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MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
I guess that you and I think of things in a fundamentally different ways.

I think that anyone should be able to pursue whatever degree or degrees or level of education or training that they aspire to abd can handle.
I think that’s a fine utopian ideal. I don’t think society should be expected to foot the bill for personal hobbies. I don’t think anyone should be denied education, but I do think federally backed and guaranteed loans should benefit society, not just provide pleasure for the individual.

There are many, many ways to acquire knowledge for personal growth. Libraries, publications, even auditing classes are all available and I encourage them. Go learn things and be curious… but not all of it needs a degree.
I think it is a profound mistake to force most students to take on enormous student debt in order to have a shot at post secondary education.
I think asking what a student is going to do with that degree is a reasonable thing to ask. No, they shouldn’t need to take on enormous debt, but a huge amount of that education isn’t taken on with an eye to being self-sufficient in the future. Nobody has to take on loans if they don’t think they’ll be able to repay them. There are many, many ways to learn.
I believe that among the driving forces behind increasing requirements for ever more degrees as a way to keep ‘certain people’ out of some fields and safely in ‘their lane’
I think you’re extremely wrong and mislead on this. Especially as it simply isn’t what’s happening in the real world. This is a purely supply-demand result.
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.


I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions. If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
You seem to be conflating doctors fresh out of training with established physicians creating their own practice office. That rarely happens.

A $100,000 loan at the standard interest rate and at the required 8 year term comes out to over $1,400 per month. $200,000 is over $2,800. Both figures are way more than most people's house payments.

Indeed, interest needs to be taken into account. Quite often during residency, loan repayment is smaller and total to repay increases before they have the high salaries. Also, when we discuss averages, we're including a subset of economically elite who have very little debt to begin with. People who are not from well-to-do families will have more than average debt to repay at > 9% interest rate.
 
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
Not everybody needs to go to college.

Frankly, as a nation we are in desperate need for plumbers, electricians, carpenters, auto mechanics, general contractors, etc.

These careers can be quite financially rewarding, with among the biggest drawbacks being that it is not easy to do when you are 65 and not quite full SS qualified.

We also need more farmers who don't necessarily go to college and if they do, they are often supporting the farm by off farm work. Including spouses.

My town has always been a very low wage town but thankfully, more people are earning enough money to be able to only work one or 1.5 jobs instead of 2-3 or even 4 part time gigs with zero benefits.
 
I’m sorry if I misunderstood you: I was pointing out that whatever fee you pay for a doctor’s visit is not their personal money. Instead, your fee pays for all of the infrastructure costs and all of the costs of all of the other labor involved in running even a tiny practice.
Yes, I understood that. But such fees still leave a sugnificant amount leftover that places doctors in the top 5% income. And that’s just for general practitioners.

My overall point is that people frequently complain about insurance companies profiting off of people’s illness and misfortune, but are quite happy to overlook medical providers, suppliers, and pharmacies doing so at a much higher profit margin. Somehow, the fact that the cost of services is the absolute biggest driver of health care costs gets hand-waved away. And the claim of student loans justifying it is simply fallacious.
 
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.
How many watercolor artists, Russian literature majors, and women’s studies doctorates do you think taxpayers should be expected to pay for?

I feel like you’re either missing my point, or you’re ignoring human behavior. I’m all for education. I’m even for subsidized education if the public gets a benefit from it. But I also know people who will happily be perpetually students or pursue the figurative “underwater basket weaving” just because they think it’s fun.

I have no objection to people studying whatever they want to… I only have a problem with everyone else being expected to pay for it without a benefit to society in return.
I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions.
Supply and demand relates to 1) tuition inflation and 2) employers requiring degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t benefit from a degree and 3) the impact of guaranteed loans.
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
 
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
Not everybody needs to go to college.

Frankly, as a nation we are in desperate need for plumbers, electricians, carpenters, auto mechanics, general contractors, etc.

These careers can be quite financially rewarding, with among the biggest drawbacks being that it is not easy to do when you are 65 and not quite full SS qualified.

