6:00pm Curfew for men

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

Right. A very small percentage of the population commits most of the crime; and that small percentage is usually repeat offenders. All the more important that we properly fund police to arrest these offenders. Also important that the justice system properly punish these offenders and keep them away from the general populace. But in the UK . . .

'How can we say justice has been served?' Fury as 'black cab rapist' John Worboys who 'attacked over 100 women' is to be FREED from jail after serving just 'six weeks per victim'

Eleven and a half years in jail doesn't seem like a ridiculously light sentence.

I am not going to give the Daily Mail my click, but based on those figures, that's what "just" six weeks per victim multiplied by 100 victims implies. Of course "more than 100" could imply a rather longer sentence than eleven and a half years.

Dividing a criminal sentence by the number of victims to make it seem like it was trivial is an excellent example of biased reporting, so your link does at least serve the purpose of illustrating why the Daily Mail is unworthy of any sane person's attention.

Doing a little search, he was convicted in 2009 for attacks against 12 women. Attacks included drugging, assaulting, and rape, though rape was only regarding one of the women. It is estimated he might have molested over 100.

Seems the most damning part of the story was the police's failure to actually investigate.

 

[TSwizzle]

Right. A very small percentage of the population commits most of the crime; and that small percentage is usually repeat offenders. All the more important that we properly fund police to arrest these offenders. Also important that the justice system properly punish these offenders and keep them away from the general populace. But in the UK . . .

'How can we say justice has been served?' Fury as 'black cab rapist' John Worboys who 'attacked over 100 women' is to be FREED from jail after serving just 'six weeks per victim'

Not a good example as Worboys received two life sentences after more victims came forward. But generally a rape sentence in the UK is about eight years and I think the convicted can be considered for parole after serving a third of their sentence which is pretty poor.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Bullshit. Society allows men and boys to rape girls and women and finds excuses to blame it on the women. As you do here.

Why do you do that?
Do you not realize that the accusations you make have no relation whatsoever (not even a remote one) to the posts for which you accuse Metaphor and me?

I do not know who "society" is, but clearly Metaphor is not finding excuses or blaming women when men or boys rape them. I would suggest that you read the posts, with the intent of understanding their content, rather than with the intent of condemning the men in this thread who disagree with your views.

If you do not know who society is, why are you posting in this thread?

That does not answer my question, and it is also an odd question. What would my reasons for being in this thread be related to whether I understand that particular word you use?

Anyway, I do not need to know what you mean by every word to post. When I find a word that I do not know what you mean by, I say so and I address what I do know what you mean by. But I do ask you because in this context, "society" is an ambiguous word that might be use to accuse people without identifying the targets.

As for why I am in this thread, recently mostly to defend myself (and others too) against false and unwarranted allegations that I said or implied things I did not say or imply. But originally, I was commenting on some of the matters being discussed involving this curfew for men, in particular the race parallel and some of your questions.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Yeah, he is.

And you are, too. It is perfectly acceptable to you that girls and women bear an extra burden. So that men don't have to inconvenience themselves enough to model respectful behavior towards women, to show that they are valued as fully as are men.

Because you don't.

No, that is not at all what I am saying, as a reader can see in my posts. There is nothing acceptable with the behavior of rapists, murderers, or for that matter robbers that restrict the freedom of other people, including both men and women. What you say has nothing to do with what I am saying, or what Metaphor is saying. There are risks that one should rationally take into consideration; whether has a moral obligation is another matter, and depends on the circumstances.

Assuming for the sake of the argument that those risks are higher for women, then they should take precautions that it is not the case men should take, and again given that assumption, if a woman asked me why she should take more precautions I would answer that that's because she is at a greater risk. In reality, the risks depend on the situation of each person. Sometimes, a woman faces greater risks than a man. Sometimes, it is the other way around (e.g., if the woman lives in a safe neighbourhood and the man in a dangerous one).

I grew up in a very safe neighborhood. I raised my children in a very safe neighborhood.

