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2 UM students expelled for getting girl drunk and raping her

RavenSky

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The teen reported the crime to University of Miami Police, who then contacted the local police department.

A spokesperson for the Coral Gables police department told BuzzFeed that on Tuesday Figueroa and Blue went to the police station and admitted to “buying and administering several alcoholic beverages for the victim” and taking her back to Figueroa’s dorm room, where they “performed sexual acts on the her without her consent.”
At that point they were arrested.
. http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/miami-football-players-arrested-sexual-battery

I have to admit that when this story broke locally, my first thought was to wonder whether people would side with the male students (after all, we all know female students are lying liars who lie after getting drunk and having sex they regret in the morning), or with the female student because themaelstrome students are black, which makes them guilty until proven innocent. Sadly, both pov's have been represented in the comments sections of various publications.

In the meantime, does anyone here have an issue with the fact that both male students have already been kicked off the football team and expelled from the university?
 
It is a tough question. No matter which stance you take on the issue, you end up either supporting some black men or a woman. The safest thing to do is to just pretend we didn't notice the thread and not respond to it. :cool:
 
In the meantime, does anyone here have an issue with the fact that both male students have already been kicked off the football team and expelled from the university?
It's been five minutes; I'm surprised that we are not already at 120 posts debating the issue. Perhaps people are away getting coffee.
 
In the meantime, does anyone here have an issue with the fact that both male students have already been kicked off the football team and expelled from the university?
It's been five minutes; I'm surprised that we are not already at 120 posts debating the issue. Perhaps people are away getting coffee.

I'm sure the thread will take off when the pro rape side shows up.
 
It is a tough question. No matter which stance you take on the issue, you end up either supporting some black men or a woman. The safest thing to do is to just pretend we didn't notice the thread and not respond to it. :cool:

Yup. Reminds me of the Trayvon Martin case. When everyone thought George Zimmerman was a white dude, it was easy to pick out the oppressor (George) and the oppressee (Trayvon). When it was revealed that George was Latino, I sorta froze and shut up for a while (no clear oppressor or oppressee). Finally, when it was determined that George had some white in him, I was able to re-side with Trayvon. I hate it when two oppressed groups clash. I have to think too much.
 
It is a tough question. No matter which stance you take on the issue, you end up either supporting some black men or a woman. The safest thing to do is to just pretend we didn't notice the thread and not respond to it. :cool:

Yup. Reminds me of the Trayvon Martin case. When everyone thought George Zimmerman was a white dude, it was easy to pick out the oppressor (George) and the oppressee (Trayvon). When it was revealed that George was Latino, I sorta froze and shut up for a while (no clear oppressor or oppressee). Finally, when it was determined that George had some white in him, I was able to re-side with Trayvon. I hate it when two oppressed groups clash. I have to think too much.

Exactly. When shades of grey are introduced into our black-and-white world, it reduces our ability to pigeonhole situations into the predefined boxes we created to advance our political agendas. Sometimes, that even leads to flickers of independent thinking which hasn't been approved by our political elites. That sort of thing has the potential to lead to dancing.
 
I would think that those with the most internal conflict about this would be those who argue for minimal evidence standards like those advocated by the Dept of Ed and used by many Universities, and those who support currently vague notions of "too drunk to consent". They would be the ones most likely to also claim racial bias against black defendants, so they would be torn between wanting the harshest punishment based on nothing but the woman's word under the assumption that no woman ever lie about being raped or are ever wrong about who raped them, but also wanting to use this as an example of racial bias.

For those who have questioned the idea that intoxication = rape or that rape accusers are never wrong and thus their claim should automatically lead to punishment, this case isn't much of a problem. This case appears to have far more evidence in support of rape than almost every college rape case that been discussed here lately, and more than 99% of "too drunk to consent" date rape cases. If sex occurred at all, its a minimum of statutory rape, and the claim is that the drugs were slipped to her without her knowledge, which is a crime in itself in contrast to voluntary intoxication of most "too drunk to consent" cases. Also, there is enough evidence for these men to have been actually arrested by the state police, in contrast to other cases under discussion where no legal action is ever taken yet the accused is harshly punished by the University because it employs standards of evidence that essentially equate an accusation with guilt.
The police statement says that after having the rights read, the defendants admitted to bringing her to their room and "performing sexual acts on the victim without her consent". So, pretty much everything you need for a rape conviction on evidential grounds, even if she wasn't intoxicated, as opposed to many of the cases under discussion in which the facts generally point to consensual sex or are at best neutral, and the intoxication is the sole grounds for the rape charge.

The students haven't been "expelled", but only suspended from the team and temporarily barred from campus. The minimal (no evidence required) standard supported by many here demands these men be barred from campus and would basically guarantee that they get expelled even if all legal charges are dropped. However, since this case has nothing in common with and far more evidence than the kind of "too drunk to consent" cases under dispute, we wouldn't even need those minimal standards of evidence defended by many here for the Universities current response to be warranted pending the outcome of the criminal charges.
 
