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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

His flock already believed him and would be inclined to continue doing so.

No, no "flock" ever believed anyone the way you're imagining they believed Paul.

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Exactly how would you establish that no such flock evre existed?
Your bald assertions are already at odds with established history. You've denied things that did happen. You've asserted things that never happened.
Aside from the fact you don't offer any, and you have no credibility in the history of your own religion, i have to wonder: What would evidence that supports your denial here even look like?
 
"People would never buy that"

  • In the year 756 a letter appeared that was supposedly written by the emperor Constantine. This document gave the catholic church ownership of vast land holdings throughout the roman empire. For centuries this document was believed to be authentic. It was demonstrated to be fraudulent in 1440.
  • In the year 800 the "holy foreskin" of Jesus was discovered. People everywhere believed it had miraculous powers. Over time 21 different authentic foreskins of Jesus were to be found in various churches and great arguments developed over which one was the real one. The monks of Charroux even swore that theirs would yield blood when pricked (heh heh ... get it? pricked). In the 17th century many people bought that the foreskin of Jesus had ascended into heaven and become the ring around Saturn.
  • In 1184 The Toledo Letter began circulating. Vast throngs of people went into pure panic mode as the letter claimed the end of the world was imminent (September, 1186). Even after the date came and went variants of the Toledo Letter kept popping up for centuries after.
  • The Travels of Sir John Mandeville included stories of an island filled with people who had dog heads, people whose only source of nourishment was smelling apples, pygmy people with such tiny mouths they had to eat by sucking food through reeds and giant Cyclopes who ate only raw fish and raw meat. Many people bought these stories.

This doesn't include the absolutely absurd story of Joseph Smith which millions of people still buy today or the ludicrous claims of Marshall Applewhite that resulted in the suicide deaths of 39 people, or the Jim Jones atrocity in Guyana. People bought these things and they were tons more absurd than the Jesus myth.

People would never buy that a loving god would want them to hijack an airplane and fly it into a large, heavily occupied building.

People would never buy that god would want Torquemada to torture folks into confessing Christ.

People would never buy that a sneeze is the body's supernatural reflex to eliminate evil spirits and that saying "God bless you" is a way to help them do so.

People would never buy that a super galactic alien ruler named Xenu, who was in charge of 76 planets in our sector of the galaxy decided to save the world from over-population by freezing a bunch of aliens, flying their frozen bodies to Earth, dumping them in volcanoes in the South Pacific, then dropping hydrogen bombs in and blowing the whole mess into smithereens. Nobody would buy that these trillions of aliens' souls were now inhabiting the bodies of human beings on our planet.

People would never buy that a company could market the service of stalking someone you were interested in meeting, learning everything necessary to make sure you could make a good impression on him or her, and arranging an "accidental" meeting between the two of you for the low price of $78,000.

People would never buy that a company called ManBeef was actually selling human flesh for consumption.

People would never buy that a company was marketing a service whereby you could hunt naked women with a paintball gun for $10,000.

People would never buy that a company was selling bottled kittens who had to be fed through a tube and were given special chemicals that caused their bodies to conform to the shape of the bottle in which they would remain trapped.

People would never buy that Metallica was suing Unfaith because Unfaith were using the E and F chords in some of their music and Metallica had been using those same chords in their music for years.

People would never buy that some ousted Nigerian prince was contacting you to help him retrieve access to his fortune and needed you to provide him with a bank account into which he could deposit millions of dollars, and that you could keep one million for your help.

People would never buy that Barack Obama was actually born in a Kenyan volcano to a half-woman/half-goat Satanist priestess.

People. Will. Buy. Anything.
 
Atheos said:
Lumpenproletariat's entire line of reasoning boils down to nothing more than an appeal to popularity. "Why would so many believe if it were not so?"

That's close, but not quite correct. The question is: Why would so many believe if there were no evidence that it is so? It's because the evidence was so apparent that so many believed. They knew this had to be something more serious than any traditional religious cult figure or mythic hero.

