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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

Yep.
Atheists don't need 120 'reasons' to reject Christianity.
Hundreds and hundreds of pages of discussion about the definition of words like evidence, witness, persecution, author, scholar, miracle, manuscript, proof...

Lumpy doesn't need 120 reasons to ACCEPT Christianity.
And he makes a good point here;

Lumpenproletariat said:
On your feet, Soldier! No one promised you a life free of hardship when you took on the role of a courageous truth-seeker-debunker.
Click to expand...
 
The first four words of the bible say it all.
Genesis 1 "In the beginning God"
 
The first four words in the Quran say it all "There is no God".

It goes downhill from there rather rapidly. But as apparently partial sentences are somehow relevant to something, let's just stick with those four words.

Or would just quoting the first four words of an allegedly 'holy' text be intellectually bankrupt and insultingly pseudo-naive?
 
The first ayat of the quran is;
...In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All Praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Universe The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

Bilby is either ignorant or dishonest.
 
Learner said:
Hmmm not so sure here or why he didn't put into account ... just a tinsy winsy gist at least ... events as is according to the scriptures. Example "godism" i.e. Jesus performing miracles etc has NO mentioning of it happening AFTER his death and ressurection "the same way" being prophesied. Wouldn't it be easier to keep a tab on what follows in Revelation - which is where it would be interesting to hear his interpretation and whether such events can make sense (to him) and are there any early signs coinciding with Revelation today ? (depending how one reads it)
Of course "coincidences" will naturally be the main argument as time goes by (imho).

Some 250 years ago, philosopher David Hume noted that problem in his Essay on Miracles. Why do miracles tend to occur in out-of-the-way places with poor documentation?

Or look at what miracle believers say. Consider the Catholic Church. To become a recognized saint in that church, one has to have worked at least 2 Church-recognized miracles. Look at the miracles that some medieval saints are described as having worked. Saints like St. Genevieve and St. Francis Xavier. Now look at miracles that more recent saints have worked. Mostly miraculous cures. What a come-down for the Church.

Mother Teresa is now an Officially Recognized Saint in the Church, complete with having worked two Officially Recognized Miracles. But what sort of miracles?
  • Did MT ever speak in several languages without having to learn them?
  • Did MT ever calm any storms?
  • Did MT ever miraculously fill an empty oil can with oil or recharge a dead battery?
  • Did MT ever miraculously desalinate seawater?
  • Did MT ever point out any monster-containing trees?
  • Did MT ever get a lost crucifix returned to her by a crab?
  • Did MT ever cure anyone's blindness?
  • Did MT ever strike blind anyone who stole from her?
  • Did MT ever cause an earthquake in a town whose citizens said nasty things about her?
  • Did MT ever miraculously create any big piles of bread and fish?
  • Did MT ever raise anyone from the dead?
  • Did MT ever cure anyone with magical spit therapy?
  • Did MT ever walk on water?
  • Did MT ever turn water into wine?
  • Did MT ever zap some Missionaries of Charity employee who kept too much for herself?
  • Did MT ever turn some sticks into snakes?
  • Did MT ever sic a pack of stray dogs on some kids who teased her about being a wrinkled old hag?
  • Did MT ever have a competition with some Hindu priests about whose god was better at making a rain of fire from on high?
Click to expand...

I haven't seen her mentioned in the bible ...being a book of prophecies. Not forgetting that she belonged to one of many denominations and if you ever did find fault with MT by a particular theist "standard" say, that wouldn't be enough of an example in context to Christanity, based on one sole individual.

I have a challenge for all of you. Can you recognize the originals of any of these miracles?
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean . The first ever written miracles ? (I'm not the brightest of the bunch)
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he means. In Jesus Christ Super Star Judas asks God/Jesus:

Every time I look at you
I don't understand
Why you let the things you did
Get so out of hand
You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today
You could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
Click to expand...

There's something very suspicious about somebody only doing miracles in ways that cannot be verified for posterity. God's miracles is the equivalent of a stage magician turning his back to the audience before each trick.

And the old Christian thing about that it's a question of faith. You need to come to God yourself, and that it can't be too obvious. Ok, fine. Then why did God do any miracles? Wasn't the whole point of the miracles to convince people of Jesus divinity? So obviously God is not above using magic to convince people. Which brings us back to the original point. Why the fuck hasn't he done miracles that are on camera, or which can be measured in a scientific experiment? All God needs to do is, using his Jedi powers, to pick up a rock and suspend it somewhere in mid-air and just let it stay there. The fact that God doesn't, tells me that, assuming God really exists, that God does not want us to believe in him. I can oblige.

- - - Updated - - -

Lion IRC said:
Yep.
Atheists don't need 120 'reasons' to reject Christianity.
Hundreds and hundreds of pages of discussion about the definition of words like evidence, witness, persecution, author, scholar, miracle, manuscript, proof...

