52 Palestinian protesters killed at border

[Loren Pechtel]

If they hadn't, there'd be a lot more dead.

Or nobody dead. It would be one or the other.

Plenty dead when they resisted being kidnapped. That's Hamas' real objective here: Kidnap Jews.

And it's perfectly legal to shoot at an invading army. The "civilians" know they are cover for a military operation, that makes them combatants.

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When even your own pictures are showing these "enemy combatants" with literal slingshots and what can only be described as a kite-turd bomb, it's hard to take you seriously.

So you need shiny modern weapons to be a threat?

Shall I peacefully drop a Molotov on you?

 

[laughing dog]

I have substantiated that the supposedly "peaceful protests" are violent riots and that "unarmed protesters" are actually armed.

No, you have not. You have presented no evidence that
1) the protests started out violent (i.e. the protests started out peacefully), and
2) that everyone killed was violent.

Now do you have any evidence that Israel is doing anything wrong whatsoever?

I was not claiming the IDF did anything wrong, I was questioning your claims of "fact". So far, all we have is the usual spin without any facts. But they killed people were no real threat to them, because isolated rock throwing is not a real threat.

If they actually protested peacefully, I am sure there would not be any dead or wounded. The Palestinians kind of did it to themselves by being violent fucks.

Wow - the triumph of bigotry over experience.

 

[Derec]

No, you have not. You have presented no evidence that
1) the protests started out violent (i.e. the protests started out peacefully), and

They did not start out peacefully. On the very first day there was violence. Note, most of the dead on 3/30, first day of the so-called "Return March" were members of terrorist organizations, mostly Hamas.
IDF: At least 10 of the 15 killed at Gaza border were members of terror groups

2) that everyone killed was violent.

Do I know that for a fact? Of course not. But I see no reason to doubt that vast majority of the dead and wounded are violent. Do you have any reason to think otherwise?

I was not claiming the IDF did anything wrong, I was questioning your claims of "fact". So far, all we have is the usual spin without any facts. But they killed people were no real threat to them, because isolated rock throwing is not a real threat.

It's not isolated, it's widespread. And these slings and even more the giant slingshots can be a real threat. Not as effective as firearms but hardly harmless.

As to the facts, I have followed this "Great March" farce since the beginning, 3/30. Most of the week was always relatively calm, with large scale riots every Friday and now yesterday and presumably today (Hamas promises even more violence) because of the Embassy and "Nakba" Day.
It's always the same. Gazans burn tires (releasing plumes of toxic smoke), launch stones and Molotov cocktails, send blazing kites. The rocks and Molotiovs are basically suppressive fire for the border fence cutting and infiltrating teams.
Gaza ‘fence cutter unit’ vows to breach border, retake ‘occupied lands’
The blazing kites are for setting things (mostly cropland so far) on fire.
Burning Kites From Gaza Start Fires in Israeli Fields
Speaking of fires, the "peaceful and unarmed protesters" also set the Palestinian side of the Karem Shalom crossing on fire, through which Gaza gets a most supplies, including fuel.
Gaza faces fuel, gas shortage after vandals trash crossing

It is the grand total of everything that has happened at the Gaza border in the last six weeks that paints a pretty clear picture here.

Wow - the triumph of bigotry over experience.

If you are talking about Gazans you are not very far off.

 

[Derec]

When even your own pictures are showing these "enemy combatants" with literal slingshots and what can only be described as a kite-turd bomb, it's hard to take you seriously.

The weapons these rioters use may be crude, but that does not make them harmless.
The first photo shows two "unarmed and peaceful protesters" swing what is called a shepherd's sling, which is capable of launching projectiles at speeds capable of serious injury and even death. They were used in antiquity as weapons, both for combat and for hunting. This is not a toy a child might use to shoot small birds and such - it's a real weapon!
The large slingshot that requires several men to operate in the second photo is even more powerful. You have a long Δx and a stiff rubber band (requiring several people to pull), which means a lot of elastic potential energy.
And the blazing kites have unfortunately caused a number of fires in Israel. Arson is not peaceful protesting!

