the political parties are a coalition including very far right extremists, like for example Religious Zionist party--which is not by-and-large upholding so-called Western values.
These demographic statistics are from 2022:
The Demographic Characteristics of Voters
The data reveals that Israel’s political system is split by many overlapping divisions - along identity and status lines – making it is far more difficult to change voters’ positions and further contributing to the current political stalemate.
en.idi.org.il
laughing dog
Contributor
Your obsession over starvation photos is bizarre. First, malnutrition exacerbates existing medical conditions. Second, both the UN and MSF report a significant increase in observed malnutrition rates among children based on 1000s of treated children. For some reason, you think blockading food entry for a couple of months and then keeping food aid to less than half the pre war deliveries through delaying delivery via inspections has mo effect on human health.
If you read that unrefereed study, you’d know it says nothing of the sort. It is a case study of selected aid programs. In some examples, it gives estimates of diversion rates (always less than 100%). In others, it hives examples of conditions placed on aid distribution.Loren Pechtel said:
Your response is not based on facts but bias. Which makes it epically ironic.
Gospel
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That’s your specialty, not engaging with arguments directly, but swapping in accusations of antisemitism where you’d normally say ‘arrogant,’ or Hamas sympathy where you’d say ‘ignorant.’ Then you pull the surprise-Pikachu face when the same tactic gets turned back on you. Instead of defending your views on their own merits, you hide them behind the people of Israel as if you’re their hero. They don’t need you white-knighting for them, in fact, they’d do better without people like you shutting down opportunities for honest discussion.
Nobody here is a Hamas member that needs vanquishing. What does exist here is the chance to change minds through discourse. I’ll be the first to admit I’m ignorant of plenty when it comes to the Middle East, that’s why I’m here, sharing opinions and reading sources others post. You don’t agree with me? Fine. Explain why. But if your move is to smear me as a Hamas supporter or accuse me of backing genocide, then you can fuck right off with that.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
That's a matter of definition.
All words and all posts are a matter of definition.
Israel is not a monolith as it is made of diverse people with diverse opinions. The article linked expresses an opinion that Israel is more of a hybrid as it has Western influence. This at least recognizes a spectrum which is often reality, unlike your over-generalizations.
All power is not in the hands of "Azkenhazi [sic] Jews" nor are they completely Western as a monolithic characteristic or feature. To review--the political parties are a coalition including very far right extremists, like for example Religious Zionist party--which is not by-and-large upholding so-called Western values.
These demographic statistics are from 2022:
The Demographic Characteristics of Voters
The data reveals that Israel’s political system is split by many overlapping divisions - along identity and status lines – making it is far more difficult to change voters’ positions and further contributing to the current political stalemate.en.idi.org.il
First you say I'm wrong then back up what I said. Thank you, I guess
Far right extremism are also western values. Nazism and fascism was invented over here.
Almost every modern political ideology we find in liberal democracys are ideas spawned in the west. Communism, conservatism, socialism, liberalism
I simplified the story by leaving out the sephardim. Yes. I counted them in with the Ashkenazi. I left out a lot of information in order to make it easier to understand. I think its necessary in this conversation. The Middle-East is extremely complicated.
Politesse
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We like to think so, anyway.
Gospel
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Setting aside the sweeping generalizations and ethnocentric assumptions, I do agree with this point: projecting Western values onto Arab or Palestinian societies often leads to misunderstandings.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
That's a matter of definition.
All words and all posts are a matter of definition.
Israel is not a monolith as it is made of diverse people with diverse opinions. The article linked expresses an opinion that Israel is more of a hybrid as it has Western influence. This at least recognizes a spectrum which is often reality, unlike your over-generalizations.
All power is not in the hands of "Azkenhazi [sic] Jews" nor are they completely Western as a monolithic characteristic or feature. To review--the political parties are a coalition including very far right extremists, like for example Religious Zionist party--which is not by-and-large upholding so-called Western values.
These demographic statistics are from 2022:
The Demographic Characteristics of Voters
The data reveals that Israel’s political system is split by many overlapping divisions - along identity and status lines – making it is far more difficult to change voters’ positions and further contributing to the current political stalemate.en.idi.org.il
First you say I'm wrong then back up what I said. Thank you, I guess
Far right extremism are also western values. Nazism and fascism was invented over here.
Almost every modern political ideology we find in liberal democracys are ideas spawned in the west. Communism, conservatism, socialism, liberalism
I simplified the story by leaving out the sephardim. Yes. I counted them in with the Ashkenazi. I left out a lot of information in order to make it easier to understand. I think its necessary in this conversation. The Middle-East is extremely complicated.
Well, in my defense, when you post contradictory things like the above, you can of course make it look like something agrees with some part of what you wrote. However, in this case, Sephardim are not a subset of Ashkenazim.
