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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

The historical persons Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are identified.
Where? They don't mention themselves in the Gospels.

lpetrich said:
• Matthew and Luke plagiarized Mark very heavily, making word-for-word copies of much of that gospel.
Only a small fraction is word-for-word quotes.
Did you count?

Synoptic problem | Theopedia
About 90 percent of Mark's material is found in Matthew, while about 50 percent of Mark is found in Luke. In addition, nearly 235 verses in Matthew and Luke are similar to one another.
That's massive plagiarism.
• Either Matthew and Luke plagiarized an additional source, "Q", or else Luke plagiarized Matthew also.
Despite your glee at repeating the buzz-word "plagiarized" again and again for bombastic effect, the truth is that there's nothing wrong with a document quoting an earlier source. How does this make a source less credible?
So "plagiarism" is not a Politically Correct term for what "Matthew" and "Luke" did? Should I say "originality-challenged"?

But that means that the Synoptics, at least, were *not* independent sources.

Lumpenproletariat said:
Very few ancient writings give their sources.
Did you count?

(on an infinite regress of sources...)
Such a regress would stop at direct observation.
lpetrich said:
• The Gospels use lots of direct speech (lpetrich said "I am writing a post") as opposed to indirect speech (lpetrich said that he is writing a post), making them much more like fictional works than like historical works.

No, Herodotus and Livy are historians who used many "direct" speech quotes, like the gospel accounts. Josephus, by contrast, avoids quoting characters.
Did you count?

Greek Popular Biography: Romance, Contest, Gospel | Κέλσος contains some counts.

WorkF vs. H% Dir
CallirhoeF61.6
AsenethF59.4
The Protevangelium of JamesF53.2
Acts-51.0
JudithF50.0
SusannaF46.0
The Ephesian TaleF38.9
The Alexander RomanceF34.4
Sallust, CatilineH28.3
3 MaccabeesF21.5
Sallust, JugurthaH17.3
Plutarch, AlexanderH12.1
Tacitus, AgricolaH11.5
2 MaccabeesH11.2
Josephus, Jewish War IH8.8
Polybius, Histories IH(trace)
F = fictional, H = historical, Dir = direct speech
Even if many of the Bible "direct speech" quotes are really the words of the author and not the character named, or are a loose paraphrase of what the character might have said, this does not undermine the credibility of that Bible account.
It does, because it concedes that parts of it come from the imagination of the authors.

• The Gospels use a third-person-omniscient perspective instead of a first-person limited-knowledge perspective, also more like fictional works than like historical works.
No, historical works used the "third-person" perspective much more than the "first-person" perspective.
Did you count?

The rest is mainly special pleading about the Gospels, and it was snipped for brevity.
 
I like this image:

350px-Relationship_between_synoptic_gospels-en.svg.png

 Gospel_of_Matthew
The Gospel of Matthew is anonymous: the author is not named within the text, and the superscription "according to Matthew" was added some time in the 2nd century.

 Gospel_of_Mark
The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.[6] Early Christian tradition ascribes it to John Mark, a companion and interpreter of the apostle Peter.[7] Hence its author is often called Mark, even though most modern scholars are doubtful of the Markan tradition and instead regard the author as unknown

 Gospel_of_Luke
The gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles make up a two-volume work which scholars call Luke–Acts.[12] Together they account for 27.5% of the New Testament, the largest contribution by a single author, providing the framework for both the Church's liturgical calendar and the historical outline into which later generations have fitted their idea of the story of Jesus.[13]
The author is not named in either volume.

 Gospel_of_John
The Gospel of John is anonymous. Traditionally, Christians have identified the author as "the Disciple whom Jesus loved" mentioned in John 21:24,[15] who is understood to be John son of Zebedee, one of Jesus' Twelve Apostles. These identifications, however, are rejected by many modern biblical scholars.[1][16][Notes 5] Nevertheless, the author of the fourth Gospel is sometimes called John the Evangelist, often out of convenience since the definitive name of the author is still debated.
 
MkMtLkfracs
X3%
X20%
XX18%,10%
X35%
XX3%,1%
XX24%,23%
XXX76%,46%,41%
Since Mark is likely the first of these three, we have a likely revision chain: Mark - Matthew - Luke
 
Do the Gospels belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily FICTION?

(continued from previous Wall of Text)


Here are some links on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

I.e., the categorizing flaw: anything in the "fictional" category has to be fiction because it is in that category or "genre" of literature. I.e., circular logic: It is fiction because we assign it to a fiction "genre" and then preach that it must be fiction because of its assignment to that "genre" vs. some other category.


There's no evidence in these links that the Jesus miracle stories are fictional. Rather, the methodology is to assign the Gospel accounts to a "genre" labeled as "fiction" (or "novelistic") and then declare "See, the Gospels must be fiction because they're in this fiction genre."


What "GENRE" of ancient literature do the Gospels really belong to?

• Any document of this "genre" relates historical events, reported as factual, which are placed into a historical time frame and into the events of that time, despite whether intermixed with fictional or religious or propaganda elements.

• The document was written near to the time of the events, not several centuries later.

• The document is short, by comparison to mainline historical writings, and focused on one special event or limited range of events rather than treating history broadly.

The above literature type, which the Gospel writings belong to, is ignored by Matthew Ferguson, throughout these links, while he instead places the Gospels artificially into some kind of "fiction" category, based on supposed similarities between them and the literature in that category; and then, because of this categorization we're supposed to designate them as fiction, on the rationale that they must be because they're in that category, as decreed by established scholars with Authority to Bind and to Loose all literature types neatly into Ferguson's all-encompassing universal categorizing scheme.


The ways in which the Gospels diverge from and fall short of the historical writing of their time are perhaps too numerous to exhaustively treat here, but I will discuss ten relevant areas of distinction that are helpful for understanding how historical writing is different. . . .

2. Internally Addressed and Analyzed Contradictions among Traditions

Contradictions among sources are inevitable when undertaking historical analysis, whether the author be Pagan or Christian. For this reason, as I explain in my essay “Bible Contradictions: Why Are They There? What Do They Entail?,” such contradictions are not ipso facto a major reason why I am distrustful of the Gospels. Rather, it is the way that the Gospels treat contradictions that makes them less credible.

And how do they treat contradictions? Farther down it's apparent that Ferguson never answers this, but only gets a charge out of rehashing the famous disharmony between Luke and Matthew on the Bethlehem story -- he never says anything about how "the Gospels treat" this contradiction, or any contradiction, never fulfilling his above promise to compare how "the Gospels treat contradictions" vs. how other sources treat them. The real answer is: there is no difference -- virtually all the ancient writers ignored contradictions 99% of the time, having no interest in treating them at all.

Consider the well-known contradictions between the accounts of Jesus’ birth in the gospels Matthew and Luke. Luke 2 has Jesus’ family travel from their hometown in Nazareth to Bethlehem, due to the Census of Quirinius (6 CE). There is no room at any inn, so Jesus is born in a manger. After waiting the appropriate time required by Jewish law, Jesus’ parents take him to the Jewish Temple, perform the rituals surrounding a male childbirth, and then return to Nazareth.

Matthew’s account (chapters 1-2) is very different. In Matthew, Joseph and Mary are already living in Bethlehem, . . .
etc.

We needn't rehash these inconsistencies, for the millionth time, between Luke and Matthew on the birth. It's easy to distinguish the historical factual element from the likely fiction element due to legend-building. But before the legend-building can happen, there has to be an original NON-fiction legend, or original event which actually happened, to which the mythologizing could then be added. There are no examples of a historical hero-myth legend which did not originate from an original actual hero figure who was distinguished in some way.

So, what distinguished the original Jesus figure to whom this myth-making was added? This is what no one, including Ferguson, is answering. We have no other figure to whom such messiah-myth-making was added. And, any historical figure later made into a legend had to be uniquely distinguished in some way. In real history they must have been a hero celebrity of some kind. So, what was special about the historical Jesus person that so many educated writers all converged on this one person only and made him the prophecy-fulfilling miracle-working Messiah? Was there any other such figure? Who?


