3 brave officers disarm 17 year old girl by shooting her to death

[Nice Squirrel]

He should of kept her on the ground and another officer should have went for her arms, but "heat of battle" I suppose.

 

[Mageth]

He should of kept her on the ground and another officer should have went for her arms, but "heat of battle" I suppose.

IMO, he should have waited for backup before even trying to physically control/subdue her. When she indicated she had a gun/weapon when he first approached her, he should have backed way off and kept her distant until at least one other officer arrived.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

He should of kept her on the ground and another officer should have went for her arms, but "heat of battle" I suppose.

IMO, he should have waited for backup before even trying to physically control/subdue her. When she indicated she had a gun/weapon when he first approached her, he should have backed way off and kept her distant until at least one other officer arrived.

Even better.

 

[Daioh]

If you have time you can sometimes do this. If it goes down suddenly you can't.

If you have time to reach for a pistol, release the safety (I assume Police Officers don't routinely go around with the safety off) and fire then you should have plenty of time to reach for pretty much all the other non lethal weapons at your disposal

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But keep making excuses. It makes perfect sense that a small governmentarian continues to have no problem with the police killing at least over a thousand civilians a year.

I don't know where that number comes from.

But the point is correct about how those who claim to favor "small government" nevertheless often want more government in the form of cops shooting people that they dislike. Much like many opponents of abortion and supporters of military adventures.

I think it's the count of legal homicides. They're not all police shootings, though--civilian self-defense cases fall in the same basket. As do executions.

 

[ApostateAbe]

It is kinduva choice between suicide-by-cop and suicide-by-being-a-cop. Progressive thinkers just don't like cops, so they choose the latter.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A much higher resolution video than the one from the news (Warning! This version of the video actually shows her getting shot, so if you don't want to see that, stop it at around 11:08):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGIS1Knpvs0

Based on the news reporting this is what seems to have happened:

1. She indicates she has a gun.
2. Officer Derr attempts to restrain her. He eventually tackles her to the ground. At this point he realizes that while she doesn't have a gun, she does have a large butchers knife.
3. Officer Derr gets off her, putting a little distance between them, and bringing his weapon to bear.
4. Other officers arrive.
5. She rushes Derr, one of the officers fired his stun gun (claims it is ineffective), the other two open fire.

I think the key to this tragedy is point 3. Officer Derr made a serious mistake releasing her when he realized she had a close range weapon. He was in a position that would make it incredibly difficult for her to use it on him, and his retreat only put him in more danger. In other words, even if he felt he had to maintain his distance, the distance he chose was far too short. He was in much more danger now than he was on top of her. Then, when she rushed Derr, Officer Duffie used his stun gun. Now here I call bullshit on the report. Her rushing, Duffie stun gunning her, and the other officers opening fire all took place in the span of about 1 second. There is no way in hell the cops could tell the stun gun "didn't work". For all intents and purposes, they opened fire with the stun gun and their sidearms at the same time. This goes back to Officer Derr's mistake. I don't fault the officers who fired their guns in that moment, but if Derr had either stayed on top of her, or retreated to a further distance, this whole thing could have been avoided. If he had retreated farther, they wouldn't have only had a split second to react to her charge (or she might not have tried to charge).

Overall my conclusion remains unchanged from the less clear video: Officer Derr really screwed up his handling of this, and that lead directly to the situation where they were forced to open fire.

I strongly suspect he backed off because he wasn't in a position to ensure he didn't get stabbed.

Furthermore, seeing this report I strongly suspect this is a suicide by cop. She set up a situation where the cops would have little choice.

 

[Mageth]

It is kinduva choice between suicide-by-cop and suicide-by-being-a-cop. Progressive thinkers just don't like cops, so they choose the latter.

Hogwash. In many if not most such cases, there are options where no one dies. In this particular case, there are alternative scenarios where different actions could be taken and all involved would come out of the confrontation alive.

BTW, speaking for myself of course, I have no problem whatsoever with police in general. However, I do have problems when police go too far, are undertrained, are too aggressive, are too quick to resort to lethal force, and so on to the point where it results in injury or death to those that the police are supposed to protect in situations where such could have been avoided if handled properly.

 

[Mageth]

I strongly suspect he backed off because he wasn't in a position to ensure he didn't get stabbed.

See some posts above...IMO he/they could have handled the situation differently, quite possibly resulting in all coming out alive.

Furthermore, seeing this report I strongly suspect this is a suicide by cop. She set up a situation where the cops would have little choice.

She was clearly disturbed. IMO, if the police had handled this differently, they could have controlled the situation so that she could not force them to make this terrible choice. Back off, wait til the right people are there to handle a disturbed teenage girl. If she gets aggressive, be far enough back that she can't lunge, and keep moving back.

 

[Mageth]

BTW, I'm willing to bet (or hoping) that the officers involved in this tragic incident are thinking along those same lines that I've been talking about...what could I/we have done differently? I don't think any of them wanted to kill the girl, and I'm sure all of them wish that things hadn't taken such a tragic turn.

 

[ApostateAbe]

It is kinduva choice between suicide-by-cop and suicide-by-being-a-cop. Progressive thinkers just don't like cops, so they choose the latter.

Hogwash. In many if not most such cases, there are options where no one dies. In this particular case, there are alternative scenarios where different actions could be taken and all involved would come out of the confrontation alive.

BTW, speaking for myself of course, I have no problem whatsoever with police in general. However, I do have problems when police go too far, are undertrained, are too aggressive, are too quick to resort to lethal force, and so on to the point where it results in injury or death to those that the police are supposed to protect in situations where such could have been avoided if handled properly.