We also need more farmers who don't necessarily go to college and if they do, they are often supporting the farm by off farm work. Including spouses.

My town has always been a very low wage town but thankfully, more people are earning enough money to be able to only work one or 1.5 jobs instead of 2-3 or even 4 part time gigs with zero benefits.
100% agree. I’d really to see federally subsidized skilled trades and agricultural training.
 
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.
How many watercolor artists, Russian literature majors, and women’s studies doctorates do you think taxpayers should be expected to pay for?

I feel like you’re either missing my point, or you’re ignoring human behavior. I’m all for education. I’m even for subsidized education if the public gets a benefit from it. But I also know people who will happily be perpetually students or pursue the figurative “underwater basket weaving” just because they think it’s fun.

I have no objection to people studying whatever they want to… I only have a problem with everyone else being expected to pay for it without a benefit to society in return.
I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions.
Supply and demand relates to 1) tuition inflation and 2) employers requiring degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t benefit from a degree and 3) the impact of guaranteed loans.
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
Why shouldn’t we care about degrees that are focused on women’s perspectives instead of the 99.99% of the other areas of study that are male centric?

What is wrong with studying art? Do you have even a tiny inkling of just how much art affects your life every day?

You don’t think literature has anything to teach us as a society?

I would argue that the downfall of any society is to ignore or relegate to inconsequential the arts. Oh, wait! Now we have AI to think for us! To create for us! We just need to consume and defecate, one long alimentary canal, no need of a brain or sensory system beyond what functions to consume and defecate shit.

I’ve learned from experience that it is often the side academic interests that can feed you and house you. My father thought it ridiculous that I’d waste time studying Shakespeare or French instead of taking only science classes. I thought they were fun and interesting and kept different parts of my brain happy. I never dreamed they’d ever be something I used or relied on for work. As rudimentary as was my grasp of French, I was good enough that it got me a job that supported myself and my husband his first three years of grad school. It turned out that Shakespeare gave me enough background in theater that, along with a record of being a good fundraiser, it landed me another job working in a university performance center. No one was more shocked than I was. And I was —am still grateful. Those jobs allowed me to support my family and better balance work/life than my ‘real’ job that paid well and involved a long commute, a lot of stress, and a lot more money—and a lot less fun.

I know: You should google careers for liberal arts majors! You’d be surprised.
 
These days a lot, maybe many skilled technical workers like plumbers, LPNs, electricians etc require 2 year degrees. I do agree that we need more people in these areas. At least most community colleges are still somewhat affordable, but there should at the very least be employer programs that help pay back any loans made by the graduates if they need help.


Everyone getting any type of degree should be required to take English composition as having good documentation and communication skills are vitally important in most careers. Today, a lot of high school grads can't even write a complete sentence or spell very well. I realized that while working in long term care since part of my job was reviewing and signing the caregivers notes. Even a lot of the RNs I supervised as a QA nurse had very poor writing skills. Maybe that's something that can't be fixed. I also reviewed the notes of doctors in a job I had for less than a year as I hated to travel. My team reviewed nursing homes for quality of care all over the state of NC and some of the doctors had very poor writing skills. I once told a former doctor of mine that she really needed a QA nurse as her records were deplorable. She agreed but no-one was ever hired to review the records. Ok....enough ranting about that....
 
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.
How many watercolor artists, Russian literature majors, and women’s studies doctorates do you think taxpayers should be expected to pay for?

I feel like you’re either missing my point, or you’re ignoring human behavior. I’m all for education. I’m even for subsidized education if the public gets a benefit from it. But I also know people who will happily be perpetually students or pursue the figurative “underwater basket weaving” just because they think it’s fun.

I have no objection to people studying whatever they want to… I only have a problem with everyone else being expected to pay for it without a benefit to society in return.
I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions.
Supply and demand relates to 1) tuition inflation and 2) employers requiring degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t benefit from a degree and 3) the impact of guaranteed loans.
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
First of all, I was not insinuating racism. Second of all: yeah, it still happens. I see it. I hear it.