Why is Jesus the only reported Messiah?
who had to be born in Bethlehem, etc.?

Why did the Messiah-makers choose only this person, no others, to serve this function?

What really matters about the two birth stories in Luke and Matthew is not the simplistic observation that the stories are inconsistent (or don't harmonize), but rather the question why these two writers/editors both felt driven toward Hebrew prophecy to explain this Jesus person and to make him into the Messiah who had to be born in Bethlehem. What drove them to seek such a Divine Origin for Jesus? I.e., him only and not some other charismatic messianic-type person? Why was it only this Jesus person who was so important in their view that he had to be made into this object of prophecy? Why was no one else chosen to be the Messiah? by these writers, or any writers?

Obviously the originators of the two stories did not know each other, suggesting that the legend-building from believers came from many different directions, unbeknownst to each other. How diverse were the various believers, all trying to explain this one special individual as THE Messiah, the only one, exclusive of any others? Couldn't some of these Messiah-seekers have found any other person to serve as this important Divine Figure? Why no one else but this one?

This is the important question. That these two Gospel accounts "contradict" each other or are difficult to harmonize is of a very petty nature by contrast.


The historical biographer Suetonius notes in his Life of Caligula (8.1-5) that there were different versions of the emperor’s birthplace . . .

. . . Suetonius acknowledges that there is a contradiction, but as a historical author he instead engages in a rigorous analysis of the various forms of evidence, ranging from the works of previous historians, to inscriptions, to personal letters, to public records, in order to get to the bottom of the discrepancy. He discusses his sources and methods to give context to the conclusions that he has reached.

Notice that this problem is addressed consciously within a narrative, rather than between narratives by two authors who give their own versions of events without any discussion of sources or method. Suetonius, as a historical author, is interpreting events based on evidence, rather than telling a story as religious propaganda.

But there were historical authors who did tell stories as propaganda, mostly nationalistic or patriotic, but also some religious. Josephus is an obvious case. So it's not true that the Gospels are unique in having a propaganda element as distinguished from the "historical" writings. You cannot draw this hard black-and-white line between the "historical" writings and others. Or shall we say Josephus was not really an "historical" writer? and likewise Herodotus? And yet how many other historians must we toss out of the "historical" category because they propagandized?


Furthermore, Suetonius’ account is far more plausible, as there would be little reason to invent Caligula’s birthplace in Antium, whereas both Matthew and Luke almost certainly invented Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem, although he . . .

Enough Bethlehem babble! Can we move on to something of substance?

As usual, obsessing on the Bethlehem story is the fallback for crusaders wanting to debunk the Gospels as "fiction" -- when all else fails, drag out Matthew-Luke virgin birth discrepancies -- that always works for scoring cheap superficial debunking points.

That Ferguson and other debunkers can't get beyond this obsession with Bethlehem and virgin births is an indicator of their inability to deal with substance. The real substance they refuse to deal with is this: Why did Matthew, Luke, and others want to make Jesus into the Messiah who had to be born in Bethlehem? I.e., why did they choose Jesus, and only him, to be this Messiah?

These birth stories might be fiction, but what was the real or factual part, or the real Jesus person in history, to whom this legend- or myth-making was added? and why was it added to him and not to anyone else? What made Jesus the unique recipient for this Bethlehem legend which could just as easily have been added to any popular hero figure with a messianic appeal and some followers?

Given all we have in the Gospel accounts, or all we have from any source, there is only one answer to this which makes any sense: The original Jesus was a reputed miracle-worker like no other, in 30 AD, causing the impact which led many Jews to make him the Messiah, and others to make him into a deity or Son of God or Prophet, etc. And there was no one else who did anything comparable, that could draw the attention of the Messiah-makers.

If he did not really perform those miracle acts, then what caused him alone to be credited with such acts and made into this deity or Messiah? If it was easy to "invent" such an instant miracle-worker, then why were no others invented, but this one only? There were others? Who? Where's the record of their reported miracle acts?


What was special about Jesus, if he did not do the miracle acts?

Until this question is answered, all the joking and smirking about a virgin birth and the massacre of the babies and the census and decree from Caesar Augustus and "The Three Wise Men" etc. is only further corroboration of the Jesus miracle acts which explain it all, and without which there is no Jesus Christ person anyone can identify as having any more claim to Messiah-hood than dozens of other prophets and teachers and charismatics who were common and seeking recognition and gaining some followers.

But if he actually did perform those miracle acts, then we have the explanation why the Gospel writers and so many others believed only he was the Messiah and they did not seek someone else for this role, or even think there was such a role to be filled. Answering this question is vastly more important than obsessing on a contradiction between Mt and Lk about how Jesus got born in Bethlehem, which might be fictional.

Why did so many writers make Jesus into the Messiah? That he did in fact perform those miracle acts answers this. And no other answer offered so far makes any sense.

All other proposed answers to this question, in this message board, have never explained how it is only this one Jesus person who became mythologized into a miracle-working virgin-born Messiah and no one else. It's easy to theorize that it could happen -- someone "made up shit" etc. -- but why did it happen only once? to only one historical person and no one else? Whatever worked for this one Jesus legend -- according to whatever theory -- why did it not also work for any other charismatic figure or prophet or rabbi or messiah-pretender?


The ways in which historical sources treat contradictions between traditions is very different from that of the Gospels, and we . . .

This is phony, as it's obvious that the "historical" writers themselves easily ignored thousands of contradictions -- far more than the Gospel writers -- in their own writings, or between their writings and that of other writers. When they addressed contradictions, it was the rare exception, not the rule.

There's no reason why we should expect the Gospel writers to get bogged down in treating contradictions, or that their avoidance of it makes them any less credible than the "historical" writers, who also avoided this generally, side-stepping it far more than ever discussing such a thing. Of course you can cite some untypical cases where they dealt with it -- while the Gospel writers did not -- but normally they avoided discussing any contradictions. It is extreme hair-splitting nonsense to insist that the Gospel writers should have included dissertations about contradictions, and that because they did not, their accounts lack credibility.

. . . and we can see clear methodology in the former category . . .

No we don't. We're given one rare case where a contradiction is discussed, and you'll have to rack your brain out finding 2 or 3 more examples. This comparison is phony -- if we demanded this from all writers in order for them to be credible, we'd have to toss out most sources for our accepted historical record.

. . . and uncritical, omniscient forms of narration in the latter.

No, the "uncritical, omniscient forms of narration" are typical of most of the ancient writers, including sources for history.

Ferguson forgot what his point is here. He was comparing how the Gospel writers treat contradictions to how the historical writers treat them, but when he concludes his point here he has forgotten the contradictions and just reverts back to his rhetorical talking-point about literary style differences, this time adding "omniscient forms of narration" to his list of buzz-words (or buzz phrases) to keep hammering away at -- bang-bang-banging, pound-pound-pounding away with the scholarly jargon words rather than dealing with the fact-vs.-fiction questions in the documents, i.e., the substance or the content, or the claims made and which part is fact and which part fiction.


. . . we can see clear methodology in the former . . . uncritical, omniscient forms of narration in the latter . . .

No, we see virtually no discussion of contradictions in either category of writings. And generally "uncritical, omniscient forms of narration" in virtually all kinds of writing, far more than any other kind of narration.

What we see in the former (historians) are elitist scholars, writing for the educated elite, authorized by the rich and famous to produce massive volumes to address the major events and activities of the politically-powerful who dominated millions and needed to be published for posterity.

While from the latter (Gospel writers) we see short unauthorized accounts, not for scholars and elitists, but for commoners, the 99%, and written by non-professionals who were focused on a particular event which stood out and they thought had to be presented effectively -- because of the uniqueness and importance of the event -- to a large reading audience, or even an illiterate audience to whom the accounts would be read orally. This does not call for long scholarly explanations about the sources and theories on separating the fact from the fiction, and reconciling the inconsistencies.


The ways in which historical sources treat contradictions between traditions is very different from that of the Gospels, and we can see clear methodology in the former category and uncritical, omniscient forms of narration in the latter.

