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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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The latest victim of the onslaught was this guy, Omar Hayek, killed on his way out of the city to a satellite clinic. He was waiting at a bus stop. I sure it was a fucking terrorist bus stop. Murderers! This is the fourteenth killing of an MSF staff member since they began operations in Gaza. You'd be safer as a soldier than you are as a doctor when Israel is on the march, at least soldiers get body armor and are allowed to shoot back.
We have one MSF member documented as Hamas.

And note that Israel has called for the evacuation of Gaza City. Everyone there is either Hamas or a human shield.
You are writing heinous lies about a good man who was just brutally killed while risking his life to help others. It's not an "evacuation" when Israel is gunning people down as they try to flee. You should be ashamed to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, typing filth like that. Or don't you?
And once again you blame Israel for what Hamas did. It's Hamas that keeps shooting people trying to get off the X.
There is no reasonable doubt whatsoever that Omar Hayek was murdered by Israeli forces. I cited my source. If you aren't a liar, and a supporter of the murder of physicians, show me any evidence whatsoever that what you are saying is true.
1) "Murder" implies unlawful. Killing in war generally isn't unlawful.

2) I do not recall names but one of the MSF people was photographed in Hamas uniform. That makes the status of the rest of them unknown rather than automatically civilian. I do not support the killing of non-combatants, but "physician" and "combatant" aren't mutually exclusive categories.
 
But what he was referring to is how much the left supports one of the viler organization on Earth. Why do you bend over backwards to avoid blaming them for what they have done??
You mean the part where he told a bold-faced lie about my position and refuses to recant it? I am not "the Left", my name is Politesse and I have a clearly stated position on Gaza, which is not that.
 
The latest victim of the onslaught was this guy, Omar Hayek, killed on his way out of the city to a satellite clinic. He was waiting at a bus stop. I sure it was a fucking terrorist bus stop. Murderers! This is the fourteenth killing of an MSF staff member since they began operations in Gaza. You'd be safer as a soldier than you are as a doctor when Israel is on the march, at least soldiers get body armor and are allowed to shoot back.
We have one MSF member documented as Hamas.

And note that Israel has called for the evacuation of Gaza City. Everyone there is either Hamas or a human shield.
You are writing heinous lies about a good man who was just brutally killed while risking his life to help others. It's not an "evacuation" when Israel is gunning people down as they try to flee. You should be ashamed to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning, typing filth like that. Or don't you?
And once again you blame Israel for what Hamas did. It's Hamas that keeps shooting people trying to get off the X.
There is no reasonable doubt whatsoever that Omar Hayek was murdered by Israeli forces. I cited my source. If you aren't a liar, and a supporter of the murder of physicians, show me any evidence whatsoever that what you are saying is true.
1) "Murder" implies unlawful. Killing in war generally isn't unlawful.
It is if you're murdering doctors.

 
And you're lucky I am a pacifist, frankly. I never have supported any terrorist organization and never will, and I don't respect liars and slanderers much either.

You've been criticising Israel repeatedly in this thread. That is to support Hamas, a terrorist organisation. So much for your pacifism.
You can criticize Israel without supporting Hamas.

But when you keep criticizing them for sins when the evidence says otherwise, then you certainly look like an indirect supporter of Hamas. A lot like much of the MAGA crowd--don't exactly like The Felon but stand behind him anyway.
 
I wonder what will save the next batch of Israeli civilians kidnapped by Gazan militants.
The clear lesson is that violent Muslim supremacists can kidnap civilians and their supporters, like you, will rally to their cause!
Tom
More than 10,800 posts into this thread, not one of them in support of Muslim supremacists, and you can say ^this^ with a straight face?
When you make excuses for it you are supporting it.

When you lie about people making excuses for it, you are lying.
 
Morals Dr Z?

What about the long running Israeli seizure of Palestinian land for Israeli settlers?

What about the founding of Israel itself by force taking land? That is where the conflict today began.

The brutality of Hams is an issue, in the news they are executing Palestinians. But it all began with Jews taking land owned by others.

West Bank Jewish settlers have forced Palestinians off their land at gunpoint.

All predicated by a 2000 year old claim to the land given by a god.
The conflict began long before that.

And note that most of that "taking" was buying. The creation of Israel took no land from any person. It changed the ownership of public land and it changed the government in charge.

Many, many people lost land later after the war when they wouldn't swear to be peaceful if allowed to return.

And beware of the reporting of what's happening in the settlements. Amazing how the dead Palestinians were generally shot in the front, not the rear. While it's possible to have a legitimate defensive shot into somebody's back it's not typical. (The reality is that the time it takes to turn to flee is less than the time it takes to make the shoot/don't-shoot decision. When someone sees the gun coming out and tries to run away the shooter is unlikely to evaluate this change in time.) Thus the settlers are generally defenders, not attackers.
 