 

[Morgan]

When even your own pictures are showing these "enemy combatants" with literal slingshots and what can only be described as a kite-turd bomb, it's hard to take you seriously.

The weapons these rioters use may be crude, but that does not make them harmless.
The first photo shows two "unarmed and peaceful protesters" swing what is called a shepherd's sling, which is capable of launching projectiles at speeds capable of serious injury and even death. They were used in antiquity as weapons, both for combat and for hunting. This is not a toy a child might use to shoot small birds and such - it's a real weapon!
The large slingshot that requires several men to operate in the second photo is even more powerful. You have a long Δx and a stiff rubber band (requiring several people to pull), which means a lot of elastic potential energy.
And the blazing kites have unfortunately caused a number of fires in Israel. Arson is not peaceful protesting!

Yes, especially when you have 40000 of them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/u-s-embassy-gaza-protests-and-nakba-day-live-updates-1.6078190

Well, when you don't have any valid counterarguments to offer, the best thing to do is to abandon free speech and start killing protesters.

You mean, when you don't have any valid arguments to offer, urge people to try to storm the border?

These are not protesters. They are violent combatants.

When even your own pictures are showing these "enemy combatants" with literal slingshots and what can only be described as a kite-turd bomb, it's hard to take you seriously.

This does help explain the sniper comment from Israel. I had no idea how snipers would be used in such a situation.

There are a couple things I noticed in the photos:
- There are people trying to do harm
- There aren't a lot of people trying to do harm

Notice how these images seem to only show a few people in them. The first photo is taken well back from the fence as well... and I don't see anyone next to the fence in that image. So yes, people are shown in here trying to do something criminal, but I think the word used by either Germany or France was "proportional" force in response. A sniper should be shooting a person with a gun or launcher targeting the IDF, not some people tying a small fire to a kite. They got a sling... shot the sling.

 

[laughing dog]

They did not start out peacefully. On the very first day there was violence.

Non-responsive. Who started the violence.

Note, most of the dead on 3/30, first day of the so-called "Return March" were members of terrorist organizations, mostly Hamas.

That does not mean that 1) they started the violence, and 2) that they necessarily participated in the violence.

Do I know that for a fact? Of course not. But I see no reason to doubt that vast majority of the dead and wounded are violent.

Of course you don't.

Do you have any reason to think otherwise?

I prefer actually facts to bigoted conclusions.

It's not isolated, it's widespread. And these slings and even more the giant slingshots can be a real threat. Not as effective as firearms but hardly harmless.

From your posting history, your view of a "real" threat is pretty silly.

If you are talking about Gazans you are not very far off.

Perhaps, but I was right on target with my observation about some non-Gazans.

 

[Elixir]

Non-responsive. Who started the violence.
That does not mean that 1) they started the violence, and 2) that they necessarily participated in the violence.

Do I know that for a fact? Of course not. But I see no reason to doubt that vast majority of the dead and wounded are violent.

Of course you don't.

Do you have any reason to think otherwise?

I prefer actually facts to bigoted conclusions.

It's not isolated, it's widespread. And these slings and even more the giant slingshots can be a real threat. Not as effective as firearms but hardly harmless.

From your posting history, your view of a "real" threat is pretty silly.

If you are talking about Gazans you are not very far off.

Perhaps, but I was right on target with my observation about some non-Gazans.

It's hard to imagine the hissy fits that would be thrown by the alt-right, if police or military opened fire on large groups of neo-nazis slinging rocks...

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

When power is this unbalanced and when Israel is allowing settlement incursions, and firing at and killing Palestinians without due regard for their lives, it is hard to blame the Palestinians people here.

It's hard to imagine the hissy fits that would be thrown by the alt-right, if police or military opened fire on large groups of neo-nazis slinging rocks...