I'd like to delve into this one point out of that massive post authored by Lumpenproletariat.

Lots of people believe in Santa Claus. Lots of people believe in Leprechauns. Lots of people believe God wants them to terrorize American citizens as our country is "the Great Satan." Lots of people believe their lives are effected by the deeds of Xenu, a space alien who lived 75 million years ago. Many have donated exorbitant amounts of hard-earned money to the church of Scientology to know more about these things. Millions today believe Joseph Smith's absurd tale of being taken inside a cavern in a mountain where he translated ancient hieroglyphics inscribed on golden plates in a language called "Reformed Egyptian." We have the names of actual and verifiable people who have sworn they saw these plates and witnessed the translation process. Millions believe these things in spite of the fact that nobody knows where this mysterious cavern was and the golden plates were conveniently spirited off into heaven after the translation was complete.

Not one of these things enumerated in the previous paragraph that these millions of people believe is in fact true. All of the "evidence" for their existence is in the forms of people making stuff up and selling it as if it were true. This sort of thing happens all the time. Millions of believers (even if you had documentation that they existed -- more about that in the next paragraph) is not evidence of anything other than that millions of people can be bilked in to believing some insanely stupid stuff.

Another side-point is that you have yet to demonstrate that there were that many people who believed these things when GMark came out. A lot of your argument hinges around this vast pool of believers who wouldn't have existed were it not for the strong evidence that the miracles had happened. Yet you cannot provide any evidence that such a throng of believers existed. All you have is an anonymous book, and you have no evidence that vast numbers of people were that enamored with it. The book is evidence that one or more people were responsible for producing it, but beyond that it is evidence of little else. For all we know the book may have been originally written as historical fiction, with the Jesus character inserted into the turmoil of bygone years in the same way that Rhett Butler was inserted into the civil war era in Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. And spare me the "but nobody believes Rhett Butler is a god-man who performed miracles" argument. That's irrelevant. The insertion of a fictional character into a historical/geographic background was then and remains a staple of historical fiction. It doesn't matter if the fictional character is Magneto menacing President Nixon or Jesus arguing with Pilate.

There is nothing ... absolutely nothing about GMark that isn't completely consistent with a combination of charismatic spiritualist salesmanship on the part of Paul combined with his followers slowly developing more and more anecdotes about Jesus over a period of decades. And these are the sorts of things people do. What people don't do is heal blindness and paralysis with a mere touch, walk on storm tossed water, resurrect dead people and levitate off into the clouds. On the one hand you've got a rational explanation that is consistent with evidence, on the other hand you've got an irrational explanation requiring people to believe in a first century magic Jew who actually did perform all these acts.
 
Nicely put, Atheos.
Now, just sit back and wait, and some time around 4 March, Lumpy will respond and repeat his assertion that it only makes sense if the miracles were real.
 
The insertion of a fictional character into a historical/geographic background was then and remains a staple of historical fiction. It doesn't matter if the fictional character is Magneto menacing President Nixon or Jesus arguing with Pilate.

Reminds me of  John_Frum. He never existed, yet lots of superstitious people believe he did, that he performed miracles, and that he'll return soon to save his believers.

But, as some would say, that someone believes he existed is a kind of evidence that he existed.
 
Why would so many believe if there were no evidence that it is so? It's because the evidence was so apparent that so many believed. They knew this had to be something more serious than any traditional religious cult figure or mythic hero.

Why did so many people believe in the reality of their respective gods, Zeus, Ra, Odin...and our current believers in Brahma, Shiva, Allah, etc, etc?

Is the evidence so apparent to those who believe their god's exist and are actual entities? If one is true, the others must be false. And what makes one god real and true if those outside of the faith cannot see the evidence that the faithful claim is there to see?
 