Ferguson pretends he has compared these two kinds of writings and shown a difference in how the two treat contradictions. But he has shown nothing of how the Gospel writers treat contradictions, because obviously they don't treat them at all, in the only example he has given us of a contradiction in the Gospels -- i.e., the 2 birth stories.

And in fact virtually ALL the ancient writings are the same in this regard, in that they almost never deal with the numerous contradictions, but just ignore them. His example from Suetonius is untypical and rare in the ancient writings, and yet Ferguson pretends that this one exceptional case was the norm which the Gospel writers are obligated to copy, even though other ancient writers generally did not.

What makes Ferguson's criticism even more nutty is the fact that Matthew and Luke likely were unaware of the other's birth story. Just as the writer of the John Gospel was unaware of either the Matthew or Luke birth story, but believed Jesus originated from Galilee (John 7:40-42), probably also the Mt and Lk writers/editors knew nothing of any birth story alternative to their own. And so how does it make sense to demand that they must follow the example of Suetonius in doing a critical treatment of a contradiction they knew nothing about?


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
Last edited:
Lumpen,

Do you write these wall-of-text posts thinking that it would persuade other people to your point-of-view, or do you write them more to reinforce to yourself your own point-of-view? So if nobody responds to them line-by-line, you gain a little bit of confidence that you have the right view after all. If you are trying to persuade anybody to read, understand, and be persuaded by your arguments, you would have a much better chance of doing so if your presentation of those arguments was better organized.

If you have motivations to put people off and you want to be isolated, that sounds like more of a symptom of a psychological illness, so please have it checked out. Visit a doctor who can help you more.

Brian
 
We seem to know a lot of ancient history as for example the acceptance of the history of the Egyptians. If we are to wonder if not by the pharoahs own hand writing chiselling away, then who were the scribes?

Just using an excerpt from link below : (Not having that "wall of text" ability)

(Throughout the history of literature, since the creation of bound texts in the forms of books and codices, various works have been published and written anonymously, often due to their political or controversial nature, or merely for the purposes of the privacy of their authors, among other reasons. This article provides a list of literary works published anonymously, either attributed to "Anonymous", or with no specific author's name given.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_works
 
Do the Gospels belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily FICTION?

(continued from previous Wall of Text)


Here are some links on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

I.e., the categorizing flaw: anything in the "fictional" category has to be fiction because it is in that category or "genre" of literature. I.e., circular logic: It is fiction because we assign it to a fiction "genre" and then preach that it must be fiction because of its assignment to that "genre" vs. some other category.


There's no evidence in these links that the Jesus miracle stories are fictional. Rather, the methodology is to assign the Gospel accounts to a "genre" labeled as "fiction" (or "novelistic") and then declare "See, the Gospels must be fiction because they're in this fiction genre."


What "GENRE" of ancient literature do the Gospels really belong to?

• Any document of this "genre" relates historical events, reported as factual, which are placed into a historical time frame and into the events of that time, despite whether intermixed with fictional or religious or propaganda elements.

• The document was written near to the time of the events, not several centuries later.

• The document is short, by comparison to mainline historical writings, and focused on one special event or limited range of events rather than treating history broadly.

The above literature type, which the Gospel writings belong to, is ignored by Matthew Ferguson, throughout these links, while he instead places the Gospels artificially into some kind of "fiction" category, based on supposed similarities between them and the literature in that category; and then, because of this categorization we're supposed to designate them as fiction, on the rationale that they must be fiction because they're in that category, as decreed by established scholars with Authority to Bind and to Loose all literature types neatly into Ferguson's all-encompassing universal categorizing scheme.


The ways in which the Gospels diverge from and fall short of the historical writing of their time are perhaps too numerous to exhaustively treat here, but I will discuss ten relevant areas of distinction that are helpful for understanding how historical writing is different. . . .

3. Authorial Presence in the Narrative

Notice in the two examples above how both Dionysius [of Halicarnassus] and Suetonius have active roles in the narrative, as historians who are interjecting their own voice, in order to discuss their sources and relation to events.

But this is not the norm even for these 2 historians. The vast majority of their accounts do not contain any such interjection of their own voice. Such interjections are only a tiny fraction of their extensive writings, and, again, the Gospel accounts are not the kind of long voluminous dissertations intended for elitist scholars which need the explanatory discussion of sources. Such scholarly matter is not what even the "historical" writings are mainly about -- but rather, in this regard they are the same as the Gospel accounts for 99% of their content. The scholarly matter is inappropriate for shorter works intended for common people, and omission of it does not reflect against the credibility of the writing.


We learn details of how Dionysius traveled to Rome and learned Latin, and how Suetonius was acquainted with Augustus’ own letters. The Gospel authors are silent about their identities and give context about their relation neither to their sources nor to the events they contain. The Gospel narratives instead read like novelistic literature, . . .

Again the obsession with jargon like "novelistic" -- as though repeating this word and the word "novella" over and over somehow proves a scholarly point that the Gospels must be fiction. It tells us something that Ferguson seems unable to make his point without repeating the buzz-words "novella" and "novelistic" and "fiction" over and over, just for the sake of the impact from the words themselves, like the dog-whistle effect, without explaining the words or giving examples of them for comparison, but just the repeated buzz-words as signals telling us to submit to the authority of literature pundits who prescribe the literature categories to us.

We don't need such jargon to describe what the Gospel writings are. We can see it plainly, from considering the content straightforwardly.

What they really "read like" -- in contrast to the mainline historians -- are urgent reports/narrations plus interpretation of certain recent events the author thought were uniquely important, in short accounts which don't have the luxury of extra space for dissertations on the personal background of the writers/editors.

Instead of treating the Gospels accordingly, Ferguson imposes the standards only of the lengthy high-profile historians who wrote extensive volumes, demanding that anything with historical content must follow these standards in order to have credibility, ignoring other types to which a more legitimate comparison to the Gospels would be possible. Instead, voluminous historians like Tacitus etc. are the only comparison Ferguson offers.

For genuine comparison, allowance must be made for a category having history in it but not comprehensive, focusing in on a limited event or series of events, excluding most history or the overall historical scene for the sake of highlighting the limited events being focused on.

A "novella" might be legitimate for comparison, provided it presents a factual accounting of reported recent events, set within a factual historical setting, naming real historical figures. Such content could be judged as to the fact-vs-fiction element. And, if it's a mixture of fact and fiction, the parts must be considered separately, not disparaging the factual content just because there is also a fiction component.

Whether Ferguson is the scholar he claims to be is irrelevant -- he has to make the case beyond just insisting repeatedly that we submit to his prescribed "genres" or categories.


Can ALL literature be pigeon-holed into the "FICTIONAL" and "HISTORICAL" categories?

There are obviously cases which don't fit: Josephus who is "historical" really does NOT cite his sources, though he gives personal background information; I Macabbees is "historical" by most appearances and yet meets none of Ferguson's criteria, while II Macabbees does meet some of the criteria, naming the source, and yet is more "fictional" in content than I Macabbees; Cicero is non-fiction and historically critical, but not in the "historical" category, and also is highly propagandistic.

The list of exceptions and ambiguous examples is probably endless -- making Ferguson's list of criteria mostly pointless and probably not accommodating even 50% of all the literature, leaving out too many cases which do not neatly fall into one category or the other. His black-white dichotomy of "historical" vs "fiction" is mostly delusional and just a machination to force the Gospels into the lower-class category of literature to be disdained, which is his bottom line.

We should question any document as to the credibility of this or that part, but to condemn the whole document only because of the category someone puts it into, claiming it's an inferior category only to be sneered at for its substandard status, is not the approach of an objective scholar, but a crusader frustrated at what the real evidence shows and seeking a backdoor route to invalidate the evidence.

Ferguson does not show that ALL the ancient literature neatly falls into his prescribed categories. We don't have to submit to his authority on how the Gospels must be classified and how the categorizing configuration allows credibility to some literature and not others.

. . . told from a camera-like perspective, which omnisciently follows around the characters with minimal methodological analysis.