But I wasn’t particularly thinking of race when I wrote that. People have always tended to want to hire someone who is familiar: went to the same college or like/played the same ( sport usually), grew up in the same region or a similar one, etc. and in not too long ago times, came recommended by your old college room mate/frat brother who happens to be the uncle or second cousin of the young man standing before you.

I actually understand this. It’s always risky to hire someone and you want someone who ‘fits’ into the culture of the workplace, who is reliable, who will get the job done. There’s some social pressure involved, not to let down Uncle Charles, etc. but the pressure goes both ways.

The only thing wrong with that is, as you pointed out, racism, and of course sexism and provincially that limits the candidate pool and also limits the perspectives brought to the table.
 
Your post doesn’t connect to mine in any rational way. Why exactly did you quote me?
Are you kidding? Try reading what you wrote again, and matching it up to my response. My response is precisely and specifically a refutation of what you said.

It may not connect to what you were thinking when you wrote it; But I can only respond to what you actually write.

I am criticising your rather foolish mischaracterisation of what money is, and of what government spending is as a consequence.

If you are so mired in that failure to understand what money is, that you fail to even notice when you express your error in writing, then I can only recommend that you try greater introspection.

Your attitude towards government expenditure is seriously problematic, for the reasons given, and it is leading you to policy positions that are harming your country, not least because it is a very popular error to make.
 
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.
How many watercolor artists, Russian literature majors, and women’s studies doctorates do you think taxpayers should be expected to pay for?

I feel like you’re either missing my point, or you’re ignoring human behavior. I’m all for education. I’m even for subsidized education if the public gets a benefit from it. But I also know people who will happily be perpetually students or pursue the figurative “underwater basket weaving” just because they think it’s fun.

I have no objection to people studying whatever they want to… I only have a problem with everyone else being expected to pay for it without a benefit to society in return.
I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions.
Supply and demand relates to 1) tuition inflation and 2) employers requiring degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t benefit from a degree and 3) the impact of guaranteed loans.
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
Why shouldn’t we care about degrees that are focused on women’s perspectives instead of the 99.99% of the other areas of study that are male centric?

What is wrong with studying art? Do you have even a tiny inkling of just how much art affects your life every day?

You don’t think literature has anything to teach us as a society?

I would argue that the downfall of any society is to ignore or relegate to inconsequential the arts. Oh, wait! Now we have AI to think for us! To create for us! We just need to consume and defecate, one long alimentary canal, no need of a brain or sensory system beyond what functions to consume and defecate shit.

I’ve learned from experience that it is often the side academic interests that can feed you and house you. My father thought it ridiculous that I’d waste time studying Shakespeare or French instead of taking only science classes. I thought they were fun and interesting and kept different parts of my brain happy. I never dreamed they’d ever be something I used or relied on for work. As rudimentary as was my grasp of French, I was good enough that it got me a job that supported myself and my husband his first three years of grad school. It turned out that Shakespeare gave me enough background in theater that, along with a record of being a good fundraiser, it landed me another job working in a university performance center. No one was more shocked than I was. And I was —am still grateful. Those jobs allowed me to support my family and better balance work/life than my ‘real’ job that paid well and involved a long commute, a lot of stress, and a lot more money—and a lot less fun.

I know: You should google careers for liberal arts majors! You’d be surprised.
You seem really determined to think I don't support education. I've explained it several different ways, at great length. This will be my last attempt to get the nuance across.

I'm all for education, but I don't think the public should be expected to take the financial risk when there's not a reasonable certainty of a return on our investment. Tax funds, whether through direct grants, subsidized tuition, or guaranteed loans, should be used wisely and in the interests of the public as a whole. It shouldn't be handed out merely for people to pursue things that make them happy. If it turns out that what makes someone happy is also good for society, then awesome - that's a double win. But if someone wants to spend their lives as a perpetual student collecting degrees like pokemon in fields where they can't actually find gainful employment, I think that's a problem.

By all means, fund trades and agriculture and STEM and medicine, and technology, and things that we as a society actually need. I doubt I've provided a comprehensive list - I don't claim to be an expert here. Basically, taxpayer funds should support the benefit of everyone. If someone wants to study something else, great - but they do so through private loans, scholarships, or on their own dime.