Lumpy doesn't need 120 reasons to ACCEPT Christianity.
And he makes a good point here;

Lumpenproletariat said:
On your feet, Soldier! No one promised you a life free of hardship when you took on the role of a courageous truth-seeker-debunker.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I don't get it? It's an incoherent argument. What's good about it?
 
DrZoidberg said:
Learner said:
Hmmm not so sure here or why he didn't put into account ... just a tinsy winsy gist at least ... events as is according to the scriptures. Example "godism" i.e. Jesus performing miracles etc has NO mentioning of it happening AFTER his death and ressurection "the same way" being prophesied. Wouldn't it be easier to keep a tab on what follows in Revelation - which is where it would be interesting to hear his interpretation and whether such events can make sense (to him) and are there any early signs coinciding with Revelation today ? (depending how one reads it)
Of course "coincidences" will naturally be the main argument as time goes by (imho).



I haven't seen her mentioned in the bible ...being a book of prophecies. Not forgetting that she belonged to one of many denominations and if you ever did find fault with MT by a particular theist "standard" say, that wouldn't be enough of an example in context to Christanity, based on one sole individual.

I have a challenge for all of you. Can you recognize the originals of any of these miracles?
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean . The first ever written miracles ? (I'm not the brightest of the bunch)
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he means. In Jesus Christ Super Star Judas asks God/Jesus:

Every time I look at you
I don't understand
Why you let the things you did
Get so out of hand
You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today
You could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication
Click to expand...

There's something very suspicious about somebody only doing miracles in ways that cannot be verified for posterity. God's miracles is the equivalent of a stage magician turning his back to the audience before each trick.

And the old Christian thing about that it's a question of faith. You need to come to God yourself, and that it can't be too obvious. Ok, fine. Then why did God do any miracles? Wasn't the whole point of the miracles to convince people of Jesus divinity? So obviously God is not above using magic to convince people. Which brings us back to the original point. Why the fuck hasn't he done miracles that are on camera, or which can be measured in a scientific experiment? All God needs to do is, using his Jedi powers, to pick up a rock and suspend it somewhere in mid-air and just let it stay there. The fact that God doesn't, tells me that, assuming God really exists, that God does not want us to believe in him. I can oblige.
Click to expand...
One of the funny things about this notion of free will and this purported god doing demonstrations to show its exists, is that Yahweh purportedly did this quite a few times for those Hebrews in a huge way. I mean how could one not be absolutely dumbstruck by the Nile going red, all the Egyptian first born dying, onto the parting of the sea, the pillars of fire/smoke, mana lying around on the ground each morning et.al. Yet, with Moses gone for a few days in the mountains, the dumb Hebrews smelt gold into a golden calf, thereby pissing off Yahweh.
 
Son of Quetzalcoatl?

Lion IRC said:
Lumpy doesn't need 120 reasons to ACCEPT Christianity.
And he makes a good point here;

Lumpenproletariat said:
On your feet, Soldier! No one promised you a life free of hardship when you took on the role of a courageous truth-seeker-debunker.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I have a old clock in my office room that was my father's. It regularly tells the time correctly twice a day, yet I don't depend on it as a time piece for some odd reason.

Lumpy seams to believe in some sort of detached from Yahweh custom Jesus mono god, and is quite willing to eject pretty much any portion of the Gospels that gets in the way of his rather unique theology:
Lumpenproletariat said:
The first Christ believers were people at the same place where he was -- obviously. It was a land where Judaism was the main religion, so those followers of Jesus were Jews. Had he made his appearance somewhere else on the planet, who knows what religion would have got attached to him!

In India they would have made him a Hindu Avatar, probably a reincarnation of Krishna. In Egypt, perhaps they would have made him into another Osiris. In Mexico he would have been identified as that Quetzal-something-or-other, or Son of Quetzalquotzl, etc. (don't check my spelling).

If he really did those miracle acts, any place he made his appearance would have adopted him as Son of their ancient deity, and so on. They would have put their words into his mouth and spread the "good news" of salvation to the current and future generations, making him a great Teacher of their ancient traditions, and creating a Church of some kind with rituals and liturgy etc., combining the old symbols/traditions with new elements based on his life and deeds.

There is nothing in the Judaic tradition to explain the outburst of miracle healing stories in the New Testament. This happened at a time when there was no such thing happening in Judaism. The Dead Sea Scrolls and virtually all the Jewish literature after I-II Kings has virtually nothing in it about any healing miracles. Or about a resurrection of a historical person -- someone killed and coming back to life. It's impossible to explain how these events, or claims or stories of such things, suddenly pop up in the Jewish tradition, out of nowhere.

You don’t happen to be reincarnated from a follower of Marcion?
Click to expand...

No, but maybe of some other similar heretic, and one totally forgotten.
Click to expand...
 
Lion IRC said:
The first ayat of the quran is;
...In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All Praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Universe The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

Bilby is either ignorant or dishonest.
Click to expand...