I'm sorry. You're not getting a free pass on this. Especially not at a time when the world suddenly turned antisemitic on a dime. That was not the time and place to try to wiggle out of moral responsibility.
A genocide apologist is lecturing me on morality? There's a joke in there, but i doubt anyone would care to laugh.
He is not a genocide apologist, you are skipping over the step of establishing that it's genocide in the first place. A lot of people dead in war does not equal genocide.
If there ever was a time to take a stand and support the victims... this was it. And you failed in that. You supported the perpetrators.
I will always support the victims, not the perpetrators, of unjust wars. Often in very direct and material ways. I don't suppose you actually do anything for the refugees of the wars you support so casually? I do, and I assure you, human suffering does not occur only on one "side" of any war. Most people don't have a "side" when war begins, but it erases their life just the same. Most victims of war are children, who will never be given a chance to live a normal life at all as a result.
Who started 10/7? Hamas.

There was no side you could have picked in this conflict that wouldn't have led to suffering. Pretending their was is moral cowardice IMHO.
Which is why, unlike you, I didn't pick a side. Genocide is not a sport, Israel and Palestine aren't teams, and if war is a game, the only way to win it is not to play. This war could have been stopped in its tracks a half dozen times over the last several decades, and it should have been. Would have been, if outside powers weren't leaning on the buttons, including my own nation.
Continuing to insist this doesn't make it so. There have been repeated attempts to make peace with those that do not have the power to make peace. The actual warmongers have never been at the talks in the first place.
I'm very disapointed over the weak morals of many on this forum displayed when it came to this conflict. I thought better of this place.

It's a free country. You're free to abandon morality. But when you do, you will be judged for it.
My moral position is not absent, ambiguous or in dispute. I oppose any intentional warmongering or ethnoreligious violence in the strongest terms, and I am happy to be judged by that metric.
But you keep blaming Israel for Hamas actions, sure looks like support for Hamas.
 
Excuse me,it all began with Jews BUYING land about 75 years before Israel was founded. Yes, the horror that Jews might buy land, and actually gain some sort of political control over land containing mosques built on old Jewish holy sites precipitated a moral panic that is still going on, and was the principle objection to Jewish immigration to pre-mandatory Palestine.

It didn’t start in 48 thats for sure, and no bull about everyone living in wonderful harmony until the bad Zionists came. Nope nope nope
It began long before that even. Fundamentally, this is the Jews throwing off the cloak of oppression that has persisted for so long.

It wasn't about land that might be a mosque, it was about Jews not being properly subservient.
 

The latest victim of the onslaught was this guy, Omar Hayek, killed on his way out of the city to a satellite clinic. He was waiting at a bus stop. I sure it was a fucking terrorist bus stop. Murderers! This is the fourteenth killing of an MSF staff member since they began operations in Gaza. You'd be safer as a soldier than you are as a doctor when Israel is on the march, at least soldiers get body armor and are allowed to shoot back.
We have one MSF member documented as Hamas.
The relevance is ?
The point is you pretend that "MSF" must be a good guy. We have one case where it is clearly shown they were a very bad guy.
And the relevance of one bad guy to this death is…? And try to respond to the actual question and witount imputing straw men. I know moyjing about Mr Hayek and, clearly, neither do you.
You're not addressing my point.

"MSF" is being presented as evidence it was not a proper action. But one of the dead MSF people was also Hamas. Therefore, being MSF isn't proof they aren't Hamas and thus whether it was a proper action or not can't be established (except for the guy seen in Hamas uniform.)

Loren Pechtel said:
And note that Israel has called for the evacuation of Gaza City. Everyone there is either Hamas or a human shield.
You know this because you personally interviewed the remaining inhabitants? And since when is it moral to kill someone because they are making your task harder?
You object to Israel hitting civilians in combat areas, but you also object to Israel calling for civilians to leave combat areas. In other words, the only acceptable compliance is just sit there waiting to be killed.
That is non responsive to my question of how do you know that anyone remaining is either Hamas or a human shield? Please stop evading questions with straw men responses and ridiculous conclusions.
Civilians normally get out of the path of war if possible. Forces that we would typically consider to be on the good side generally try to get civilians out of the way (but can't always--they certainly wouldn't have told the French to get out of the way of the D-Day landings!) Civilians typically do get out of the way--except in Gaza. We have multiple examples of people describing being shot at for getting out of the danger zone and plenty of examples of Hamas deliberately forcing civilians into the danger zone.