Please not that absolutely nothing I've written justifies any insinuation of suggestion of racism from you. So kindly refrain from foisting race into this interaction, it has no place here.
 
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
First of all, I was not insinuating racism. Second of all: yeah, it still happens. I see it. I hear it.

But I wasn’t particularly thinking of race when I wrote that. People have always tended to want to hire someone who is familiar: went to the same college or like/played the same ( sport usually), grew up in the same region or a similar one, etc. and in not too long ago times, came recommended by your old college room mate/frat brother who happens to be the uncle or second cousin of the young man standing before you.

I actually understand this. It’s always risky to hire someone and you want someone who ‘fits’ into the culture of the workplace, who is reliable, who will get the job done. There’s some social pressure involved, not to let down Uncle Charles, etc. but the pressure goes both ways.

The only thing wrong with that is, as you pointed out, racism, and of course sexism and provincially that limits the candidate pool and also limits the perspectives brought to the table.
I've had dozens of jobs throughout my life, in several different states, both the north and the south, east and west. Over and over again, the priorities I've seen employed in hiring are 1) can they do the job we need done and 2) will they work well with others. That's it.

Maybe once in a while someone will have a bias for a school, or due to a common acquaintance. That is something that ought to be avoided, when possible, but it's not necessarily a bad thing - a recommendation from someone who you already know has done good work is a useful indicator. But that goes the other way too, there are a few people who've asked me to refer them or to recommend them for a job and I've refrained because I know they're a pain in the ass to work with. I'll give them a link to a posted job, but I'm absolutely not going to tie my name to theirs because I know they're the source of the problems they've faced in their careers.

Basically, the things you keep referencing as "how things get done" haven't been my experience. And my experience crosses a wide range of locations and jobs. So I think either you've had a sample that isn't representative, or you're hearing hoofbeats and assuming zebras.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That said... I do have a very definite bias toward military veterans. It may not be a perfect indicator... but military service is the closest thing I've found to guarantee that the person will show up on time, dress appropriately for the setting, be able to work with a variety of people whether they like them as people or not, and will get the job done. They'll be effective and reliable. They're highly unlikely to be the ones causing problems... well... except for a tendency toward gallows humor that some sensitive types won't be able to handle.
 
I don’t think anyone should have to take out any loans in order to pursue a university or college degree.
How many watercolor artists, Russian literature majors, and women’s studies doctorates do you think taxpayers should be expected to pay for?

I feel like you’re either missing my point, or you’re ignoring human behavior. I’m all for education. I’m even for subsidized education if the public gets a benefit from it. But I also know people who will happily be perpetually students or pursue the figurative “underwater basket weaving” just because they think it’s fun.

I have no objection to people studying whatever they want to… I only have a problem with everyone else being expected to pay for it without a benefit to society in return.
I don’t see how supply/demand fits your assertions.
Supply and demand relates to 1) tuition inflation and 2) employers requiring degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t benefit from a degree and 3) the impact of guaranteed loans.
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
Why shouldn’t we care about degrees that are focused on women’s perspectives instead of the 99.99% of the other areas of study that are male centric?

What is wrong with studying art? Do you have even a tiny inkling of just how much art affects your life every day?

You don’t think literature has anything to teach us as a society?

I would argue that the downfall of any society is to ignore or relegate to inconsequential the arts. Oh, wait! Now we have AI to think for us! To create for us! We just need to consume and defecate, one long alimentary canal, no need of a brain or sensory system beyond what functions to consume and defecate shit.

I’ve learned from experience that it is often the side academic interests that can feed you and house you. My father thought it ridiculous that I’d waste time studying Shakespeare or French instead of taking only science classes. I thought they were fun and interesting and kept different parts of my brain happy. I never dreamed they’d ever be something I used or relied on for work. As rudimentary as was my grasp of French, I was good enough that it got me a job that supported myself and my husband his first three years of grad school. It turned out that Shakespeare gave me enough background in theater that, along with a record of being a good fundraiser, it landed me another job working in a university performance center. No one was more shocked than I was. And I was —am still grateful. Those jobs allowed me to support my family and better balance work/life than my ‘real’ job that paid well and involved a long commute, a lot of stress, and a lot more money—and a lot less fun.