And yet that's what 98% of the text of the "historical" writing also does, including these two cited by Ferguson. They are no different except that they also have the luxury of devoting a few pages to the critical scholarship. But the other 98% or 99% of their text is the same as "novelistic literature told from a camera-like perspective, which omnisciently follows around the characters with minimal methodological analysis."

So the "historical" writings really do the same, and Ferguson's black-and-white dichotomy is artificial. The only difference is superficial -- the "historical" writings are dozens of volumes in length and devote a small fraction of this extra space to the "critical" approach or "methodological analysis" which the Gospel writers don't have space for. This does not make the latter a less credible inferior source.


This third person style of narration further casts doubt on whether the Gospels’ authors are relating eyewitness experiences.

No, none of the writers, including the historical writers, are relating their own eyewitness experiences. All are relying on sources going back to earlier events 50 or 100 years before they lived, with only rare exceptions (Thucydides etc.)

And, most of the "historical" writers also used the "third person" style most (99%) of the time, like the Gospel writers, which does not make the accounts less credible.


A major characteristic of historical prose, however, is that the role of author and narrator are (generally speaking) the same, which means that ancient historians frequently interject their own voice into the narrative using the first person.

"frequently"? It's extremely rare. In 100 pages, maybe it happens a couple times, or one whole page is devoted to this. But the Gospel writers put their content into a much shorter account and didn't have space for this.

And the historian's voice is not "frequently" interjected, but rather, such background matter is reserved for special sections usually separated from the narrative.

For 98% of their text, the author is absent and only the narrator is present (or 99% or 97% -- the exact percent is not the point), as with the Gospel accounts. There was no reason for the Gospel writers to include the author's background in their short accounts.


Even among ancient historical works in which the author does not specifically give his name within the narrative, historians very frequently discuss their relation to the events that they are analyzing.

But this is not normally part of the narrative in the historical accounts. It is a rare feature, usually added in special sections which are separate from the narrative. You normally can go on for many pages without encountering any such analyzing by the writers.

There is no necessity for the writers to include such analysis in order for their account to be complete and credible. So the mainline elitist historians do include such analysis at some point in most of their writings, but this is only an option, not a requirement for a document to be reliable.

There are plenty of credibility questions, possibly a greater-than-average number of them with the Gospel accounts. But the absence of an analytical discussion about the author's relation to the events is irrelevant to resolving the credibility problems. Rather, one must analyze each case of something doubtful in the text, without prejudging the whole text as less credible simply because it doesn't analyze the author's relation to the events, or because it belongs to this or that category or is not from the officially-recognized historians.

You can't simplistically dismiss a document because the source of it is in a less-established or lower-class or less-elitist category.

. . . the historian Tacitus (1.1) describes his career and relationship to the persons and events he is documenting:

I myself was not acquainted with Galba, Otho, or Vitellius, either by profit or injury. I would not deny that my rank was first elevated by Vespasian, then raised by Titus, and still further increased by Domitian; but to those who profess unaltered truth, it is requisite to speak neither with partisanship nor prejudice.

Here, Tacitus discusses, out of the individuals that he is writing about, which ones he knew and which one he was more distanced from. He clearly explains his role during the time period and his relation to the events within it, so that the narrator’s identity and background are clearly understood with regard to the events that he is investigating. This is a hallmark of history as a genre, which is an investigation in the present of past events, rather than a mere story set in the past.

This is the best example Ferguson can offer? How does the above quote do anything to increase the historian's credibility? If we doubt his credibility for the events, we can just as easily doubt his credibility about his personal background. If this is a typical quote showing the author's connection to his subject matter, it's a good illustration of why most writers did not include such text, as it is mostly unnecessary and a waste of valuable space. It's surprising that Ferguson uses this particular quote to make his point.

The Gospel writers obviously did not devote their limited resources to including such personal information about themselves, but focused on presenting the Jesus events which they thought were of singular importance and not to be distracted from by inserting unnecessary personal information about themselves.

If this Tacitus quote is supposed to illustrate the difference between a historical account and the Gospel accounts, the difference is this: the Gospel writers had a very specific and urgent episode to relate, while the mainline historians provided an overview of general events, incorporating their personal observation point as part of this overview, even to the point of being partly autobiographical. That the Gospel accounts are not providing such an overview from a personal perspective does not make them inferior as a credible source for the events.

So, for comparison to the Gospels, we need a different category of literature than the standard "historical" writings -- something much shorter in length, but including some historical events. And this category is not necessarily less credible simply because it doesn't follow the conventions for "historical" writers.

So we need a "genre" of writing which presents a recent historical event, or limited sequence of events, placed into the standard historical record, in a short work, a "novella" or whatever you want to call it, which might also contain fictional or propaganda content. And this category of literature is not to be judged by the standards appropriate to some different category, like the mainline "historical" writings, which are vastly longer and are not necessarily more credible simply because they follow certain more elaborate standards. Those standards are OK for such voluminous writings, but not appropriate to most other categories, like the less officially-established "genre" which the Gospels belong to.

Within this "genre" there might be fictional elements, but this is determined in each case by examining whatever is presented as historical fact and considering the credibility of it irrespective of the literature "genre" it belongs to, which does not determine the fact-vs.-fiction status of the literature. If some part is dubious and cannot be resolved, then it remains unresolved. The uncertainty of it is not resolved by imposing a standard not appropriate to that genre and judging it defective for not conforming to that alien standard.


"hallmark of history as a genre"? Whazat?

Are the "higher standards" of Thucydides etc. really necessary for credibility?

Even a lengthy "historical" document is not substandard simply because it fails to conform to all the conventions usually followed by that genre of literature. The personal information on the author, the critical analysis, etc., are an added feature which may or may not be an improvement to the document. Even if it's usually an improvement, probably in some cases it's not, because it's a distraction or only adds confusion, and there's virtually no case where such a document should be rejected as a legitimate history source simply because it lacks those features. There are far more important criteria for judging the credibility than whether it contains such features or follows the standard conventions.

And reader's personal preference also matters: Some readers want explanations like the author's background while other readers don't want it. It's not true that a reader absolutely must have such information in order to learn the facts. Some authors definitely do it too much and would serve the reader by cutting it in half.

We don't necessarily need a "Get to know me" author's intro in order to understand the basic message or essential content of the writing. Our subjective "feelings" about the author, knowing "where he's coming from" or "what makes him tick" is not necessarily part of the facts we need. And it should be obvious that the Gospel writings especially are not the kind intended to present the author's feelings or persona to us, but rather to direct us to awareness of the Christ person, known by means of a certain event in history, or events, to which our attention is directed with minimum distraction.


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We seem to know a lot of ancient history as for example the acceptance of the history of the Egyptians. If we are to wonder if not by the pharoahs own hand writing chiselling away, then who were the scribes?
Lumpy's oft-asserted stance is that anonymous accounts of history are taken at face value, UNLESS it's the Bible. THen suddenly historians are all skeptical and dismissive.

This persecution complex kind of stunts his understanding of how historians actually weight accounts.
 
We seem to know a lot of ancient history as for example the acceptance of the history of the Egyptians. If we are to wonder if not by the pharoahs own hand writing chiselling away, then who were the scribes?
Lumpy's oft-asserted stance is that anonymous accounts of history are taken at face value, UNLESS it's the Bible. THen suddenly historians are all skeptical and dismissive.

This persecution complex kind of stunts his understanding of how historians actually weight accounts.
Yep!

Learner, I don’t think anyone here has argued that because the Gospels are anonymous they are false. As it has been repeated to Lumpy ad nauseam, it is just one factor of consideration. Quoting myself from a part of one reply to the never ending straw warriors he barfs out:

Humanity generally accept much of what is historical upon vague information, but not miracles and gods. It doesn’t matter whether King Egbert of Wessex drove Wiglaf, the king of Mercia, into exile or if the Vikings killed Wiglaf. But one of those options is far more likely than the other. I know George Washington existed and I accept much of the history about him. Yet I don’t buy the cherry tree or wooden teeth myths. People regularly set aside the BS injected into history, even if we don’t always know when made up shit gets thru simply because it reasonably could be true.