Not only that, but you missed critical nuance in your quick skimming of social constructs like ethnic/cultural divisions. While the article discusses Moroccan music and a journalist criticizing it by labeling it as "Mizrahi," ethnically-speaking many Moroccan Jews have origins in Spain/Portugal...and so are Sephardic, even if culturally they may be Mizrahi or the words have a bit of a conflation. During the Inquisition, most Jews who were expelled or left Spain/Portugal, ended up in the Ottoman Empire (North Africa and Turkey being two major destinations) and this was as far back as 1492, really well before modern political ideologies...and most of these Jews assimilated some cultural values from the destination cultures over generations or at least never possessed values about liberal democracies to begin with.
And you missed another nuance here:
Many Ashkenazi ended up in Eastern European states and Russia. The authoritarianism of Russia isn't exactly what is meant by Western values.
So when you tried to break down politics by an Ashkenazi vs Mizrahi dichotomy it was wrong on about 4 accounts.
bilby
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No, I think that everyone who thinks that everyone who doesn't agree with them must be doing so because they are unaware of nuances to which they themselves are somehow uniquely privy, is an arrogant tit.
You don't have special inside knowledge that nobody else has until you deign to dispense it to the rabble; But you act as tnough you do. That's a perfect image of an arrogant tit, right there.
Check it out. He's hiding in your posting history, and in your mirror.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
One could argue that if we project western values onto Israel's government, we are going to also misunderstand why they do the things they do.
Terra Incognita: Israel is not a Western country, and never has been | The Jerusalem Post
The majority of Israelis today don’t care about being welcomed in Europe and don’t seek European approval.
That's a matter of definition.
All words and all posts are a matter of definition.
Israel is not a monolith as it is made of diverse people with diverse opinions. The article linked expresses an opinion that Israel is more of a hybrid as it has Western influence. This at least recognizes a spectrum which is often reality, unlike your over-generalizations.
All power is not in the hands of "Azkenhazi [sic] Jews" nor are they completely Western as a monolithic characteristic or feature. To review--the political parties are a coalition including very far right extremists, like for example Religious Zionist party--which is not by-and-large upholding so-called Western values.
These demographic statistics are from 2022:
The Demographic Characteristics of Voters
The data reveals that Israel’s political system is split by many overlapping divisions - along identity and status lines – making it is far more difficult to change voters’ positions and further contributing to the current political stalemate.en.idi.org.il
First you say I'm wrong then back up what I said. Thank you, I guess
Far right extremism are also western values. Nazism and fascism was invented over here.
Almost every modern political ideology we find in liberal democracys are ideas spawned in the west. Communism, conservatism, socialism, liberalism
I simplified the story by leaving out the sephardim. Yes. I counted them in with the Ashkenazi. I left out a lot of information in order to make it easier to understand. I think its necessary in this conversation. The Middle-East is extremely complicated.
Well, in my defense, when you post contradictory things like the above, you can of course make it look like something agrees with some part of what you wrote. However, in this case, Sephardim are not a subset of Ashkenazim.
Not only that, but you missed critical nuance in your quick skimming of social constructs like ethnic/cultural divisions. While the article discusses Moroccan music and a journalist criticizing it by labeling it as "Mizrahi," ethnically-speaking many Moroccan Jews have origins in Spain/Portugal...and so are Sephardic, even if culturally they may be Mizrahi or the words have a bit of a conflation. During the Inquisition, most Jews who were expelled or left Spain/Portugal, ended up in the Ottoman Empire (North Africa and Turkey being two major destinations) and this was as far back as 1492, really well before modern political ideologies...and most of these Jews assimilated some cultural values from the destination cultures over generations or at least never possessed values about liberal democracies to begin with.
And you missed another nuance here:
Many Ashkenazi ended up in Eastern European states and Russia. The authoritarianism of Russia isn't exactly what is meant by Western values.
So when you tried to break down politics by an Ashkenazi vs Mizrahi dichotomy it was wrong on about 4 accounts.
Just stop displaying your seeming bottomless ignorance. You chose really dumb things to nit pick about.
I recommend that you stop trying to sound clever. Its not working out for you.
Eastern European Jews are a lot more culturally close to the occident than the orient. The enlightenment started in the 18'th century. A movement Russia, very much, was a part of. Which explains why they became communist. An ideology, very much, the result of the enlightenment.
You seem confused about what western culture and western values are. Its not the same thing as liberal values. There's nothing about western values that is in conflict with authoritarianism. Quite the contrary, unfortunately. The Americans love of Trump is a good example.
Turks are a lot more westernised than Arabs. It matters where the Sephardim ended up following the expulsion of Isabella.
Its also important to understand that in the middle ages western Europe was the retarded part of Europe. The Muslim part was the educated and progressive part. The Mongols fucked that up.
Your narrative is hopelessly simplistic. Jews have a more interesting history than you give them credit for
Jimmy Higgins
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FIFY
I saw a piece on CBC, there was a starving teenager because of celiac. Siblings certainly didn't look chunky. But not starving.
It doesn't appear that Gaza is starving to death, though a few are... and as a result of the siege. In the US, we feel a bit bad that people are going hungry.... not reaching the point of starvation. Are these the bars you think are humane?
Are we going to be at this point in another 22 months, where you are saying this is the only way it can work? Does this never end and this is the new normal?
bilby
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That's good advice. Someone should give it to you.