I know: You should google careers for liberal arts majors! You’d be surprised.
You seem really determined to think I don't support education. I've explained it several different ways, at great length. This will be my last attempt to get the nuance across.

I'm all for education, but I don't think the public should be expected to take the financial risk when there's not a reasonable certainty of a return on our investment. Tax funds, whether through direct grants, subsidized tuition, or guaranteed loans, should be used wisely and in the interests of the public as a whole. It shouldn't be handed out merely for people to pursue things that make them happy. If it turns out that what makes someone happy is also good for society, then awesome - that's a double win. But if someone wants to spend their lives as a perpetual student collecting degrees like pokemon in fields where they can't actually find gainful employment, I think that's a problem.

By all means, fund trades and agriculture and STEM and medicine, and technology, and things that we as a society actually need. I doubt I've provided a comprehensive list - I don't claim to be an expert here. Basically, taxpayer funds should support the benefit of everyone. If someone wants to study something else, great - but they do so through private loans, scholarships, or on their own dime.

Please not that absolutely nothing I've written justifies any insinuation of suggestion of racism from you. So kindly refrain from foisting race into this interaction, it has no place here.
No, we just fundamentally disagree.

I see education as a public good, just as police and fire departments and hospitals and highways and streets and the maintenance of such. Not just public good but a public necessity.

As such, I support funding education much better than we do currently.

I’m all for higher taxes ( not just property taxes, in fact, probably NOT increasing most property taxes on primary residences) and yeah, that would hit me in my bank account.

As for student loans: I’d like to see them become less necessary and interest free.

I’m ok with disagreeing with you.
 
If fits mine better if the only supply you are looking at is the one that most closely resembles yourself. This, btw, is what has always happened in hiring. People look for something safe and since they see how X type of person works in the environment, they want to hire more people exactly like X. Maybe with some different skill sets but otherwise: more of the same. X can be a sex/gender, a skin color, a religious affiliation, a regional background, educational background in familiar schools, etc. Businesses are pretty conservative, actually and business people tend to wish to minimize risk which means preferring the familiar.
I don’t know why you insist on stuffing insinuated racism into our interaction here. Especially since the racism you talk about really isn’t happening in reality.
First of all, I was not insinuating racism. Second of all: yeah, it still happens. I see it. I hear it.

But I wasn’t particularly thinking of race when I wrote that. People have always tended to want to hire someone who is familiar: went to the same college or like/played the same ( sport usually), grew up in the same region or a similar one, etc. and in not too long ago times, came recommended by your old college room mate/frat brother who happens to be the uncle or second cousin of the young man standing before you.

I actually understand this. It’s always risky to hire someone and you want someone who ‘fits’ into the culture of the workplace, who is reliable, who will get the job done. There’s some social pressure involved, not to let down Uncle Charles, etc. but the pressure goes both ways.

The only thing wrong with that is, as you pointed out, racism, and of course sexism and provincially that limits the candidate pool and also limits the perspectives brought to the table.
I've had dozens of jobs throughout my life, in several different states, both the north and the south, east and west. Over and over again, the priorities I've seen employed in hiring are 1) can they do the job we need done and 2) will they work well with others. That's it.

Maybe once in a while someone will have a bias for a school, or due to a common acquaintance. That is something that ought to be avoided, when possible, but it's not necessarily a bad thing - a recommendation from someone who you already know has done good work is a useful indicator. But that goes the other way too, there are a few people who've asked me to refer them or to recommend them for a job and I've refrained because I know they're a pain in the ass to work with. I'll give them a link to a posted job, but I'm absolutely not going to tie my name to theirs because I know they're the source of the problems they've faced in their careers.