Exactly.

 

[laughing dog]

I think what people miss is that there is sufficient responsibility on all sides here. There is no unilateral blame on _____ (fill in the blank). And there is no excuse for violence by anyone here - neither to initiate it or to react in disproportionate force.

Yes, the Palestinian people have gotten a raw deal. Yes, some of it is due to their behavior and policies. While that may explain the situation, it does not excuse their violence.

Yes, the Israelis are threatened. But while that may explain their behavior, it does not excuse their reactions and policies that have worked to exacerbate those threats.

In these situations, I do not trust reports that either come directly from official Israeli or Palestinian sources or heavily depend on official sources from either side.

 

[Derec]

Non-responsive. Who started the violence.

Hamas.

That does not mean that 1) they started the violence, and 2) that they necessarily participated in the violence.

No, of course not. Members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (the terrorist wing of Hamas) are known to be peaceful. In fact, their nickname is "Ghandis".

I prefer actually facts to bigoted conclusions.

It's not bigotry but knowing who you are dealing with. For example, Hamas actually opened fire at IDF yesterday.

Troops belonging to the IDF’s Maglan unit stationed themselves opposite the expected attack point in the northern Gaza Strip. When the squad of eight terrorists emerged from amidst the violent demonstration which was taking place, two armored IDF vehicles drove over the fence and were attacked by the cell with explosives and light weapons.
According to the army the cell fired at troops from two different locations, one from a hill some 200 meters from the security fence and another point some 30 meters from the border.
Troops then engaged the cell, opening fire at them from Israeli territory while a tank and IAF aircraft struck the terrorists' position. All eight terrorists were killed in the exchange of gunfire.

IDF releases details of how it prevented a Hamas border crossing from Gaza
And Hamas terrorists crossed over into Israel just a few days ago.
IDF says it killed three terrorists infiltrating from Gaza
There have been numerous such incidents as part of this "unarmed and peaceful" march.

From your posting history, your view of a "real" threat is pretty silly.

From your posting history, I can see why you would erroneously think that.

By the way, even though today was supposed to be the climax of the "unarmed and peaceful" Great March of Return, it seems to have fizzled compared with yesterday.

 

[steve_bank]

No question it was an excessive use of force by Israel.

However there are reports Hamas was using bullhorns to get people close to the border as possible. Above and beyond legitimate grievance by Palestinians, Iran is funding provocation looking for an Israeli large scale massacre of Palestinians. There is no doubt about that either.

It is tragic, but the issues are not black and white.

Whatever your vuew on Israel, Iran backed Hamas is a terror organization dedicated to destruction of Jews and Israel. It is not just Iranian rhetoric's. Hamas and Fatah both will never allow any democratic system that disenfranchises them. It is that more than anything else that makes a Palestinian state impossible.

People are probably not conscious of the fact that Palestinians fought a civil war with Jordan who had annexed the west bank, and a civil war between Hamas and Fatah having nothing to do with Israel.

The Palestinians are pawns for Iran, Hamas, and Fatah. That is the main source of violence.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas.

Provide the evidence.

No, of course not. Members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (the terrorist wing of Hamas) are known to be peaceful. In fact, their nickname is "Ghandis".

The fact that they are terrorists does not necessarily mean that they were participating in violent activity this time. That is called reason. While I think it highly probable they were violent, that is not evidence that they were. I can understand that you believe they were violent and that you may have reasons (good or bad) for your belief, your belief that they were, in fact, violent does make it so.

It's not bigotry but knowing who you are dealing with. For example, Hamas actually opened fire at IDF yesterday.....

That is according to the IDF, hardly a disinterested source.

From your posting history, I can see why you would erroneously think that.

I don't routinely argue that cellphones or flashes of metal are real threats - you do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, you have not. You have presented no evidence that
1) the protests started out violent (i.e. the protests started out peacefully), and
2) that everyone killed was violent.

