15 percent of women are raped while incapacitated during their freshman year at college

[bigfield]

As I was trying to clarify in my post: inability vs. ability is a binary state. You are either able or unable. If you think the word has other options, tell me now. Do you think that more than 15% of female college students believe in this other definition?

More like some people here believe 14.999999% of the women are lying.

Of course.

The real figure is actually 30%.

Lying bitches.

 

[Malintent]

I would agree if "force" was part of the definition. It is not. the keyword apparently is "unwanted".

You are having a problem with the definition of unwanted. If your wife does it willingly, then she decided to do it. She looked at the different options and chose the one she wanted.

I'm not having the problem.. it is women that choose to have sex with someone, decide at a later time that it was a bad idea, categorize the encounter as "unwanted", and then claim it was rape - retroactively.

Do you choose to go to work or do you choose to be unemployed? If you choose to go to work, does that mean that you wanted to go to work or is it that you didn't want to be unemployed? that is the difference between "Wanted" and "Willing" (as you put it).

If the definition of rape involved the word "willing" (against her will), then that would be acceptable (synonymous with "forced", as others suggested as well). The definition of rape involving the word "wanted" is where problems may be.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You are having a problem with the definition of unwanted. If your wife does it willingly, then she decided to do it. She looked at the different options and chose the one she wanted.

I'm not having the problem.. it is women that choose to have sex with someone, decide at a later time that it was a bad idea, categorize the encounter as "unwanted", and then claim it was rape - retroactively.

Then it wasn't unwanted. So you are having difficulty with the word.

Do you choose to go to work or do you choose to be unemployed? If you choose to go to work, does that mean that you wanted to go to work or is it that you didn't want to be unemployed? that is the difference between "Wanted" and "Willing" (as you put it).

It means I wanted to go to work because being unemployed is an unwanted alternative. Being unemployed is unwanted. If my employer fired me, then I'd have an unwanted outcome. I may want to go back to work out of the choices I have in real life and I may show up in the parking lot looking for my red stapler, but I'm still in an unwanted situation.

If the definition of rape involved the word "willing" (against her will), then that would be acceptable (synonymous with "forced", as others suggested as well). The definition of rape involving the word "wanted" is where problems may be.

Except that rape isn't just violent, physical force. It can also be done Bill Cosby style, when a person is incapacitated (passed out). Or it can be done to someone who is mentally incompetent (seriously handicapped, senior citizen with dementia, or so drunk) such that they can be manipulated by telling them they will get a free trip to Disney to become Sleeping Beauty and meet Prince Charming. In all of these cases it is unwanted by a competent person who has capacity to make rational decisions and appreciate consequences.

We call it rape when someone is so drunk that they are incompetent and allow for the case that drunk people can have mutual non-consent in the same way that we as a society allow two adults with Down Syndrome to marry each other.

We call it non-consent in the same way that we call it unwanted when a doctor comes into a patient's room when they are on heavy morphine and tries to get them to sign a form to be an organ donor.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Inability only has one degree. You can't do it, or you can.

A: Can you speak Spanish?
B: Well, not really but I know how to say "hello" and "thank you."
A: Then you CAN speak Spanish but you really suck at it.
A: Can you translate this sentence, "¿Cuantos años tiene?"
B: No, I can't.
A: Correct. You are able to speak Spanish but you are unable to translate simple Spanish sentences.
A: Could you say "No," shake your head, or push away the person who last sexually penetrated you?
B: No, I couldn't.
A: Then you were definitely raped unless you gave explicit consent for exactly that type of situation beforehand.

Sounds like the idiots that run the jury duty system here.

They treat "speak English" as a binary state--never mind that it's quite possible to have enough English to get by without having enough English to do a reasonable job on a jury.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are assuming that everybody is talking about two college kids who get drunk at a party and bang each other. While plenty of that happens at parties and bars and elsewhere, so does the circumstance where someone will specifically try to get someone else drunk or stoned or otherwise incapacitated so that they cannot make an effective defense.