Basically, the things you keep referencing as "how things get done" haven't been my experience. And my experience crosses a wide range of locations and jobs. So I think either you've had a sample that isn't representative, or you're hearing hoofbeats and assuming zebras.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That said... I do have a very definite bias toward military veterans. It may not be a perfect indicator... but military service is the closest thing I've found to guarantee that the person will show up on time, dress appropriately for the setting, be able to work with a variety of people whether they like them as people or not, and will get the job done. They'll be effective and reliable. They're highly unlikely to be the ones causing problems... well... except for a tendency toward gallows humor that some sensitive types won't be able to handle.
I’ve also had a number of jobs as an adult. Maybe it’s the fact that I moved to a smallish town in a fairly rural area but frankly every single job I’ve had since I’ve lived here I got because of knowing the right person or being known because of volunteer work in the community. Including a job at a retry major employer ( largest in my state outside of the public sector). Honestly that surprised me. The truth is that I was on my last day as a temp employee when I ran into a firmer classmate in the elevator as I was leaving. During our catch up, she asked if I had a resume because her work unit was looking for someone and her supervisor preferred to hire people who other people in the lab already knew. So after months of applying and getting rejection letters from this same employer, I got an interview and was hired. It absolutely did help that the supervisor in the area where I was temping wanted to keep me and couldn’t and offered to be a reference—and was on the interview committee.

I’ve also listened to people sorting through dozens and dozens of applications to a single position—after the first round of: do they meet the basic requirements. One of the things they considered was the likelihood of the applicant accepting the job and staying in the position as the location is in this place a couple of hours away from the nearest larger city.
 
No, we just fundamentally disagree.

I see education as a public good, just as police and fire departments and hospitals and highways and streets and the maintenance of such. Not just public good but a public necessity.

As such, I support funding education much better than we do currently.

I’m all for higher taxes ( not just property taxes, in fact, probably NOT increasing most property taxes on primary residences) and yeah, that would hit me in my bank account.

As for student loans: I’d like to see them become less necessary and interest free.

I’m ok with disagreeing with you.
I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to think we do. It's a matter of degree (pun intended ;)).

Education as a nebulous concept is certainly a public good. But not all fields of study are useful to the same degree. We need police and firefighters and doctors and nurses and computers and infrastructure and food and shelter - 100% agree. We need MORE of those. Art is nice, I like art - I married an artist! But we don't need art, not in the same way and not to the same extent.

Humor me for a moment :) Think about elementary kids. Imagine that they got to choose what classes they wanted to study. What portion of kids in elementary school would choose to study PE and Band and Art and would decline to study Math and Spelling?

What do you think would happen if kids got to choose what they wanted to study from elementary all the way through college degrees? What mix of graduates do you think we'd end up with, and do you think that mix will meet the needs of society?

When we're using public funds - which I don't object to - I think there's an obligation on the government to ensure that we get a return on our investments. I'd be just fine if the government decided to incentivize schools to turn out more doctors - I literally just voted to provide tax funding to community colleges in my state with a focus on skilled trades, building, nursing, and pre-med classes. I don't think there's a need to incentivize more artists. That doesn't mean artists aren't valuable, it doesn't mean people should be prohibited from becoming artists. It just means that maybe that's not the best place to invest if the objective is to benefit all of society.
 
No, we just fundamentally disagree.

I see education as a public good, just as police and fire departments and hospitals and highways and streets and the maintenance of such. Not just public good but a public necessity.

As such, I support funding education much better than we do currently.

I’m all for higher taxes ( not just property taxes, in fact, probably NOT increasing most property taxes on primary residences) and yeah, that would hit me in my bank account.

As for student loans: I’d like to see them become less necessary and interest free.

I’m ok with disagreeing with you.
I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to think we do. It's a matter of degree (pun intended ;)).

Education as a nebulous concept is certainly a public good. But not all fields of study are useful to the same degree. We need police and firefighters and doctors and nurses and computers and infrastructure and food and shelter - 100% agree. We need MORE of those. Art is nice, I like art - I married an artist! But we don't need art, not in the same way and not to the same extent.

Humor me for a moment :) Think about elementary kids. Imagine that they got to choose what classes they wanted to study. What portion of kids in elementary school would choose to study PE and Band and Art and would decline to study Math and Spelling?