During the lull I'd like to point out evidence directly from GMark that the development of anecdotes happened over several decades and was assembled by the editors of GMark into a single narrative.

In GMark 7 we find a brief narrative about Jesus multiplying a small amount of food to feed thousands of people. In this version of the anecdote Jesus is teaching in a desert place they'd tried to sneak off to by boat but the vast hoards followed them by foot. Interestingly this desert place had green grass for the people to sit on when he decided to show off his mad replicator skills. It should be noted also that this was entirely unnecessary. The story line makes it clear that sending the people to the nearby villages so they could buy their own food is a reasonable option. When Jesus suggests they feed the people right there his disciples ask if he expects them to go buy "200 pennyworth of bread" and bring it back to feed the people.

But Jesus takes the 5 loaves and 2 fish they have right there and uses it to feed the entire crowd, which consists of about 5000 men. They then collect 12 baskets of leftovers, ostensibly considerably more food than they started off with.

But in GMark 8 we read a different version of the same anecdote. Again, Jesus feeds thousands of people with a few loaves and fish. The numbers are different (there are around 4000 people, 7 loaves and a few small fish, and the number of baskets of leftovers was 7), and the circumstances are different (the people haven't eaten in 3 days and they are far enough from food that many will doubtless faint before reaching adequate food so sending them away is not a viable option) but the anecdote is virtually identical including the disciples skepticism at the beginning of the anecdote. If anything the disciples are obviously more skeptical of success this time around even though the numbers are slightly tilted in their favor. They have more food to start with and less people to feed with it. Add to that they've already seen Jesus do this same trick just two chapters ago, and as Lumpenproletariat is always so eager to point out the entire ministry of Jesus took place in a span of less than 3 years, so "it had been so long since the last time that they'd completely forgotten he could do something like that" blows through the "straight face" barrier like an ICBM through tissue paper.

The most reasonable explanation for the presence of these two narratives as they appear in GMark is that they started off as a single narrative and were retold orally in different places where the details altered a bit over time. Eventually when the authors of GMark got together, some of them were steadfastly certain the first narrative was how it happened and others were equally dogmatic that it happened the other way. The obvious compromise was that Jesus had done a similar thing on more than one occasion and both narratives were woven into the story line tapestry.

  • ~50 A.D. - Jesus is a nebulous heavenly messenger talking directly to Paul. Paul's charisma results in dozens of small pockets of fanatical believers.
  • ~55 A.D. - People start introducing anecdotes about things Jesus did, such as calming storms and healing diseases. No time frame, just tales
  • ~60 A.D. - Oral development of tales continues, sequencing of tales begins to take place
  • ~65 A.D. - Historicization begins to take place as Jesus is associated with well known figures such as JtB, Herod and Pilate
  • ~70 A.D. - Editors of GMark assemble and piece together a narrative from their recollections of these oral traditions. Too many disparate conclusions keep them from going past Mark 16:8

This is an entirely reasonable sequence of progression and it is consistent with all the evidence we have.
 
but the anecdote is virtually identical including the disciples skepticism at the beginning of the anecdote.
Well, that's the main purpose of the disciples. That skepticism before each miracle.
I think it's a standard of the time, a method of building up suspense.
Jesus is a gonna do something no human can do, the disciples point out to him that no one could do that, he insists and then he comes through.

In reality, at some point, SOME of the disciples would have started agreeing with Jesus, or even counting on him.
Imagine if someone just happened to mention, in front of Superman, that a meteor was going to fall on Metropolis. Specifically, the 342nd meteor to fall on Metropolis for the last three fiscal years. Then Superman says, I'll stop the meteor. Just like he did for the last 341 times. Then imagine Lois and Perry and Jimmy and all of them acting skeptical. "I dunno, Superman, that's a really BIG meteor...."

I admit that Superman comix aren't a form of history, but at least the characters that see him exhibit his superpowers every day not only come to accept that he HAS superpowers, but even come to depend on them. They EXPECT Superman to be able to stop meteors.