The whole thing started out as a military action by Hamas.

And while we don't know if everyone involved is violent we do know that it's been consistently running about 80% of the dead are known terrorists or working with the terrorists. Since they aren't wearing uniforms they must have been targeted based on their actions.

And note that under international law everyone involved is a valid target--they have to know they are part of a military operation. Bearing arms is not required to be a combatant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are a couple things I noticed in the photos:
- There are people trying to do harm
- There aren't a lot of people trying to do harm

And the number dead is a tiny percent of the total number of participants. Doesn't that suggest it's the violent ones being targeted?

Notice how these images seem to only show a few people in them. The first photo is taken well back from the fence as well... and I don't see anyone next to the fence in that image. So yes, people are shown in here trying to do something criminal, but I think the word used by either Germany or France was "proportional" force in response. A sniper should be shooting a person with a gun or launcher targeting the IDF, not some people tying a small fire to a kite. They got a sling... shot the sling.

Proportional--lethal force is met with lethal force. The weapons we are seeing are potentially lethal.

As for tying a fire to a kite--arson of an inhabited structure is one of those crimes you can respond to with lethal force. And note that Europe has no problem with calling firebombs terrorism when they're the victims.

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When power is this unbalanced and when Israel is allowing settlement incursions, and firing at and killing Palestinians without due regard for their lives, it is hard to blame the Palestinians people here.

It's hard to imagine the hissy fits that would be thrown by the alt-right, if police or military opened fire on large groups of neo-nazis slinging rocks...

Exactly.

When you make assumptions that aren't based in reality you can come up with all sorts of conclusions that aren't based in reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In these situations, I do not trust reports that either come directly from official Israeli or Palestinian sources or heavily depend on official sources from either side.

Then you're pretty much stuck. Any reporter who wants to function over there has to toe the Hamas line. They aren't remotely independent.

That means the only independent reports you get are the occasional reporter who isn't going back and thus tells the truth and those are never at the time, only when the reporter is safely out of the area.

 

[laughing dog]

When you make assumptions that aren't based in reality you can come up with all sorts of conclusions that aren't based in reality.

Man, getting my irony meter fixed is getting expensive, especially when it is blown to smithereens.

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In these situations, I do not trust reports that either come directly from official Israeli or Palestinian sources or heavily depend on official sources from either side.

Then you're pretty much stuck. Any reporter who wants to function over there has to toe the Hamas line. They aren't remotely independent.

When you make assumptions that aren't based in reality you can come up with all sorts of conclusions that aren't based in reality.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And the number dead is a tiny percent of the total number of participants. Doesn't that suggest it's the violent ones being targeted?



Proportional--lethal force is met with lethal force. The weapons we are seeing are potentially lethal.

As for tying a fire to a kite--arson of an inhabited structure is one of those crimes you can respond to with lethal force. And note that Europe has no problem with calling firebombs terrorism when they're the victims.

- - - Updated - - -

When power is this unbalanced and when Israel is allowing settlement incursions, and firing at and killing Palestinians without due regard for their lives, it is hard to blame the Palestinians people here.

It's hard to imagine the hissy fits that would be thrown by the alt-right, if police or military opened fire on large groups of neo-nazis slinging rocks...

Exactly.

When you make assumptions that aren't based in reality you can come up with all sorts of conclusions that aren't based in reality.

This is why I don’t carry my irony meter in my pocket.

 

[Jayjay]

And the violence suddenly stopped. According to Haaretz:

Like with a push of a button, and certainly on orders from on high, almost all of the weapons fire on the border with the Gaza Strip was halted on Tuesday. Only a day earlier, 58 Palestinians were killed and thousands wounded from Israeli army gunfire, on the bloodiest day on the Gaza border since the 2014 war that Israel fought with Hamas. On Tuesday, the violence was substantially curbed as a matter of decision.

(...)