What do you think would happen if kids got to choose what they wanted to study from elementary all the way through college degrees? What mix of graduates do you think we'd end up with, and do you think that mix will meet the needs of society?

When we're using public funds - which I don't object to - I think there's an obligation on the government to ensure that we get a return on our investments. I'd be just fine if the government decided to incentivize schools to turn out more doctors - I literally just voted to provide tax funding to community colleges in my state with a focus on skilled trades, building, nursing, and pre-med classes. I don't think there's a need to incentivize more artists. That doesn't mean artists aren't valuable, it doesn't mean people should be prohibited from becoming artists. It just means that maybe that's not the best place to invest if the objective is to benefit all of society.
How do you measure "benefit all of society"? If you are only including monetized returns, then the definition of "benefit all of society" is rather restrictive. And how do you factor in non-monetized benefits?
 
One of the things they considered was the likelihood of the applicant accepting the job and staying in the position as the location is in this place a couple of hours away from the nearest larger city.
Well, yes, that's also a consideration when you get to second round or tie-breaker decisions.

My point was that race and sex and all the rest just really isn't a consideration in any job I've had. That kind of scrutiny just isn't common anymore, and would be a very unusual outlier if it were, or if it were even suspected.
 
One of the things they considered was the likelihood of the applicant accepting the job and staying in the position as the location is in this place a couple of hours away from the nearest larger city.
Well, yes, that's also a consideration when you get to second round or tie-breaker decisions.

My point was that race and sex and all the rest just really isn't a consideration in any job I've had. That kind of scrutiny just isn't common anymore, and would be a very unusual outlier if it were, or if it were even suspected.
Race may not be a common issue on the part of employers anymore but I know that many candidates of color who were born in the US turn down job offers in my town which is much more diverse than it used to be but still over 90% white.

And sadly enough, I've witnessed some pretty nasty racism in my own workplaces--both long ago and not that long ago at a place and in a time when that should have been 100% unacceptable by anyone's measure. It should ALWAYS have been unacceptable but in the 70's? Yeah, lots of racism in employment. I was disgusted but not too surprised except at the fact that it wasn't limited to the county where I grew up but existed in even very urban/international settings. And even more disgusted and appalled when it happened a few years ago at my last employer (on the part of employees at the same level as I was). It should never have been an issue and it definitely should not be an issue anymore. But it is, unfortunately.

I'm glad if your experience and observations have been different.
 
No, we just fundamentally disagree.

I see education as a public good, just as police and fire departments and hospitals and highways and streets and the maintenance of such. Not just public good but a public necessity.

As such, I support funding education much better than we do currently.

I’m all for higher taxes ( not just property taxes, in fact, probably NOT increasing most property taxes on primary residences) and yeah, that would hit me in my bank account.

As for student loans: I’d like to see them become less necessary and interest free.

I’m ok with disagreeing with you.
I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to think we do. It's a matter of degree (pun intended ;)).

Education as a nebulous concept is certainly a public good. But not all fields of study are useful to the same degree. We need police and firefighters and doctors and nurses and computers and infrastructure and food and shelter - 100% agree. We need MORE of those. Art is nice, I like art - I married an artist! But we don't need art, not in the same way and not to the same extent.

Humor me for a moment :) Think about elementary kids. Imagine that they got to choose what classes they wanted to study. What portion of kids in elementary school would choose to study PE and Band and Art and would decline to study Math and Spelling?

What do you think would happen if kids got to choose what they wanted to study from elementary all the way through college degrees? What mix of graduates do you think we'd end up with, and do you think that mix will meet the needs of society?