The author(s) of the gospel accounts would have been better served if the doubts had been put in the mouths of the locals, while the disciples started to bet money that he COULD feed thousands like a chef version of MacGuyver. "I need 12 loaves, a bucket of fish, two rubber bands and a stick of gum!"
 
From Atheism: The Case Against God, by George H. Smith:

If one compares reports of miracles from the so-called synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and
Luke), one will find that, as one moves from the earlier to the later Gospels, some of the miracles
become more exaggerated. Consider the following passage from Mark, the earliest Gospel:
That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with
demons. ... And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out
many demons. ... (1:32-34)


Now compare the same incident as reported by the two later Gospels, Matthew and Luke (who
probably took the original account from Mark and amended it). Here is Matthew:
That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he
cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. (8:16)


And here is Luke:
Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various
diseases brought them to him; and he laid his hands on every one of them and
healed them. (4:40)


According to Mark, all were brought to Jesus and many were healed; according to Matthew,
many were brought and all were healed; and according to Luke, all were brought and all were
healed. The miracle keeps getting better all the time. As A. Robertson observes, “We are
witnessing the progressive growth of a legend."
 
Another telling aspect of the miracle BS is the casting out of demons. In ancient and superstitious times many diseases were believed to be the result of evil spirits invading the body. Some forms of insanity were regarded as demon possession, resulting from a demon invasion that wasn't successfully repelled.

The truth is that we know what causes nearly every malady known to mankind now, and not once in that period of discovery has it ever been concluded that an individual was suffering from demon possession. The inclusion of such absurd incidents in the Jesus myth (including the demons actually having conversations with Jesus prior to their evictions) is yet another gentle reminder that the folks making these things up were living in darker and more superstitious times. Nobody can blame those folks for believing this crap. But modern people have no business still believing such absurdities any more than they have believing Joseph Smith's stories. Yet here we are.
 
OOoh, that's a point, too.
Lumpy has the Rose-colored-glasses theology filter on. He doesn't want to believe in Hell. I wonder, then, if he credits the parts of the Books that tell us that demons exist and they live in Hell?
If not, if he'd rather not believe that supernatural creatures exist to torment humanity, then he can't believe that the act of casting out demons is an effective cure for disease, disability, dementia....
Which would further mean that the accounts of the healing miracles that are described as being performed by exorcism can be discounted. EITHER they're completely made-up fiction added to the narrative, or if they're real accounts, the 'witnesses' misunderstood what they thought they saw, and are not credible accounts. I mean, if you can't tell the difference between epilepsy and possession, you probably can't tell the difference between a miracle and a scam.
 
Another telling aspect of the miracle BS is the casting out of demons. In ancient and superstitious times many diseases were believed to be the result of evil spirits invading the body. Some forms of insanity were regarded as demon possession, resulting from a demon invasion that wasn't successfully repelled.

The truth is that we know what causes nearly every malady known to mankind now, and not once in that period of discovery has it ever been concluded that an individual was suffering from demon possession. The inclusion of such absurd incidents in the Jesus myth (including the demons actually having conversations with Jesus prior to their evictions) is yet another gentle reminder that the folks making these things up were living in darker and more superstitious times. Nobody can blame those folks for believing this crap. But modern people have no business still believing such absurdities any more than they have believing Joseph Smith's stories. Yet here we are.

And to wrap it up...

Let’s just grant the possibility that there is a Creator God, who’s omniscient, who occasionally authors books. And he’s gonna give us a book – the most useful book. He’s a loving God, he’s a compassionate God, and he’s gonna give us a guide to life. He’s got a scribe, the scribe’s gonna write it down. What’s gonna be in that book? I mean just think of how good a book would be if it were authored by an omniscient deity. I mean, there is not a single line in the Bible or the Koran that could not have been authored by a first century person. There is not one reference to anything – there are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves, and who to kill and why. There’s nothing about electricity, there’s nothing about DNA, there’s nothing about infectious disease, the principles of infectious disease. There’s nothing particularly useful, and there’s a lot of iron age barbarism in there, and superstition. This is not a candidate book.