You would rather that the cops do some sweet jujitsu moves on the homicidal teenager with a knife, so everyone wins. I get it. Each handicap you impose on cops to defend themselves increases their odds of death. It is putting an extra bullet in their chambers of Russian Roulette. You would not follow the rules that you impose on cops, nor would you impose those rules on the lives of people that you care about. So you are comfortable imposing those rules on cops.

 

[ksen]

good lord

 

[Mageth]

Hogwash. In many if not most such cases, there are options where no one dies. In this particular case, there are alternative scenarios where different actions could be taken and all involved would come out of the confrontation alive.

BTW, speaking for myself of course, I have no problem whatsoever with police in general. However, I do have problems when police go too far, are undertrained, are too aggressive, are too quick to resort to lethal force, and so on to the point where it results in injury or death to those that the police are supposed to protect in situations where such could have been avoided if handled properly.

You would rather that the cops do some sweet jujitsu moves on the homicidal teenager with a knife, so everyone wins. I get it. Each handicap you impose on cops to defend themselves increases their odds of death. It is putting an extra bullet in their chambers of Russian Roulette. You would not follow the rules that you impose on cops, nor would you impose those rules on the lives of people that you care about. So you are comfortable imposing those rules on cops.

I see it's moved from hogwash to complete bullshit now.

I would rather that both the girl and the police had come out of this without injury or death. The same holds true for any confrontation between the police and the public. I'm sure the police officers involved would agree with me. IMO, there are ways that the police could have handled this particular situation that would have resulted in that outcome. Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

 

[Mageth]

I'm astounded that someone would equate "finding a way not to kill a disturbed teenage girl" with "imposing handicaps on cops".

 

[ApostateAbe]

You would rather that the cops do some sweet jujitsu moves on the homicidal teenager with a knife, so everyone wins. I get it. Each handicap you impose on cops to defend themselves increases their odds of death. It is putting an extra bullet in their chambers of Russian Roulette. You would not follow the rules that you impose on cops, nor would you impose those rules on the lives of people that you care about. So you are comfortable imposing those rules on cops.

I see it's moved from hogwash to complete bullshit now.

I would rather that both the girl and the police had come out of this without injury or death. The same holds true for any confrontation between the police and the public. I'm sure the police officers involved would agree with me. IMO, there are ways that the police could have handled this particular situation that would have resulted in that outcome. Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

Mageth, if the cop in question followed your trained advice and ran away, then there is a much higher probability that the girl would have knifed someone unarmed: an employee or a visitor. And, you would absolutely blame the cop that ran away for not doing his fucking job.

 

[prideandfall]

I'm astounded that someone would equate "finding a way not to kill a disturbed teenage girl" with "imposing handicaps on cops".

to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I'm astounded that someone would equate "finding a way not to kill a disturbed teenage girl" with "imposing handicaps on cops".

to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

 

[arkirk]

I don't know where that number comes from.

But the point is correct about how those who claim to favor "small government" nevertheless often want more government in the form of cops shooting people that they dislike. Much like many opponents of abortion and supporters of military adventures.

I think it's the count of legal homicides. They're not all police shootings, though--civilian self-defense cases fall in the same basket. As do executions.

That's right, Loren...make sure the murders are neatly filed in the correct BASKETS. You always seem to be saying, "Let there be order," without regard for whether or not that "order" is particularly fair.

 

[Mageth]

I see it's moved from hogwash to complete bullshit now.

I would rather that both the girl and the police had come out of this without injury or death. The same holds true for any confrontation between the police and the public. I'm sure the police officers involved would agree with me. IMO, there are ways that the police could have handled this particular situation that would have resulted in that outcome. Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

Mageth, if the cop in question followed your trained advice and ran away, then there is a much higher probability that the girl would have knifed someone unarmed: an employee or a visitor. And, you would absolutely blame the cop that ran away for not doing his fucking job.

More bullshit, I see. I did not say that the cop should "run away". And the cop's "fucking job" was to handle the situation so that no one gets killed or seriously injured, not to shoot a clearly disturbed girl. He failed at his job this time.

As I said, as a first action, he could have (and IMO should have) backed off and waited for backup before trying to control the clearly disturbed girl. Trying to subdue her by himself greatly increased the risk to both her and himself.

Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

- - - Updated - - -

to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

"Don't put yourself into a situation where you have to shoot clearly disturbed people" is a ridiculous handicap? "Train officers to handle situations in such a way that fewer civilians and officers are injured or killed" is a ridiculous handicap?

 

[ApostateAbe]

Mageth, if the cop in question followed your trained advice and ran away, then there is a much higher probability that the girl would have knifed someone unarmed: an employee or a visitor. And, you would absolutely blame the cop that ran away for not doing his fucking job.

More bullshit, I see. I did not say that the cop should "run away". And the cop's "fucking job" was to handle the situation so that no one gets killed or seriously injured, not to shoot a clearly disturbed girl. He failed at his job this time.

As I said, as a first action, he could have (and IMO should have) backed off and waited for backup before trying to control the clearly disturbed girl. Trying to subdue her by himself greatly increased the risk to both her and himself.

Is that really so fucking hard for you to understand?

- - - Updated - - -

to these sorts of people, any impediment whatsoever to cops indiscriminately murdering anyone without any consequence whatsoever is imposing handicaps on the cops and trying to destroy the moral fabric of america.

No, you are just trying to impose ridiculous handicaps on cops, not trying to destroy the moral fabric of America.

"Don't shoot clearly disturbed people" is a ridiculous handicap?

Back off how far? The more he backs off, the harder it is to hit the target and the harder it is to orient himself to shoot the target instead of a nearby bystander near the line of fire.