The Palestinian demonstrators made no real attempt to cross the fence and the Israeli army, accordingly, refrained as a rule from using live fire. (...)

The sharp turn taken by Hamas proves what had been apparent during the course of the past seven weeks: The leadership of the organization headed by Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh has full control over what happens in Gaza. It has been encouraging the masses to come to the border fence and is overseeing the intensity of the violence at the demonstrations. It is the Hamas leadership that has been deciding to refrain from rocket fire at Israel despite the many deaths of prior weeks. And it is the leadership that is capable of now applying the brakes, despite Monday’s massive bloodletting.

When tempers calm in the future, it will no longer be possible to accept the intelligence explanation that the Israeli army and Shin Bet security service have been providing over the past three years, every time that rockets have been fired from Gaza, that Hamas was having difficulty restraining the smaller Salafi groups there. It has been made very clear that Gaza is quiet when that’s what Hamas wants, and when it has an interest in the other direction, the violence increases.

This sudden drop in violence confirms two facts that should have been obvious all along:

1) Hamas decides the level of violence used in the protests, and the deaths are due to their decision, not happenstance or inability to control the extremists.

2) Israel responds to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, as is their long-standing policy.

All in all, the six-week protests were mostly a failure to Hamas. They failed to breach the fence, they failed to stop or delay the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, and the international community is lukewarm at best responding to the death toll. Maybe if they had curbed the violence from the start and set themselves more reasonable goals, for example reclaiming part of the no-mans's land, the outcome could have been different.

 

[Arctish]

And the violence suddenly stopped. According to Haaretz:

Like with a push of a button, and certainly on orders from on high, almost all of the weapons fire on the border with the Gaza Strip was halted on Tuesday. Only a day earlier, 58 Palestinians were killed and thousands wounded from Israeli army gunfire, on the bloodiest day on the Gaza border since the 2014 war that Israel fought with Hamas. On Tuesday, the violence was substantially curbed as a matter of decision.

(...)

The Palestinian demonstrators made no real attempt to cross the fence and the Israeli army, accordingly, refrained as a rule from using live fire. (...)

The sharp turn taken by Hamas proves what had been apparent during the course of the past seven weeks: The leadership of the organization headed by Yahya Sinwar and Ismail Haniyeh has full control over what happens in Gaza. It has been encouraging the masses to come to the border fence and is overseeing the intensity of the violence at the demonstrations. It is the Hamas leadership that has been deciding to refrain from rocket fire at Israel despite the many deaths of prior weeks. And it is the leadership that is capable of now applying the brakes, despite Monday’s massive bloodletting.

When tempers calm in the future, it will no longer be possible to accept the intelligence explanation that the Israeli army and Shin Bet security service have been providing over the past three years, every time that rockets have been fired from Gaza, that Hamas was having difficulty restraining the smaller Salafi groups there. It has been made very clear that Gaza is quiet when that’s what Hamas wants, and when it has an interest in the other direction, the violence increases.

This sudden drop in violence confirms two facts that should have been obvious all along:

1) Hamas decides the level of violence used in the protests, and the deaths are due to their decision, not happenstance or inability to control the extremists.

2) Israel responds to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, as is their long-standing policy.

Except when it doesn't. Remember that year long ceasefire when Hamas first came to power in Gaza that was broken when Israel sent in a strike team that killed about a half dozen Gazans? Remember when the IDF kidnapped those two guys in Lebanon and when Hezbollah grabbed Israeli soldiers in response Israel went berserk and started a war? Remember when Israel sent undercover cops to join the peaceful demonstrations in the West Bank, and the undercover guys threw rocks so the IDF could use force on the Palestinians?

All in all, the six-week protests were mostly a failure to Hamas. They failed to breach the fence, they failed to stop or delay the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, and the international community is lukewarm at best responding to the death toll. Maybe if they had curbed the violence from the start and set themselves more reasonable goals, for example reclaiming part of the no-mans's land, the outcome could have been different.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?