Historians and many people understand that historical information is fragile and fraught with potential errors, especially within the details. You provide a great example by the Wiki listing of anonymous texts. Historians most certainly do use anonymous Egyptian texts in trying to reconstruct the real history of their society over the centuries. Within your list is the Book of the Dead. Now do you think that historians consider the upon death, souls are taken to the presence of the god Osiris to be judged? Is that what historians accept from such ancient writings? Or do they study such texts, balanced against other texts and archeology to help them form general opinions about Egyptian society, beliefs, and values?
 
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Do the Gospels and Jesus miracles belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily FICTION?

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Here are some links on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

I.e., the categorizing flaw: anything in the "fictional" category has to be fiction because it is in that category or "genre" of literature. I.e., circular logic: It is fiction because we assign it to a fiction "genre" and then preach that it must be fiction because of its assignment to that "genre" vs. some other category.


There's no evidence in these links that the Jesus miracle stories are fictional. Rather, the methodology is to assign the Gospel accounts to a "genre" labeled as "fiction" (or "novelistic") and then declare "See, the Gospels must be fiction because they're in this fiction genre."


What "GENRE" of ancient literature do the Gospels really belong to?

• Any document of this "genre" relates historical events, reported as factual, which are placed into a historical time frame and into the events of that time, despite whether intermixed with fictional or religious or propaganda elements.

• The document was written near to the time of the events, not several centuries later.

• The document is short, by comparison to mainline historical writings, and focused on one special event or limited range of events rather than treating history broadly.

The above literature type, which the Gospel writings belong to, is ignored by Matthew Ferguson, throughout these links, while he instead places the Gospels artificially into some kind of "fiction" category, based on supposed similarities between them and the literature in that category; and then, because of this categorization we're supposed to designate them as fiction, on the rationale that they must be because they're in that category, as decreed by established scholars with Authority to Bind and to Loose all literature types neatly into Ferguson's all-encompassing universal categorizing scheme.


The ways in which the Gospels diverge from and fall short of the historical writing of their time are perhaps too numerous to exhaustively treat here, but I will discuss ten relevant areas of distinction that are helpful for understanding how historical writing is different. . . .

4. Education Level of the Audience

While a high school-level education in history is universally taught to inhabitants of modern Western nations (still not as well as I would like), historical writing was very exclusive in antiquity.

That's the point -- the Gospels were not written by elitists for an elitist group and about the events of only the top elite rich and powerful and famous, which the established historians served. They were written for commoners (readers or audiences to be read to), and were written about persons below the top 1% of society, and especially focused on one historical figure who must have been distinguished and yet was not a worldwide famous or powerful celebrity during his time.

So the Gospels differ from the historical writings, but not in a sense which makes them less credible. No one is showing any feature of these accounts which makes them less credible than other sources.


In order to fully evaluate and appreciate historical prose, one had to be educated, literate, trained in oratory, and skilled at critical thinking. Authors writing to such an audience had to demonstrate their research ability, credentials, and methodology. As scholar Pheme Perkins (Oxford Annotated Bible, pg. 1743) explains, “Greco-Roman biographies were addressed to a social and literary elite, which may explain why the Gospels, addressed to a much broader audience, do not match them very closely.”

But this does not make the Gospel writings less credible. Not being in the "historical" or "biographical" category does not automatically undermine the credibility of a source. The whole document cannot be simplistically branded as less credible. Rather, individual parts may be judged on their credibility, as with any source.


The Gospels, in contrast, are written for a far less educated and critical audience. Far from the refined prose of Greek historical writing, the Gospels are written in a low language register in the Koine dialect. For anyone who reads ancient Greek, the difference in quality between a historian like Thucydides versus the authors of the Gospels is on par with comparing an elevated English work like Shakespeare’s Hamlet to a far simpler text like J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Hobbit.

Instead of addressing the credibility of the Gospels, this is only a snobbish insult to the commoners and those writing to them, disparaging them as incapable of making critical judgments. A mere put-down of the readers and writers of the documents is not an argument to show a lower level of credibility or higher degree of fiction in the documents. You have to deal with the content of the documents rather than just demeaning the readers and writers of them as being inferior or lower-class.


Historical writing was simply far more complex and rhetorically polished . . .

But this can be a negative element, causing more confusion, emphasizing symbol over substance. Something simple and straight to the point often communicates better than polished rhetoric, and might also state the facts more clearly.

. . . (as well as much more critical and analytical), . . .

By "critical and analytical" Ferguson means the diversions into the author's background and the surveying of different sources and their reliability -- which some readers do not need and which might clutter up the document, making it unnecessarily longer. For shorter and less extravagant writings, the author's background and "critical analysis" and discussion of sources would only detract from the specific information the document is presenting and which is the only purpose of the document.

. . . whereas the Gospels read as basic stories, . . .

The phrase "read as" is Ferguson's classifying rhetoric, by which he puts the Gospels into a category ("stories") and then insists that because this is their classification they are to be dismissed as "fiction" and as having no credibility. He repeatedly falls back on this categorizing logic, dismissing the Gospels as being in this inferior genre for the inferior masses who only understand fiction tales, which is what the Gospels must be because they are in this category.

. . . which were taught to encourage the faith of people who probably already believed and trusted in Christianity.

This specifically faults the motivation for writing and teaching the content: a document is condemned as not credible because of flawed motives of those teaching it or writing it. But how is the content less credible because of the psychological motives of those who taught it or wrote it? Does this say anything about whether the written matter is credible? What if the written matter is true, or mostly true, and then it is taught "to encourage the faith" etc. -- how does this teaching "to encourage the faith" etc. suddenly turn it into fiction?

You mean if Darwin's Origin of Species is taught in order to encourage science or some other purpose, that turns the book into fiction instead of science? Whether it's true or not depends on whether it's taught for some purpose?

Suppose some Nazis cite Darwin's "Natural Selection" writings in order to promote their belief that one race is superior to another -- does that then make Darwin fiction instead of fact?

The motivation of those teaching it or writing it can be relevant in some ways, e.g., trying to explain how the stories got circulated or became popular, but this in no way addresses the credibility of the accounts or of the subject matter being taught. You have to address the content per se of the accounts, the claims being made, and how many sources or witnesses there were, etc., without impugning their motivation as some kind of evidence to disprove the claims or undermine their credibility.

The motivation of the one believing it or teaching it or learning it does not address the fact-vs.-fiction questions about the content. Different readers or teachers of the literature might have differing motives or differing psychological impulses driving them, or different schools of thought might use the same writings in order to go in opposite directions. Where they intend to go with it or what they are crusading for does not address the question of what the documents say and their credibility.

If you're having trouble deciding whether to believe the written content, you don't resolve this by trying to psycho-analyze those who believe it or teach it. You have to address the written matter directly, and if this is difficult, you might have to leave it unresolved. You don't resolve it by pretending to psycho-analyze those teaching it or reading it or promoting the literature.


5. Hagiography versus Biography

Rather than read as the unmitigated praise of a saint who can do no wrong, ancient historical works and historical biographies were far more critical of their subjects, whom they analyzed less one-dimensionally and more as complete persons.

By contrast to this, the Gospel writers almost certainly did not have "complete" information about Jesus which they could offer. Ferguson's only legitimate point here might be that the Gospel writers should have MADE UP SOMETHING FICTIONAL to supplement their Jesus figure into a more "complete" person. That they did not, but left him incomplete, is an attestation to their honesty and thus higher credibility. So here Ferguson is giving us just one more reason to believe the Gospel accounts, even though here he is faulting them for not adding fictional elements to Jesus to make him a more "complete" person.

How can you condemn them as "fiction" on the one hand, but on the other hand demand that they invent fictional traits for Jesus to make him a more "complete" person, as Ferguson is demanding here?