-Sam Harris (from interview on ThinkBig)
 
I mean, if you can't tell the difference between epilepsy and possession, you probably can't tell the difference between a miracle and a scam.

From Richard Carrier's Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire:

From all of this one thing should be apparent: the age of Jesus was not an age of critical reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an era filled with con artists, gullible believers, martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the Gospels do not seem very remarkable. Even if they were false in every detail, there is no evidence that they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd by many people, who at the time had little in the way of education or critical thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones, photographs, or public documents to consult to check a story. If they were not a witness, all they had was a man's word. And even if they were a witness, the tales above tell us that even then their skills of critical reflection were lacking. Certainly, this age did not lack keen and educated skeptics—it is not that there were no skilled and skeptical observers. There were. Rather, the shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered their voice and seized the world from them, boldly leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years of chaos. Perhaps we should not repeat the same mistake. After all, the wise learn from history. The fool ignores it.
 
From Richard Carrier's Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire:

From all of this one thing should be apparent: the age of Jesus was not an age of critical reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an era filled with con artists, gullible believers, martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every variety.

About twenty years ago my wife and I went on a trip through some of the less touristed parts of Indonesia. We weren't pioneers or anthropologists, but we did visit and pass through some villages where people were living without TVs or radios, keeping their own pigs and chickens, building their own huts and pretty much living as they had done for thousands of years. What surprised me most was how fantastically interested they were in us. People would come out and stare as we walked by. They were bored so shitless that we were a welcome diversion!

Now, if village life is so incredibly dull that a couple of tourists is the most interesting thing to happen this month, what kind of stories are you going to tell to while away the long nights without TV? Tedious accounts of your own familiar daily lives? Or stories about fantastic, exotic, people who can do amazing things? When the tribal headman makes his annual visit to the next kampung up the river, what's he going to talk to his opposite number about? Pigs, or supernatural marvels?

There's nothing remotely surprising about marvellous stories springing up and spreading in a largely pre-literate culture where most people live in the same house and do the same job all their lives, and never go more than a day's walk from their village. What the fuck else are they going to do for amusement?
 
There's nothing remotely surprising about marvellous stories springing up and spreading in
a largely pre-literate
culture
Also, Lumpy wants to believe that if it took hundreds of years for the stories to be written down, that corresponds to hundreds of years for the stories to get marvelous and fantastic.
Your post makes me think it's much more likely that they got fantastic pretty quickly, just to provide entertainment value. The hundreds of years before being recorded says a lot about the literacy level of the culture, but nothing about when any element of the story was added.

I'd love to see Lumpy show some evidence that it takes hundreds of years for basic mythification.
 
Reason #6: Failure to Return

Biblical historians are quite clear on this matter -- Early Christians, notably Jesus, Paul, the disciples, and other followers were all convinced that the end of times was near and that an earthly kingdom presided over by Jesus would be established within the lifetime of some people who were then currently alive. The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

There's good reason to believe Jesus never made this statement.

It's doubtful that he ever spoke of the "Son of Man" or of the end of the world, but maybe he did. All these quotes could be words that were placed into his mouth. The themes were obviously a part of the already-existing culture and not something he invented. But if he did speak of this it's probably true that he spoke of it happening "soon" or as something "imminent."

However, the "some who are standing here will not taste death before" phrase does not fit well with the Jesus of about 29-30 AD. This pronouncement clearly implies that some WILL die before the "Son of Man" comes, and probably more than only 2 or 3, because it implies that the ones who will not die before then are a somewhat limited number. I.e., only a few will survive to that day, probably not many.