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You are assuming that everybody is talking about two college kids who get drunk at a party and bang each other. While plenty of that happens at parties and bars and elsewhere, so does the circumstance where someone will specifically try to get someone else drunk or stoned or otherwise incapacitated so that they cannot make an effective defense.

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

Do you have some evidence for all of these assertions?

 

[Bronzeage]

You are assuming that everybody is talking about two college kids who get drunk at a party and bang each other. While plenty of that happens at parties and bars and elsewhere, so does the circumstance where someone will specifically try to get someone else drunk or stoned or otherwise incapacitated so that they cannot make an effective defense.

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

This post should be used in a text on confirmation bias.

 

[Toni]

You are assuming that everybody is talking about two college kids who get drunk at a party and bang each other. While plenty of that happens at parties and bars and elsewhere, so does the circumstance where someone will specifically try to get someone else drunk or stoned or otherwise incapacitated so that they cannot make an effective defense.

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

Couple of points: That 15% is the lowest figure I've ever seen, and I've been following the issue since I was in college a million years ago.

You also seem to insist that the survey authors don't know what they are talking about because you don't know what they're talking about and because you don't like the results. You have decided that the authors of the survey were not precise because YOU don't like the results.

Your refusal to engage in honest discourse about the issues of rape backfire. Only fellow misogynists believe that the numbers are inflated. And no where, never is there a single suggestion that perhaps men could change some of their behavior, that society should change some norms to reduce the incidence of sexual assault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

Couple of points: That 15% is the lowest figure I've ever seen, and I've been following the issue since I was in college a million years ago.

You also seem to insist that the survey authors don't know what they are talking about because you don't know what they're talking about and because you don't like the results. You have decided that the authors of the survey were not precise because YOU don't like the results.

Your refusal to engage in honest discourse about the issues of rape backfire. Only fellow misogynists believe that the numbers are inflated. And no where, never is there a single suggestion that perhaps men could change some of their behavior, that society should change some norms to reduce the incidence of sexual assault.

Lowest???

The number being thrown about by the rape-plague scaremongers is 25% over their college experience. This is 15% in one year. That's more than twice as high.

We've already exposed that 25% number as bogus because it includes things that clearly aren't rape. This survey doesn't reveal a yardstick that could be used to make it crap, it's reporting a far higher number. The reasonable conclusion is that the yardstick is crap.

 

[Toni]

Couple of points: That 15% is the lowest figure I've ever seen, and I've been following the issue since I was in college a million years ago.

You also seem to insist that the survey authors don't know what they are talking about because you don't know what they're talking about and because you don't like the results. You have decided that the authors of the survey were not precise because YOU don't like the results.

Your refusal to engage in honest discourse about the issues of rape backfire. Only fellow misogynists believe that the numbers are inflated. And no where, never is there a single suggestion that perhaps men could change some of their behavior, that society should change some norms to reduce the incidence of sexual assault.

Lowest???

The number being thrown about by the rape-plague scaremongers is 25% over their college experience. This is 15% in one year. That's more than twice as high.

We've already exposed that 25% number as bogus because it includes things that clearly aren't rape. This survey doesn't reveal a yardstick that could be used to make it crap, it's reporting a far higher number. The reasonable conclusion is that the yardstick is crap.

Loren, your refusal to believe stats compiled by many different organizations over many years on many campuses is not the same thing as 'debunking,' any more than a four year old stamping his feet and pitting his fingers in his ears screaming no is a convincing argument that it is not time for bed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Lowest???

The number being thrown about by the rape-plague scaremongers is 25% over their college experience. This is 15% in one year. That's more than twice as high.

We've already exposed that 25% number as bogus because it includes things that clearly aren't rape. This survey doesn't reveal a yardstick that could be used to make it crap, it's reporting a far higher number. The reasonable conclusion is that the yardstick is crap.

Loren, your refusal to believe stats compiled by many different organizations over many years on many campuses is not the same thing as 'debunking,' any more than a four year old stamping his feet and pitting his fingers in his ears screaming no is a convincing argument that it is not time for bed.

Wasn't the one that said 25% referred to sexual assault, not just rape?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Loren, your refusal to believe stats compiled by many different organizations over many years on many campuses is not the same thing as 'debunking,' any more than a four year old stamping his feet and pitting his fingers in his ears screaming no is a convincing argument that it is not time for bed.