Even for a popular and well-liked emperor like Augustus, his biographer Suetonius in his Life of Augustus still did not hold back from describing Augustus’ acts of adultery and lavish behavior. Good historians are concerned with telling the past as it really is rather than just heaping praise upon individuals as propaganda.

This probably eliminates 90% of our mainline historians as not in the "good historian" category. How much historical record would be left standing after all but the "good" historians (who did not propagandize) have been eliminated?


The Gospels, in contrast, are not historical biographies but can be . . .

Of course they're not biographies, as well as not in the "historical writing" category. But that doesn't make them non-historical fiction or lacking credibility. They contain legitimate "historical" content, but are not in the rigid "historical" category. Find a proper "genre" or category to put them into --- stop trying to judge them by standards for a category they don't belong to.

. . . but can be more aptly described as “hagiographies,” written in unquestioning praise of their messianic subject.

How do we know they were unquestioning? What didn't they question which they should have questioned? To accuse them of "unquestioning praise" presumes there was some dirt on Jesus which they covered up, or refused to inquire about. How do we know this? What facts require us to put these writings into such a category?

What we can say for sure is that the later writers/editors (e.g., 60 or 70 or 80 AD) had very limited information on him. So, how do we know that's not the reason why they give us only a positive picture of him, and no negative part? i.e., that all their sources were only positive? It's not because they were "unquestioning" but because they reported what they had from their sources, which happened to all be positive. They could QUESTION all they wanted -- but where there are no answers, what are they supposed to do? invent something fictional? contrive something scandalous to make the story more sexy?


A genuine scholar simply admits that we don't know.

Our scholar, as it were, is supposed to be telling us how we know the Gospels are fiction, based on his expertise. But instead he just begins with his dogmatic premise that they are fiction, and from this he pretends to psycho-analyze the writers, as though his scholarly background is that of explaining what must be wrong with writers who say things contrary to his dogmatic premise -- like a geocentric astronomer explaining what the laws of the sun & planets must be if we assume the earth to be the center rather than the sun. They did come up with such laws -- it's always possible somehow to plug in your dogmatic premise first, and then take the facts that show differently and twist them around somehow to make them fit the dogma you're trying to superimpose onto reality.

Having so few facts to go on, due to the overall lack of sources on the details of what happened in 30 AD, wouldn't it be more scholarly to just say we don't know? rather than sneer at those who wrote the only evidence we have, with this put-down language driven by the dogmatic premise that those reported events have to be fiction?

What is scholarly about impugning someone's motives and suggesting something fraudulent and dishonest without any evidence? i.e., any evidence other than their writings which say something disallowed by the scholar's dogmatic premise? Obviously there is a dogmatic premise at work here: There cannot ever be any miracle events, period, regardless of any evidence -- so if there is evidence, as in this case, it has to be tainted somehow, the writers must be "unquestioning" fanatics who can't think critically -- we have to invent some scenario to explain away this evidence of something which goes contrary to the accepted ideological premise being superimposed.

An honest scholar would only say we don't know why the accounts don't give any negative side of Jesus. I.e., he would simply recognize a case of high uncertainty and limited sources. He wouldn't "make up" his own shit in order to promote his ideology. He wouldn't denigrate those early writers as "unquestioning" crusader fanatics when there's no evidence of it -- or, even worse, insinuate that they should have invented some shit of their own in order to make their account more politically-correct (more "complete" or less "hagiographical").


Although the genre of Christian Lives of Saints developed after the Gospels, they can still be regarded as hagiographical in that they function as laudatory biographies, praising the subject, rather than as critical biographies.

No, they are not "biographies" -- they are limited to the events of a 3-year period or less, which excludes them from the "biography" category. And whether they "praise" the subject is irrelevant unless you deal with the question WHY they "praise" him. If you refuse to address that, you cannot pretend to analyze them as being in the "praising" category, nor can you put them into some "fiction" category just because they are not in the mainline historical "critical" category.

You have to get serious and put them in their proper category: They are writings which report specific events to be added to the standard known historical events, whether they contain some fiction or not, or propaganda, and they were written near to the time of the reported events. So if you want to compare them to something else, find something else in that same category to compare them to -- stop insisting there's something wrong with them because they don't fit the pattern of some different category you pretend they must follow as a model.


As a good representation of the scholarly consensus about the rhetorical aims of the Gospels, the Oxford Annotated Bible (pg. 1744) explains, “Neither the evangelists nor their first readers engaged in historical analysis.

But who did engage in historical analysis, by comparison? Hardly anyone other than the scholars and elitists. What's wrong with having written accounts not from the elitist class who did "historical analysis"? Were the ordinary people -- the 99%, non-elitists/non-scholars -- incapable of knowing anything or having an intelligent thought because they were not engaged in "historical analysis"?

Is this saying we cannot believe anything these simpletons said, because they were inferior? intellectually defective? Obviously they did not study Polybius and Dionysius of Halicarnassus etc., so does this mean their testimony to anything happening has to be of an inferior nature, not fit to be considered seriously but only scoffed at due to the low-class status of these rabble who didn't engage "in historical analysis"?

How do we know based only on fact, not on prejudice, that these commoners -- both the readers and writers -- did not have some legitimate information on the Jesus events which included the miracle stories? We have nothing -- except snobbery and prejudice and the dogmatic premise that no miracle events can ever happen, and disregard of the actual evidence we have from the existing documents, attesting that these events did happen. What reason is given to dismiss this evidence? Only that it's low-class and intended for the 99% who don't do the "historical analysis" of the scholars and .1% educated elite.

The whole argument here is based only on a put-down of the writers and readers of these documents, and nothing else -- only on the premise that what they wrote has to be fiction, regardless of the facts -- i.e., circular reasoning. Essential to Ferguson's point is the dogmatic premise that the stories must be fiction, from which he then explains away the evidence by denigrating the readers and writers of this written evidence, which is dismissed as not credible because of the low-class inferior status of these readers and writers as proved by their acceptance of this evidence. And around in circles goes the reasoning -- we can't believe it because it comes from these low-class rabble, and we know they're low-class rabble because they believe such low-class shit as this.


Their aim was to confirm Christian faith.”

So the "aim" of the evangelists and the readers is evidence that their beliefs and the accounts are not credible? You presume to know their motives -- which we don't, as there were divergent factors driving these writers and readers and believers -- and then conclude from this presumption that everything they wrote must be fiction. You could condemn a scientist who wants to promote his theory, saying his claims must be false because his "aim" is to confirm his theory. And so that "aim" makes it all false, all fiction, because his state of mind somehow rules out the facts he is claiming? So any scientist who wants to confirm his theory must be promoting fiction?

Again, it's not that we can never consider the "aims" and the attitude of the believers in order to answer some questions -- this has a place, but not as a weapon to bash the beliefs. Their mindset does not automatically falsify or disprove the beliefs. You cannot psycho-analyze away the claims being made. Your theories about what's going on in their mind do not cancel out the evidence.

If you have real evidence that their belief is false, you can follow that up by theorizing why they believe it even though it's false. But you must have that evidence first. Once you can really dispel the beliefs, then it's appropriate to deal with the phenomenon of people having the false beliefs, which needs explaining. But you cannot begin with the premise that their belief has to be fiction, and then use this to prove what idiots they are, and from this disprove their belief because only idiots could believe such a thing.


Such works, written for an audience of converts, . . .

Oh, so because it's written for a certain audience you disapprove of, that disproves the claims made in the writings? This particular audience is a lower-class category of persons, or inferior, and thus anything addressed to them has to be fiction? That's how we decide what the truth is? by the higher- or lower-class status of the audience the claims are addressed to?

. . . are not chiefly concerned with being critical or investigative, but . . .

"chiefly"? But who was "chiefly" critical and investigative? only those you agree with? only those who read Tacitus and Suetonius? only the educated 1% elite? only those who had a doctorate?

Who says the Gospel writers/editors didn't try to be critical or investigative? That's a PREMISE, not a conclusion based on any evidence. Their being critical and investigative could very well be what originally drove them, and brought them to the conclusion that the Jesus miracle acts really did happen, and so they became believers and began promoting this "good news" they came upon as a result of their critical investigation. There's no evidence otherwise -- no evidence that this isn't what happened. We have every reason to believe they were just as critical and investigative as anyone else, and that they became believers, and thus partisan, AFTER their critical investigation.