So, how long would that period be? It surely suggests many years, probably more than 10 or even more than 20. Long enough for a good number of them to die. It allows the time lapse to be longer than was the popular perception. The perception was that the end was coming very soon, probably only a few days or weeks or maybe months, but not several years.

Therefore, this statement probably dates from many years later, like 20 or 30. But there also has to be a limit on how much later, because if it's too much later, none of those original disciples are still living.

So this statement fits well at around 60-70 AD when some of them have died but others are still living. Maybe even 80 AD, but no later than this. The "end of the world" sayings fit better in the period from the destruction of the Temple and after the increased persecution, like that under Nero. When conditions got worse, it was taken as a sign that the end was drawing near, plus also there was increased need for reassurance in the face of these disastrous setbacks.

So it's best to understand this statement about "some standing here" as an admonition from a later Christian writer around 70 AD giving reassurance to those persecuted Christians. This writer, perhaps Mark, or his source, no doubt believed Jesus said warnings like this about the end, but exaggerated it by specifically connecting it to the lives of a few who would still be surviving into the 80s or 90s.

Maybe Jesus did speak of the "end of the world" as something happening soon, or maybe not. We don't know. But what's almost certain is that he would not promote the idea that the end is far enough in the future so that many of those standing there would die first. This would be out of character. There was never any thinking that "the end" would be coming in 40 or 50 years down the line. Much more likely than this would be that he said nothing about the "end of the world" at all. This could be just one further example of words put into his mouth by the writers who got these ideas from the popular apocalyptic writings.

So this is not an error that Jesus committed, i.e., not a prediction of his that failed to happen.


Jesus also advised against going to court against someone who steals from you and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

All that's clear is that there was a motley array of sundry characters who wanted to make Jesus their mouthpiece for their ideas. We know what they thought, but not what Jesus thought or advised. We only know that they chose Jesus as their mouthpiece. And the question to ask is why they chose him and not someone else for this role, in 30 AD when he was no one of any importance or noteworthiness (unless he had a reputation as a miracle-worker).


Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

No, this only shows that a major expectation of 1st-century Christians was mistaken. But this expectation is itself evidence of something. What caused them to have such an expectation in the first place? What happened initially that led them to make a god out of him?

In your theory of how the early Jesus cult got started, if he did not do any miracle acts, you need to explain what caused them to make this person, real or fictional, into a god. No one has given this explanation yet. The Second Coming is one of many symbols that they attached to him, and no one yet has given an explanation why they chose this person to attach these symbols to, and not to any other particular persons in history.

How did all the mythologizers agree to choose this one figure as their deity for their second-coming symbol and virgin birth and other symbols? Why don't we have several of these Christ-like hero figures who emerge suddenly in history, out of nowhere, and become made into a god within a few decades?


The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)

This might be an argument against a Christianity that defines Jesus as the Jewish Messiah who fulfills these prophecies in accordance with the expectations of a particular group of Jews (and not all Jews had the same messianic expectations). However, Jesus does not have to be defined this way.

Rather, he was a person in Galilee who performed miracle acts, attracted a following, went to Jerusalem, and was executed there. Then the mythologizing turned him into many things, depending upon which faction used him for its purpose. Only one faction tried to make him fit all the Jewish messiah prophecies. And maybe he didn't fit very well, and yet they tried so hard, as did many other factions try to make him fit into their religious or political scheme.

And so the question should be: Why did all these different factions, mostly hostile to each other, try to adopt Jesus and make him fit into their definition or their formula for a divine hero or cosmic entity or revolutionary symbol? Why did they all converge on this one figure, this Galilean who had no special qualities (if he didn't do any miracle acts) and had no reputation when he died?

Why did they formalize his trial, make him into the big news of the day in Jerusalem, when in reality he was arbitrarily condemned to death in an informal proceeding which hardly anyone noticed, and quickly eliminated like John the Baptist or the church leader James was eliminated. If anyone should have been deified or mythologized with a resurrection story and a 2nd Coming symbol, it should have been either of these two rather than Jesus.