Why in the world should I think this case is any different than what's gone before?

I object to the IDF telling people to move to “safe zones” and then attackjng the safe zones. So please stop misrepresenting my thoughts.
The IDF had people move away from the objects they wished to strike. That did not preclude Hamas using the crowds to strike from. And it doesn't even mean that people that died during the evacuation were killed by Israel. Supposedly Israel struck vehicles in the evacuation--but strangely the images never show a vehicle that's taken a hit from a modern weapon, nor do we see a crater. All we see is shrapnel damage--which says it was a roadside bomb, not a weapon from the sky.
 
Morals Dr Z?

What about the long running Israeli seizure of Palestinian land for Israeli settlers?

What about the founding of Israel itself by force taking land? That is where the conflict today began.

The brutality of Hams is an issue, in the news they are executing Palestinians. But it all began with Jews taking land owned by others.
The Jews are returning to their ancestral lands.
West Bank Jewish settlers have forced Palestinians off their land at gunpoint.
That has/is happened and is not defensible.
All predicated by a 2000 year old claim to the land given by a god.
The promise given to the Isrealites is greater than 2000 years old.
>2000 years ago we know that Jews were in that area. We have Roman, Greek etc. records. Their claim is long standing and backed by historical evidence.
 
The point is you pretend that "MSF" must be a good guy. We have one case where it is clearly shown they were a very bad guy.
You are never going to be able to produce a useful (or even rational) opinion on any moral issue while you insist on clinging to your insane insistence that "good guy" and "bad guy" are categories that are in some way sensible.
Globally, you're right. But in the context, yes, the terms are meaningful. A bad guy initiates bad actions, generally aiming at non-combatants. If a good guy shoots it's at combatants. (Remember, fog of war--mistakes will be made.)

In this case, Hamas = bad guy. Showing the guy in uniform shows he was a combatant.
 
How many are under the rubble? You're taking Hamas' word for it on that. Somehow there are 10,000--and the count doesn't change. That makes no sense--as time goes on the death count of any mass calamity drops as duplicates are resolved. We saw the same thing with the twin towers--10,000 missing, but it actually turned out to be about 2,500. It's a Hamas fabrication, just like basically everything else they say. Most things were evacuated before the bombs fell, there's little reason to think there's any great number in the rubble.
Who said 10,000? Sources I've posted here say Hamas does not count the missing as dead.
Hamas keeps claiming 10,000 buried in the rubble. I do not find it credible that this number has not changed appreciably over time.
 
If "violent Muslim supremacists" are the real problem, slaughtering thousands of innocent people who aren't "violent Muslism supremacists" is not going to help solve the problem. In fact, I am not seeing any evidence whatseover that slaughtering thousands of people who are "violent Muslim supremacists" is helpful.
It's Hamas trying to get those others killed so you'll blame Israel.
Have you noticed how the most powerful nations in the world keep losing wars to ragtag bands of angry religious extremists? You really think it's because their main strategy of killing lots of people was sound, they just didn't kill enough? Next time, they'll be able to kill enough bad guys and peace will reign? How is losing war after bloody war to extremist pseudo-Muslim militias supposed to make anyone safer?
No. I notice how powerful nations in the world keep losing wars to ragtag bands with untouchable supply lines. That's the determining factor, not why they fight or the merits of their cause.

I keep pointing this out, it keeps being ignored. Wars come down to the supply line.
 
I'm sorry. You're not getting a free pass on this. Especially not at a time when the world suddenly turned antisemitic on a dime. That was not the time and place to try to wiggle out of moral responsibility.
A genocide apologist is lecturing me on morality? There's a joke in there, but i doubt anyone would care to laugh.

If there ever was a time to take a stand and support the victims... this was it. And you failed in that. You supported the perpetrators.
I will always support the victims, not the perpetrators, of unjust wars. Often in very direct and material ways. I don't suppose you actually do anything for the refugees of the wars you support so casually? I do, and I assure you, human suffering does not occur only on one "side" of any war. Most people don't have a "side" when war begins, but it erases their life just the same. Most victims of war are children, who will never be given a chance to live a normal life at all as a result.
The tradegy of any war is all those who get caught up and suffer loss, injury and death.
There was no side you could have picked in this conflict that wouldn't have led to suffering. Pretending their was is moral cowardice IMHO.
Which is why, unlike you, I didn't pick a side.
Your constant criticism of Israel, your barely audible mutterings about Hamas tell us very clearly that you have taken sides as noted earlier.
You can take sides but do not try to tell us you are even handed in all of this.
 