When we're using public funds - which I don't object to - I think there's an obligation on the government to ensure that we get a return on our investments. I'd be just fine if the government decided to incentivize schools to turn out more doctors - I literally just voted to provide tax funding to community colleges in my state with a focus on skilled trades, building, nursing, and pre-med classes. I don't think there's a need to incentivize more artists. That doesn't mean artists aren't valuable, it doesn't mean people should be prohibited from becoming artists. It just means that maybe that's not the best place to invest if the objective is to benefit all of society.
Well, when I was in elementary school, I would have chosen math, science (which really was not taught at the elementary level where I grew up and so I thought I hated it despite reading a lot of books that were about science and didn't figure out that I liked science until the 7th grade when I was first taught anything resembling science) art and literature. If someone as good as Heather Cox Richardson, or my friend Karen had been teaching history, I might have enjoyed it instead of despising it.

I did not care for my music teacher or my art teacher but I did learn from them both. I like art so I got more from that and deliberately took art classes in high school. Unfortunately, in university, art classes tended to be limited to art majors and I was a biology major so.......

We did not really have PE in my elementary. We had recess and ran around and played on monkey bars and played with basketballs and kickballs and I took a really big hit to the nose with a football. Plus tag and all the usual school yard games. Somehow, never dodge ball....

My own kids did not have much recess time in elementary school, which imo, is a huge mistake.

If my kids had had choices in elementary school, depending on the kid, they would have chosen art, music, literature, any foreign language, math and science. One or two would have chosen history or social studies.

Yes, art is absolutely as essential as music and theater and literature and science and math. Written by someone who is definitely a science person and half a math person.
 
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No, we just fundamentally disagree.

I see education as a public good, just as police and fire departments and hospitals and highways and streets and the maintenance of such. Not just public good but a public necessity.

As such, I support funding education much better than we do currently.

I’m all for higher taxes ( not just property taxes, in fact, probably NOT increasing most property taxes on primary residences) and yeah, that would hit me in my bank account.

As for student loans: I’d like to see them become less necessary and interest free.

I’m ok with disagreeing with you.
I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to think we do. It's a matter of degree (pun intended ;)).

Education as a nebulous concept is certainly a public good. But not all fields of study are useful to the same degree. We need police and firefighters and doctors and nurses and computers and infrastructure and food and shelter - 100% agree. We need MORE of those. Art is nice, I like art - I married an artist! But we don't need art, not in the same way and not to the same extent.

Humor me for a moment :) Think about elementary kids. Imagine that they got to choose what classes they wanted to study. What portion of kids in elementary school would choose to study PE and Band and Art and would decline to study Math and Spelling?

What do you think would happen if kids got to choose what they wanted to study from elementary all the way through college degrees? What mix of graduates do you think we'd end up with, and do you think that mix will meet the needs of society?

When we're using public funds - which I don't object to - I think there's an obligation on the government to ensure that we get a return on our investments. I'd be just fine if the government decided to incentivize schools to turn out more doctors - I literally just voted to provide tax funding to community colleges in my state with a focus on skilled trades, building, nursing, and pre-med classes. I don't think there's a need to incentivize more artists. That doesn't mean artists aren't valuable, it doesn't mean people should be prohibited from becoming artists. It just means that maybe that's not the best place to invest if the objective is to benefit all of society.
How do you measure "benefit all of society"? If you are only including monetized returns, then the definition of "benefit all of society" is rather restrictive. And how do you factor in non-monetized benefits?
I'm going to need you to elaborate on this question. Unless I've magically inferred what you're after, but I don't have a lot of confidence that I'm understanding you.

My only consideration from a monetary perspective is whether or not the student's field of study is likely to result in them being able to pay back their student loan.

The benefit to society isn't necessarily making money for everyone else, or even making a lot of money for themselves. The benefit to society from my perspective is access to needed skills as a minimum, then expansion to "nice to have" things. I don't claim to have a perfect hierarchy of everything, but I've got some broad categories. So farmers fall into the "need to have" category. That doesn't mean we all need lobsters and imported dragonfruit, but we need to not starve to death, right? At the other end, actors are "nice to have" - our lives are nice because we have TV shows and movies and such, but if hollywood were Thanosed off the planet entirely, we'd all get by. We might be bored, but nobody's going to die.

Consider it more or less in line with Maslow's hierarchy. We have to have shelter and food and basic security, we want to have some additional things, but nobody actually *needs* soda pop, right?
 
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