Just because one doesn't like some of the content they wrote does not prove they had no concern to be critical or investigative. We're entitled to seek some flaw or error in their content, but we can't condemn them as charlatans based on a premise that their content must be fraudulent because we don't like it. We have to first find a real flaw in the content based on something other than our premise that it has to be fraudulent because we don't like it.

Lacking that, we can only say we don't know.

There is nothing to indicate that their belief in Christ's power was not a result of their being critical and investigative and arriving at that conclusion -- except the premise that miracle events cannot possibly happen, despite any evidence. Except for that premise there is nothing to rule out the possibility that they were concerned with being critical and investigative, and that this made believers of them and led them to publish their writings about the unusual events. It's a logical sequence, or reasonable explanation of what happened -- unusual events led to the publishing of unusual writings containing unusual content.

. . . but rather serve the religious agendas and ideologies of the communities that produced them.

So the goal served by spreading the beliefs makes the beliefs false?

This is all circular retro-active backlashing against the Gospel writers for their belief AFTER they formed their interpretation and began promoting the "good news" they discovered -- refusing to consider what first happened to bring them to their belief.

This circular logic does not look at the evidence for the claims and then question whether they are true or false, but only psycho-analyzes the believers -- the writers and their readers -- who are presumed as defective for holding such beliefs, which must be fiction because of the low-class defective status of the believers, who must be low-class and defective because only inferior simpletons believe such fiction stories.


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Lumpenproletariat, do you know what "wall of text" means?

It's a wall, so it's a barrier. It's not synonymous with "long post". What it means is "I'm trying to overwhelm your ability to address all this".

And no matter what the intent, writing walls of text is bad writing. If you honestly want a dialogue of ideas, you must try to be succinct with your points.
 
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Lumpenproletariat, do you know what "wall of text" means?

It's a wall, so it's a barrier. It's not synonymous with "long post". What it means is "I'm trying to overwhelm your ability to address all this".

And no matter what the intent, writing walls of text is bad writing. If you honestly want a dialogue of ideas, you must try to be succinct with your points.
Considering this point was made almost 3 years ago (1-1-2015), I suspect even Lumpy comprehends the point.
Also, please consider that brevity is a virtue. When you write a huge wall of text, you should suspect yourself merely trying to bury your lack of an argument under an abundance of words. Even apart from that it's damn hard to quote and process your long posts in replies.

Later he even made a decent joke about it (4-20-2016). Of course the joke putrefied a long time ago, and since has had time to petrify…
Lumpy,
I was wondering if instead of the Wall Of Text responses to any and all criticism, you might make things easier for all of us by going with a buzzfeed format?

12 Reasons To Accept The Historicity of Jesus
(Number 9 will shock you!)


Or maybe

Atheists Hate This Historian!
He found actual photos of Jesus!

No, I'm going to build a WALL of text and make you pay for it!
 
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(this Wall of Text to be continued)
Lumpenproletariat, do you know what "wall of text" means?

It's a wall, so it's a barrier. It's not synonymous with "long post". What it means is "I'm trying to overwhelm your ability to address all this".

And no matter what the intent, writing walls of text is bad writing. If you honestly want a dialogue of ideas, you must try to be succinct with your points.

TL;DR

Keep it brief.
 
Considering this point was made almost 3 years ago (1-1-2015), I suspect even Lumpy comprehends the point.

....

Later he even made a decent joke about it (4-20-2016). Of course the joke putrefied a long time ago, and since has had time to petrify…
No, I'm going to build a WALL of text and make you pay for it!
Then he only walls himself in and wastes his life on some blinkered OCD bullshit.

- - - Updated - - -

TL;DR

Keep it brief.
QFT
 
Do the Gospels belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily FICTION?

(continued from previous Wall of Text, which is a response to the below series of TEXT WALLS linked into this message board by Ipetrich, to whom all crybabies who hate WALLS OF TEXT should address their protests, unless someone knows a way to answer a Wall of Text without a similar Wall of Text, or unless someone thinks Ipetrich is a fool not worth responding to, in which case also he is the one to whom such complainers should address their whining about what a fool they think he is for linking these Walls of Text and thus provoking similar Walls of Text in response.)

Here are some links [Walls of Text] on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

I.e., the categorizing flaw: anything in the "fictional" category has to be fiction because it is in that category or "genre" of literature. I.e., circular logic: It is fiction because we assign it to a fiction "genre" and then preach that it must be fiction because of its assignment to that "genre" vs. some other category.



There's no evidence in these links that the Jesus miracle stories are fictional. Rather, the methodology is to assign the Gospel accounts to a "genre" labeled as "fiction" (or "novelistic") and then declare "See, the Gospels must be fiction because they're in this fiction genre."


What "GENRE" of ancient literature do the Gospels really belong to?

• Any document of this "genre" relates historical events, reported as factual, which are placed into a historical time frame and into the events of that time, despite whether intermixed with fictional or religious or propaganda elements.

• The document was written near to the time of the events, not several centuries later.

• The document is short, by comparison to mainline historical writings, and focused on one special event or limited range of events rather than treating history broadly.

The above literature type, which the Gospel writings belong to, is ignored by Matthew Ferguson, throughout these links, while he instead places the Gospels artificially into some "fiction" category based on supposed similarities between them and the literature in that category; and from this we're supposed to designate the Gospels as fiction, on the rationale that they must be because they're in that category, as decreed by the established scholars.


The ways in which the Gospels diverge from and fall short of the historical writing of their time are perhaps too numerous to exhaustively treat here, but I will discuss ten relevant areas of distinction that are helpful for understanding how historical writing is different. . . .

6. Signposts about Authorial Speculation

Even when they dutifully followed the sources available, ancient historians frequently did not know the exact words spoken by individuals in famous speeches or the exact order in which things had taken place in past events. In order to provide elegant rhetorical prose, however, creative liberties had to be taken on the part of the author to retell these dialogues as they plausibly could have taken place. This does not entail direct lying on the part of the author, since the speeches were written to represent plausible versions of the original and historians would often signal that the words were approximate. The historian Thucydides, for examples, prefaces in his History of the Peloponnesian War (1.22):

Now, as much as particular persons gave speeches, either entering the war, or when it was already taking place, it has been difficult for me to remember precisely the exact words that were spoken, either from those that I heard myself, or from those that I was informed of by others. And so, my practice has been to make each speaker say what I regard as . . . etc. . . .

Beyond overt methodological statements like this, there are other constructions that historians could use to signpost authorial speculation, using phrases such as δοκεῖ μοι (“it seems to me”), . . .

Some historians used it and others did not. Why should a writer unnecessarily inject himself personally into the text? Those who generally avoided such language, including the Gospel writers, are not therefore less credible. And it's ludicrous to suggest that they were remiss to not use such language, or that their credibility is suspect because they did not.

Writers generally avoided it, not just the Gospel writers. The latter had good reason not to use such language, as their whole purpose was to draw the reader's attention to Jesus Christ as the central figure of the narrative, and to the "Good News" which was urgent and not to be distracted from.

. . . as well as constructions that employ paraphrase, such as ἔλεγε τοιάδε (“he spoke words like these”).

Just because Thucydides used this frequently doesn't make it a rule that all honest historians or writers must follow. Even though there's a slight nuance of difference in meaning, a phrase like this is more stylistic than literally meaningful. Herodotus seldom uses it (maybe never), but that doesn't make him less credible. There's nothing wrong with just ἔλεγε ("he said"), nothing making it less honest. The additional τοιάδε makes it more of a sophisticated stylistic phrase, to impress the more highly-educated or upper class, which is OK, but that doesn't make it a requirement for credibility.


We have no such honesty and signposts in the Gospels.

Cut it out. This is just snobbery against the possibly less-educated non-historians, below the .1% elite class -- nothing to do with honesty or credibility. It's not only the Gospels but many or most of the ancient authors being slandered here by Ferguson.