So, why was Jesus, and he alone, chosen to receive all these mythologizing symbols and not James or John the Baptist or someone else?

No one has answered this question. The answers supposedly given to this all ignore this Jesus figure in particular and only claim that myths or cults can get started. But in all cases the mythic hero had some quality that drew the attention to him, or had a public image or reputation going back over many generations or centuries.

To answer the question, you must tell us what it was about this Jesus figure, a real or fictional character of no standing in 30-40 AD, that drew the attention and caused so many people to choose him in particular as their messiah-savior figure instead of someone else. Not only why this one, but this one ONLY instead of several who were more noteworthy than he was and could serve as hero figures for different factions.

I.e., there should be a political revolutionary Jesus-like figure, a rabbinic-pharisee Jesus-like figure, an Essene Jesus-like figure, a gnostic Jesus-like figure, an apocalyptic Son of Man Jesus-like figure, and so on. We should have many, not only this one, because it is not reasonable for all these different factions, who mostly hated each other, to all converge on this one Galilean figure to make him their common mythic hero.

Until a good explanation is given for this, you cannot dismiss out-of-hand the simple explanation that he must have actually performed those miracle acts, on a grand scale that would attract wide interest, from so many different conflicting camps.
 
There's good reason to believe Jesus never made this statement.

Indeed there is. And exactly the same reason to believe that Jesus never made ANY statement attributed to him by the Bible.

If you are prepared to accept that Matthew 16:28 is wrong, what possible reason is there not to accept that the entirety of the four gospels are wrong; or the entire NT, or the entire Bible?

None of it is supported by any extra-biblical evidence. It is a fairy story.
 
Is Christ unique, or is there just as much evidence for "other religions" which are equally credible?

A phrase like "the right religion" or "the wrong religion" is non-serious and has to be understood only in a sarcastic sense to have any legitimate point to it.

So every time a member of one sect or religion has told me that all other religions are going to Hell, they were sarcastic?

Somehow, i doubt that.

I doubt any such person ever said that to you. Can you give us a website of some religious cult that says all other religions are going to Hell?

There might be a tiny few of them, but 90% of them are just being sarcastic and don't mean it seriously.


. . . your argument that there's evidence for Christ seems to involve completely ignoring a shitload of other religions and pretending Christianity is unique.

It really isn't.

You have the evidence I gave. The miracle accounts in the gospels showing that Jesus had power.

What evidence do the "other religions" give?

Some have suggested Joseph Smith as a case. The evidence there is not as good, because of so few sources, and also he had a period of 15 years or so to establish his reputation and public image as a prophet, which made it easier for normal mythologizing to take place.

But even so, maybe he did a small number of healings -- I don't rule it out. This is not comparable to the power Jesus demonstrated. And also, Smith based his religion on Christian tradition, adding his new interpretation of the Christ belief, so he is not an alternative religion to Christianity, but is one division of it.

If some other religions have equally persuasive evidence to offer, give an example for us to consider and compare. I've already given reasons why Buddha and Zoroaster and the gods Zeus and Apollo and Perseus etc. are not comparable. As to Mohammed, he's not reputed to have done any miracles, so we have no evidence of his power.

You are the one who has to provide the examples for us to consider, since you say these "other religions" exist which have evidence.


Can't read Plato unless you also read Plotinus and Spinoza and Squarcialuppi and every crackpot who ever self-published his theory of the universe?

No, but if you're going to say that PLATO was the only philosopher to accurately describe the universe, without ever even reading a summary of Plotinus, Spinoza and so on, then you're going to end up looking like a fucking moron.

I'm not making that kind of claim about Christ or Christianity. There's lots of truth (and error) coming from many different philosophers and mystics and cults, and no one of them has all the truth.