You might want to look up ignorant.
 
Lion IRC said:
The first four words of the bible say it all.
Genesis 1 "In the beginning God"
Click to expand...
Peter Zeihan's "The Accidental Super Power" begins with the words "I've always loved maps." Which can't possibly be true, unless the guy has lived forever.

I've always hated it when someone says "I've always done X".
 
Lion IRC said:
Yep.
Atheists don't need 120 'reasons' to reject Christianity.
Hundreds and hundreds of pages of discussion about the definition of words like evidence, witness, persecution, author, scholar, miracle, manuscript, proof...
Click to expand...

Well, if theists wouldn't keep trying to redefine those words to suit their beliefs, maybe we wouldn't have to have those discussions. Just sayin'.
 
In the beginning God said "What fucking beginning? I'm fucking eternal, you panty waste pansy who sites a book that begins with a statement that cannot possibly be true for an eternal being."

Enter apologist "well, like God can alter the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle, God also is talking about another beginning, before which God did other stuff, after which God began to bullshit humans for fun."
 
Lion IRC said:
The first ayat of the quran is;
...In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. All Praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Universe The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

Bilby is either ignorant or dishonest.
Click to expand...

Just ignorant. I don't really give much of a fuck about the details of Islam, and was under the mistaken impression that the Quran opened with the Shahada - which is the most common Quranic quote, just as Gen 1:1 is the most common Biblical quote I encounter.

Thank you for the correction, and the opportunity to learn something.

So, I offer the following correction:

The first four words in the Quran Shahada say it all "There is no God".

It goes downhill from there rather rapidly. But as apparently partial sentences are somehow relevant to something, let's just stick with those four words.

Or would just quoting the first four words of an allegedly 'holy' text be intellectually bankrupt and insultingly pseudo-naive?
 
DrZoidberg said:
There's something very suspicious about somebody only doing miracles in ways that cannot be verified for posterity. God's miracles is the equivalent of a stage magician turning his back to the audience before each trick.

And the old Christian thing about that it's a question of faith. You need to come to God yourself, and that it can't be too obvious. Ok, fine. Then why did God do any miracles? Wasn't the whole point of the miracles to convince people of Jesus divinity? So obviously God is not above using magic to convince people. Which brings us back to the original point. Why the fuck hasn't he done miracles that are on camera, or which can be measured in a scientific experiment? All God needs to do is, using his Jedi powers, to pick up a rock and suspend it somewhere in mid-air and just let it stay there. The fact that God doesn't, tells me that, assuming God really exists, that God does not want us to believe in him. I can oblige.
Click to expand...

Suspicious .. still don't get it? After Jesus's death and ressurection it is then the period of revelation to follow. These are the steps just as it is written , no more sripture to be added later! Direct interaction from God is NOW only through Jesus! Hence forth the unique terms only to Christians; "Witness and testimonies" and teachings for future generations ... the present and onwards for the time till the return.

There will be people who will see various signs in all manner of things and accept along the way including scientists, when they discover more ... not all of course ... not untill its right in front of them as it says in revelation. As it says ; All will believe eventually.
 
Learner said:
DrZoidberg said:
There's something very suspicious about somebody only doing miracles in ways that cannot be verified for posterity. God's miracles is the equivalent of a stage magician turning his back to the audience before each trick.

And the old Christian thing about that it's a question of faith. You need to come to God yourself, and that it can't be too obvious. Ok, fine. Then why did God do any miracles? Wasn't the whole point of the miracles to convince people of Jesus divinity? So obviously God is not above using magic to convince people. Which brings us back to the original point. Why the fuck hasn't he done miracles that are on camera, or which can be measured in a scientific experiment? All God needs to do is, using his Jedi powers, to pick up a rock and suspend it somewhere in mid-air and just let it stay there. The fact that God doesn't, tells me that, assuming God really exists, that God does not want us to believe in him. I can oblige.
Click to expand...

Suspicious .. still don't get it? After Jesus's death and ressurection it is then the period of revelation to follow. These are the steps just as it is written , no more sripture to be added later! Direct interaction from God is NOW only through Jesus! Hence forth the unique terms only to Christians; "Witness and testimonies" for future generations ... the present and onwards for the time till the return.

There will be people who will see various signs in all manner of things and accept along the way including scientists, when they discover more ... not all of course ... not untill its right in front of them as it says in revelation. All will believe eventually.
Click to expand...

How... providential.
 
Learner said:
After Jesus's death and ressurection it is then the period of revelation to follow. These are the steps just as it is written , no more sripture to be added later!
Click to expand...
But Deuteronomy also says not to add to the gospels, except if it's The Word as commanded by the SkyGuy.
So, for the New Testament to be considered gospel, and something to be added to the Bible, you'd have to prove that it's the Word as commanded by the same SkyGuy...

How do you think you might go about doing that?
 
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