Philo the Alexandrian did not use such language -- so does that mean he's a liar, as Ferguson implies when he accuses any author not using ἔλεγε τοιάδε of being dishonest?

Philo was a non-historian, educated but probably not in the top .1% educated elite, or in the class of established historians. He doesn't use such language, or signposts, but he is just as reliable for historical information as the mainline historians. This is certainly the case for most of the authors upon whom we depend for historical information, even if the most elitist historians did use ἔλεγε τοιάδε (“he spoke words like these”) -- although Ferguson doesn't show that all of them did.

At most there might be a slight psychological difference between the sophisticated writer using ἔλεγε τοιάδε and the one writing simply ἔλεγε -- which is that the latter is speaking more emphatically, with a higher sense of urgency and desire to make an impact on the reader. So he wants to plant the words firmly into the reader's mind, with no ambiguity, to communicate the main point or urgent message. Whereas the more polished ἔλεγε τοιάδε writer is less emphatic and more conjectural, less devoted to promoting a particular message while more artistic in writing or communication style.


The SIGNPOST language does not mean higher credibility or honesty.

Philo's most historical work, In Flaccum, which contains none of this "signpost" language, is somewhat polemical, slanted rather than straightforward history, and yet that doesn't make it dishonest or fictional. There's no reason to disbelieve his account as mainly factual, despite being partisan.

It might even be in a similar category with the Gospels, focusing in one one special event, covering a short time period, and promoting a partisan message. The so-called "signpost" language would have been a cumbersome distraction from the message and inappropriate for communicating Philo's complaints against anti-Jewish persecutions in Alexandria.

The use of the "signpost" language has nothing to do with the actual credibility of the written content, i.e., whether it's more factual. The less sophisticated Gospel writer might actually be MORE credible, because IF his content is factual -- i.e., the events really did happen -- then that explains the higher sense of urgency and strong conviction that the message must get out, with no ambiguity. This explains what motivated the Gospel writers to report the events which they thought needed to be made known.

Obviously they were not neutral "ho-hum" observers reporting the latest gossip or happenings. They wrote with urgency, to report something unique or noteworthy and necessary to put out to the world or to make people aware of.

So they never wrote ἔλεγε τοιάδε or δοκεῖ μοι, but wrote unambiguously so readers would pay attention.

Even if the "signpost" language is appropriate in some cases, that doesn't make it a requirement for a document to be historically accurate or credible. If the author is trying to be concise and report an urgent message, such ambiguous language is probably out of place. More emphatic language is often more appropriate.


The Gospels are not even written in the same Aramaic that Jesus spoke.

But there probably were early Aramaic versions of the Gospels, or parts of them. It's not certain that the first versions were in Greek, despite the standard view of most scholars. It's possible some parts of them were originally in Aramaic and were then translated into Greek. Here's one crusader for Aramaic origins of the New Testament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nISjdraA5c . And there are many more. Some of them might be eccentric, but most of them are Hebrew-Aramaic scholars well-versed in all the ancient Hebrew literature, plus quite knowledgeable in the Greek Gospel accounts.

There is evidence that some early Aramaic versions did exist, and it could easily be explained how they did not survive, not being copied repeatedly or as much as the Greek manuscripts were. Suppose there were such Aramaic originals -- it's quite likely these were from EARLY believers who anticipated the return of Jesus and the end of the world happening at that time. They would have little thought of preserving the documents for the future, so very few copies were made.

The Diatessaron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaron was produced by about 170 AD and likely contains parts taken from earlier Syriac (Aramaic) versions, perhaps even from the 1st century. This "Gospel" version has only minor differences from the standard four Greek Gospel accounts with no significant loss in substance, regardless whether the very first accounts were written in Greek or in Aramaic.


The authors of Matthew and Luke may have had the diligence to copy certain sayings from an earlier Q source – a hypothetical collection of sayings reconstructed by modern scholars – but even then they do not signal that they are obtaining this material from an earlier source nor do they specify how this source would be trustworthy.

Why should they? Most ancient writers did not do this. Even for the historians generally it was not a high priority to name sources or defend them as trustworthy, and only a tiny percent of their writing is devoted to this. The few cases where historians did this do not set any standard we must expect writers to conform to as a condition for credibility. The norm was not to signal earlier sources or discuss the trustworthiness, and there's no reason to expect the Gospel writers to depart from that norm.


Furthermore, the Gospels predominantly employ direct speech, where they script dialogue verbatim, rather than indirect speech, which was more frequently used by ancient historians to signal when they did not know the exact words of their subjects.

And yet the historians used "direct speech" much more than "indirect speech" -- and they probably never knew "the exact words" even when they used "direct speech" in the text. The historians mostly used "direct speech" just as the Gospel writers did. Nitpicking the distinction between "direct" and "indirect" speech is totally pointless.

Herodotus uses "direct speech" again and again, in cases where he clearly did not know the exact words. So is his history less credible? He goes in the "fiction" category? Maybe some of it is conjecture on his part, and paraphrasing, but this doesn't make it fiction or less credible. It doesn't matter if some of the "direct speech" in the Gospels is conjecture -- the historical element is still legitimate.

We can look at the quotes, the sayings, the dialogue in the Gospels and find reasons to doubt the accuracy -- there's no need to insist that those are the exact words of Jesus, e.g. There's plenty to doubt about the quotes individually, but the hair-splitting over "direct speech" vs. "indirect speech" is irrelevant to distinguishing the fact vs. fiction or determining the accuracy.

Historians had the luxury to deal with nuance and try to clarify the ambiguous elements, if they saw fit in a rare occasion, but usually they did not because it wasn't worth the bother. Such extra verbiage was cumbersome and inappropriate, and there's no reason to think the Gospel writers should have used "indirect speech" in order to be more credible.


As Richard Pervo (“A Nihilist Fabula: Introducing the Life of Aesop,” pg. 81) explains, the frequent use of dialogue in narrative is “a mark of novelists” rather than historians.

Again, obsessing on buzz-words like "novelist" and "fiction" and "novelistic" etc., as though repeating this jargon over and over is supposed to prove something.

So, was Herodotus a "novelist" rather than a historian, because he used dialogue? How frequent is "frequent"? What does "dialogue in narrative" mean? There's lots of dialogue in the Gospels, but this is usually not "narrative" text. Arguably Herodotus uses dialogue "in narrative" more than the Gospels do, where the narrative writer and the dialogue writer are likely not the same.

Ferguson enjoys repeating the word "novelistic" over and over, as though somehow this proves the Gospels are fiction or that the Jesus miracles must be fiction. This categorizing theme is the essence of all his entire Walls of Text in the links here. In one way or another he just keeps repeating that the Gospels must be fiction because they resemble a supposed "fictional" category or "novelistic" category, as though there's a scientific scheme for categorizing every piece of literature neatly into its "genre" or classification. And so we're supposed to simply dismiss anything he declares to be in the "novelistic" or "fictional" category without judging it by anything other than its being placed into that inferior taboo category.


John is the least reliable of the Gospels, in which Jesus gives whole speeches in a prose style that is very different from the short, formulaic sayings and parables of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels. In short, the author of John probably made up a lot of Jesus’ sayings and yet did not signpost his speculation in the same way that a historian like Thucydides did.

And like 99% of the ancient writers did not do.

E.g., it is idiotic to think he should have written: as much as Jesus Christ gave sermons, it has been difficult for me to remember precisely the exact words that were spoken, either from those that I heard myself, or from those that I was informed of by others. And so, my practice has been to make the Lord say what I regard as . . .

No, the John writer doesn't do this, and only a bonehead would think he should write in such a way in order to make his account more credible. Though the questions and doubts about John are legitimate, resolving them has nothing to do with whether the writer used "signpost" language or followed the example of Thucydides.

It's not true that a writer addressing something historical must follow the standards set by Thucydides or be put into a reject category to be scoffed at as lower-class, as though the whole document is contaminated by being in the tainted category.


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
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