They shouldn't be suspended or expelled simply for the allegation. They should be presumed innocent. Getting kicked off the team is a bit of a different matter, since that isn't something they paid tuition for and the team may simply be looking after its image.
 
They shouldn't be suspended or expelled simply for the allegation.

The story says the men admitted to having sex with her without her consent. But then maybe the story writer got his facts wrong or is just reporting what the police told him and we all know that, like women, police are lying liars that lie.
 
They shouldn't be suspended or expelled simply for the allegation. They should be presumed innocent. Getting kicked off the team is a bit of a different matter, since that isn't something they paid tuition for and the team may simply be looking after its image.

But it's not simply an accusation. The police examined the evidence and found that it was sufficient to arrest them for the crime. That should be the bar that the university uses to determine whether or not these students are a threat to the safety of the campus and suspend them from it. If they are then found guilty, the suspension should be turned into an expulsion.
 
And if they are innocent, should they sue the school?

No, of course not. The university should be deferring to the experts on the subject and letting the police determine whether or not there's sufficient evidence that a crime has occurred and acting based on that. This is what they did, so the only actionable cause against the school would be based on the assumption that the university administrators should have been better able to investigate the facts in a rape case than the rape investigators on the police force and figured out the students' innocence sooner. That's not an actionable case.
 
But police are not judges or juries. Just because the police see fit to arrest you, does not mean you are guilty of anything or that you deserve to be punished or denied enrollment in a course you paid tuition for. I can see why the school wouldn't want guys who are suspected of rape walking around campus. But I think the boys, if innocent, should get some kind of compensation for what has happened to them.

I feel the same way for people who get arrested and sit in jail for long periods of time while waiting for trials, that ultimately find them innocent. They should be compensated somehow.
 
But police are not judges or juries. Just because the police see fit to arrest you, does not mean you are guilty of anything or that you deserve to be punished or denied enrollment in a course you paid tuition for. I can see why the school wouldn't want guys who are suspected of rape walking around campus. But I think the boys, if innocent, should get some kind of compensation for what has happened to them.

I feel the same way for people who get arrested and sit in jail for long periods of time while waiting for trials, that ultimately find them innocent. They should be compensated somehow.

Right, but the university must weigh all that against the safety and security of all the other students on the campus. If the police feel that there's enough evidence to press charges, then that should be enough cause for the university to act and remove the students from the campus while the charges are pending.

This is the university acting correctly. If they are ultimately found not guilty, then any compensation should be received from parties who did not act correctly. If the police fucked up the investigation then they have a cause against the police. If the girl lied about the events, then they have a cause against her. If everyone did their job properly but the jury simply found that they were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then they have no cause against anybody but they can return to school.
 
But police are not judges or juries. Just because the police see fit to arrest you, does not mean you are guilty of anything or that you deserve to be punished or denied enrollment in a course you paid tuition for.
To repeat a somewhat important point, the two male students confessed. At some point you may need to consider that when talking about this case.

What seems really disturbing is that this incident seems to have been premeditated.
 
To repeat a somewhat important point, the two male students confessed. At some point you may need to consider that.

Ya, because the basis of our justice system should be trusting the word of rapists. Nice idea there, dude. :mad:
 
But police are not judges or juries. Just because the police see fit to arrest you, does not mean you are guilty of anything or that you deserve to be punished or denied enrollment in a course you paid tuition for. I can see why the school wouldn't want guys who are suspected of rape walking around campus. But I think the boys, if innocent, should get some kind of compensation for what has happened to them.

I feel the same way for people who get arrested and sit in jail for long periods of time while waiting for trials, that ultimately find them innocent. They should be compensated somehow.

Who they can/should sue depends upon who, if anyone, acted unreasonably in the case. If they confessed, then they should not be able to sue the school or anyone, even if they are not found guilty for some technicality. If the confession was fabricated by the cops, then the cops are liable and the school acted reasonably. If the women is found to have lied, then she should be sued. Given the current facts as we know them, I see no basis to sue the school even if they are found not guilty. OTOH, if this were more like some other cases we have discussed where the is no arrest because there is no evidence other than an accuser saying "We were flirting, I brought him to my room, I was drunk and don't remember the rest but woke up and knew I had sex", then the school would be acting unreasonably to suspend them and should be financially liable.

To the more general point of non-convicted detainees suing, it should also depend upon evidence of incompetence or wrongdoing on the part of the police or state. Failed convictions can happen even when everyone acts reasonably and fairly. Any compensation in such cases should be at most limited to actual loses and not include any punitive damages.
 
They shouldn't be suspended or expelled simply for the allegation. They should be presumed innocent. Getting kicked off the team is a bit of a different matter, since that isn't something they paid tuition for and the team may simply be looking after its image.

I don't think they should have been kicked off--suspend them while it's pending. Don't punish until you're sure of guilt. (Although in this case it certainly looks like they are guilty.)
 
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