I'm claiming that Christ showed power on a magnitude that we don't see in other cases. Other examples of anyone having power are either much less credible, for lack of evidence, or, in some cases where someone may have had power, are of much lower importance because of the very limited range or degree of the power that was shown, like the case of Rasputin, for whom the evidence is very strong, but who had only power to heal one child and that was all.

Most Christians believe Christ had or has such unique or singular power, though they don't study all the examples from history of someone else having power. This doesn't mean they're wrong. They can reasonably believe in the uniqueness of Christ, though it's always better to learn more, like learning of other examples of reported miracle-workers for comparison. But their belief is legitimate even if they don't learn more, because you can always learn more about anything, and this limit on your knowledge doesn't invalidate what you already know or believe.

I have good reason to believe there aren't any other examples of miracle-workers comparable to Christ, because I keep asking for them and no one can give any good examples for whom we have good evidence. But keep offering them, or pretending to offer them, and we will keep comparing them individually. That's the best we can do.


You start by choosing the one on the list which you think is the most believable, and you consider it, having a proponent of it present their pitch to you.

You START by choosing the most believable? THEN examine their evidence?

Do you begin to understand how fucking wrong that is?

Or, how IMPOSSIBLE that would be? IF you haven't listened to the 'pitch,' then how in the world would you know if The First Church of Shatnerism is believable or not?

You said Christianity is not unique and that there's a "shitload of other religions" out there that are ignored, and this ignoring leads to the mistake that Christianity is unique.

For you to say this you must know something about these "other religions" that would cast doubt on the uniqueness of Christianity. So give an example of these "other religions" and what it is about them that makes Christianity not to be unique.

My claim is that the Christ figure is unique, not so much the religion that worships him, except that the person it worships is unique, because of the power he showed. Except for this focus on Christ I don't claim Christianity is unique. So tell us what disproves his uniqueness. Something in these "other religions"? Tell us what it is. Is there some other source of power they know of that competes with the power he demonstrated?

You must already know a little about these "other religions" so that you can make this claim that Christ is not unique. So tell us what little you know about them, or about one of them. If you know nothing at all about them, then how can you say that Christ or Christianity is not unique because of these "other religions" which challenge this uniqueness? How do you know Christ is not unique? Isn't it something you know about these "other religions"?

Maybe you only have limited evidence about these "other religions," but at least you have some. So pick out the one you know most about, or the one that best competes with Christ or Christianity, and tell us how it is equal or superior.

Is this something like choosing the "best" TV or "best" i phone but never knowing for sure, and so therefore you can never choose one because no matter how many you consider, you'll never know for sure that it's the "best"?

What is wrong with choosing Christ as one's best hope for eternal life, but not ruling out the possibility that some other option could also pop up some day, and being ready to modify one's choice if that should happen? Why should a person have to make no choice at all simply because there is the possibility of an endless series of further choices that could show up sometime in the future?

Rather, those who say there are other choices should present them. Pick out the ones that seem most likely. Tell us about any other good choices you think exist. Don't just hint at it and keep us in suspense by not giving us the examples. We're all waiting eagerly on the edge of our seats to hear the other examples. "Bring them on."


What nutty system would you use to consider what's 'believable' if you don't know why the proponents think it's true?

But you know at least something, a little, about these "other religions" that compete with Christ or Christianity and make this not unique. So you must know something of what those proponents think. If you know nothing of them, then you can't know that they are competitive with Christianity, in which case you can't say Christianity is not unique. So just tell us what you do know about them and why you think they're equal to Christianity.


Jesus Christ and his All Nurse Band, what a bunch of presuppositionist crap you're flogging, there.

Yes, I've been meaning to talk to you about that.
 
There's good reason to believe Jesus never made this statement.
Oh, fuck that.
Your apology for a failed prophecy from The Books is to pretend it's not supposed to be in the Books?
That's the apologist version of covering your eyes with your hands and declaring 'can't see me.' Cute in a 3 year old child, worrisome in a ten year old and fucking idiotic in an adult.
 
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