Wasn't the one that said 25% referred to sexual assault, not just rape?

yes, but the percent was also higher.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Lowest???

The number being thrown about by the rape-plague scaremongers is 25% over their college experience. This is 15% in one year. That's more than twice as high.

We've already exposed that 25% number as bogus because it includes things that clearly aren't rape. This survey doesn't reveal a yardstick that could be used to make it crap, it's reporting a far higher number. The reasonable conclusion is that the yardstick is crap.

Loren, your refusal to believe stats compiled by many different organizations over many years on many campuses is not the same thing as 'debunking,' any more than a four year old stamping his feet and pitting his fingers in his ears screaming no is a convincing argument that it is not time for bed.

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

I also see all this harping about campus rape--despite fewer college women actually report rape to the police than women of the same age but not in college. This makes me suspect the stats and then when I look at exactly what's asked I find problems.

 

[Toni]

Loren, your refusal to believe stats compiled by many different organizations over many years on many campuses is not the same thing as 'debunking,' any more than a four year old stamping his feet and pitting his fingers in his ears screaming no is a convincing argument that it is not time for bed.

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

I also see all this harping about campus rape--despite fewer college women actually report rape to the police than women of the same age but not in college. This makes me suspect the stats and then when I look at exactly what's asked I find problems.

You are refusing to believe the stats because you don't like what they reveal.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

If someone is scared into sex, manipulated while drunk, or jumped while passed out, it doesn't mean they consented.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

I also see all this harping about campus rape--despite fewer college women actually report rape to the police than women of the same age but not in college. This makes me suspect the stats and then when I look at exactly what's asked I find problems.

You are refusing to believe the stats because you don't like what they reveal.

I'm refusing to believe stats that don't make sense.

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

If someone is scared into sex, manipulated while drunk, or jumped while passed out, it doesn't mean they consented.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

"Unwanted" can include things like doing it to keep your partner.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

You are refusing to believe the stats because you don't like what they reveal.

I'm refusing to believe stats that don't make sense.

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

If someone is scared into sex, manipulated while drunk, or jumped while passed out, it doesn't mean they consented.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

"Unwanted" can include things like doing it to keep your partner.

Please show evidence from the survey that they constructed it that way. A mere word of "unwanted" does not demonstrate it because that is not how it would be interpreted by young ladies, unless you think young ladies are stupid.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The survey provides no information about how they constructed it. It may have been done in a good way or it may have been done in a terrible way, but they didn't include anything to make a dyermination one at or another.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm refusing to believe stats that don't make sense.

I'm refusing to believe stats with serious flaws in them. For example, the rape stats typically class unwanted sex as rape--even if that actually means she consented for reasons other than wanting sex.

If someone is scared into sex, manipulated while drunk, or jumped while passed out, it doesn't mean they consented.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

"Unwanted" can include things like doing it to keep your partner.

Please show evidence from the survey that they constructed it that way. A mere word of "unwanted" does not demonstrate it because that is not how it would be interpreted by young ladies, unless you think young ladies are stupid.

We discussed it at the time. The potential interpretation of "unwanted" was never rebutted.

- - - Updated - - -

The survey provides no information about how they constructed it. It may have been done in a good way or it may have been done in a terrible way, but they didn't include anything to make a dyermination one at or another.

In this sort of thing guilty until proven innocent is the proper approach.

 

[Malintent]

But these surveys don't distinguish the two cases.

It's the usual pattern: Identify a real issue. Do everything you can to inflate the numbers to make people take the problem more seriously. Often this is followed by finding solutions to those inflated numbers and crowing about success--while the original problem remains untouched.

The actual result is that it backfires as people see the cases in those inflated numbers and realize they're crap.

Do you have some evidence for all of these assertions?

Yes, your post history of exaggerated issues. Human nature to want to 'convince' people of your particular 'way'. the innate human ability to lie and get away with it.

I'm not accusing you of being anything but a normal human... but this is some evidence that people exaggerate to convince. It is as common as the 'white lie'.