Your constant criticism of Israel, your barely audible mutterings about Hamas tell us very clearly that you have taken sides as noted earlier.
Repeating a lie doesn't make it more true. Post proof of my "support of Hamas", or retract your false statement about me.
If you are very vocal about a particular sins of a "side" e.g. Israel yet barely mentioned the sins of the other then that tells us whom you care more about.
If your constantly say we should sanction Israel (as an example) yet have nothing to say what could be done against Hamas then you tell us whom you care most about.
The famous quote ""The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"" also applies to Hamas, not just Israel.
If nothing is done about Hamas it will triumph. The only ones doing something about Hamas are the Israelis.
You, the UN, have done nothing about stopping Hamas except clucth your pearls, swoon and wring your hands.
That, in this case, is next to useless.
 
I would like to note that it was diplomacy, not genocide, that saved these final survivors of the horror. In particular, American influence. Any American president could have chosen to do as Trump has done. Violence freed 8 hostages. 3 were murdered by their rescuers. 168 were rescued by conference. Let the lesson be clear.
I wonder what will save the next batch of Israeli civilians kidnapped by Gazan militants.
The clear lesson is that violent Muslim supremacists can kidnap civilians and their supporters, like you, will rally to their cause!
Tom
Leave ‘Muslim’ out of it. Like every other conflict, it’s all motivated by money and power, hiding under a cloak of religion.
There are two parts to what he said.

Yes, like every other conflict it's about power (money is a means to power).

But what he was referring to is how much the left supports one of the viler organization on Earth. Why do you bend over backwards to avoid blaming them for what they have done??
I think that Hana’s is vile. That is unrelated to Islam or Muslims.

Just as some, usually white ‘Christians ‘ are Nazis and/or white supremacists, most white people are not Nazis or white supremacists. Nor are most Christian’s Nazis or white supremacists. In fact, most Christians would say that Nazis white supremacists are are not Christians.
 

The latest victim of the onslaught was this guy, Omar Hayek, killed on his way out of the city to a satellite clinic. He was waiting at a bus stop. I sure it was a fucking terrorist bus stop. Murderers! This is the fourteenth killing of an MSF staff member since they began operations in Gaza. You'd be safer as a soldier than you are as a doctor when Israel is on the march, at least soldiers get body armor and are allowed to shoot back.
We have one MSF member documented as Hamas.
The relevance is ?
The point is you pretend that "MSF" must be a good guy. We have one case where it is clearly shown they were a very bad guy.
And the relevance of one bad guy to this death is…? And try to respond to the actual question and witount imputing straw men. I know moyjing about Mr Hayek and, clearly, neither do you.
You're not addressing my point.

"MSF" is being presented as evidence it was not a proper action. But one of the dead MSF people was also Hamas. Therefore, being MSF isn't proof they aren't Hamas and thus whether it was a proper action or not can't be established (except for the guy seen in Hamas uniform.)
Since most Gazans are not Hamas, one would think it is up to the IDF to show that Mr Hayek was a terrorist.
Loren Pechtel said:
And note that Israel has called for the evacuation of Gaza City. Everyone there is either Hamas or a human shield.
You know this because you personally interviewed the remaining inhabitants? And since when is it moral to kill someone because they are making your task harder?
You object to Israel hitting civilians in combat areas, but you also object to Israel calling for civilians to leave combat areas. In other words, the only acceptable compliance is just sit there waiting to be killed.
That is non responsive to my question of how do you know that anyone remaining is either Hamas or a human shield? Please stop evading questions with straw men responses and ridiculous conclusions.
Civilians normally get out of the path of war if possible. Forces that we would typically consider to be on the good side generally try to get civilians out of the way (but can't always--they certainly wouldn't have told the French to get out of the way of the D-Day landings!) Civilians typically do get out of the way--except in Gaza. We have multiple examples of people describing being shot at for getting out of the danger zone and plenty of examples of Hamas deliberately forcing civilians into the danger zone.
And we have plenty if examples if exhausted or injured civilians unable to move. Again, the burden of proof is on you.
Why in the world should I think this case is any different than what's gone before?

I object to the IDF telling people to move to “safe zones” and then attackjng the safe zones. So please stop misrepresenting my thoughts.
The IDF had people move away from the objects they wished to strike. That did not preclude Hamas using the crowds to strike from. And it doesn't even mean that people that died during the evacuation were killed by Israel. Supposedly Israel struck vehicles in the evacuation--but strangely the images never show a vehicle that's taken a hit from a modern weapon, nor do we see a crater. All we see is shrapnel damage--which says it was a roadside bomb, not a weapon from the sky.
We have reports of the IDF bombkng “safe” zones.
 
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