I was sexually assaulted. My daughter was sexually assaulted. I lost track long ago of the number of women and girls I know who were sexually assaulted.

My sons have never been assaulted or otherwise victims of violent crime. Exactly ONE of their friends was mugged on a street. One. That's it for victimization by violent crime.

Sorry to hear about you and your daughter. My personal experience is very different, but in any case, statistics show that males are victims of violent crime considerably more often than females. Even so, one should be careful in assessing that piece of evidence. Is it because males really are at greater risk on average, all other things equal? Or is it because not all other things are equal, and males are failing to restrict their activities in response to dangerous criminals to a much greater extent than females are? Is the difference due to the criminals's being more inclined to attack males, or is it because females take more precautions in how they behave, while males tend to take more risks, so the criminals have more opportunities to attack them successfully?

At any rate, I would say that, as a matter of rationality, both males and females should take precautions, in a manner that depends on the their own goals and the threat. And as a matter of morality, sometimes they should as well. But none of them has to do with the blame for the actions of the violent criminals, who of course falls entirely on the violent criminals themselves, regardless of whether their victims acted irrationally and/or unethically by taking too much of a risk.

One thing the accusations of "victim blaming" nearly always miss is the distinction between the actions of the victim and those of the perpetrators. There isn't a certain fixed amount of blame that one might distribute between the victim and the perpetrator, say from 0% to the victim and 100% to the perpetrator to the 100% to the victim and 0% to the perpetrator. Rather, there are two actions, one by the victim, one by the perpetrators. The perpetrators are 100% to blame for their action, again regardless of whether there is some blame that the victim deserve for her or his.

Another thing they almost always miss is the distinction between irrational and immoral behavior; saying the victim incurred the former does not imply saying it incurred the latter (though some philosphers disagree with this second distinction).


ETA: by the way, if it is true that females are at greater risk of being attacked all other things equal, then of course they should take greater precautions all other things equal (i.e., given equal value to their own self-preservation), as a matter of rationality. This is all on average, though. Individual males can be at a much greater risk, and so they should take much greater precautions all other things equal, etc.

 

[Rhea]

My personal experience is very different, but in any case, statistics show that males are victims of violent crime considerably more often than females.

Oh?

Number of violent crime victims in the United States, by gender 2005-2019
Published by Statista Research Department, Sep 15, 2020
In 2019, the number of male and female violent crime victims was about even, with about 1,579,530 male victims and 1,479,540 female victims. In a disturbing trend, however, the number of male violent crime victims in the U.S. has decreased since 2005, but the number of female victims has been increasing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Arguementum ad exemplum is a fallacy. And why is sexual assault the only kind of assault that matters to you? 'When you consider all violent crime, men are victimized much more frequently than women.
View attachment 32343

The problem with this is most male victims are concentrated amongst the poor and the criminals. Sexual violence is far more evenly distributed and thus much more of an issue to someone in the middle class.

Bull fucking shit. Society has made women safer than they've ever been, and if it were not for society, the violence against women would be far higher than it is. Nobody would be keeping violent males in check.

Just because they're safer now than they were doesn't mean there isn't an issue. The problem is the feminist "solutions" are laughable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Both of these are inherent in biology.

A male runner likely has nothing of value to a criminal--keys require identifying what they are a key to which will be a severe limit on their value. A female runner, however, inherently has something of considerable value to certain criminals.

This has a feel of simply handwaving the crime as being committed simply by a "criminal" not a human being. Crimes of rape and by incels are often about power and control over women, a sense of male entitlement or dominance or worse. We tell our daughters that this shit is a fait accompli, be prepared.

Why do we tell out daughters this? Why aren't our sons taught that this shit shouldn't be a fait accompli?

Crimes by psychopaths are one thing. Their minds are operating with different programming, but we have plenty of cases (way too many, vast majority?) of mentally competent males committing crimes that we tell our daughters that 'this is just a thing you have to deal with'.

With the invention of the Internet, incels have been able to coddle each other and convince themselves of the nastiness and vile mindset of women. Many of them just stop there, but a few go on and commit heinous acts. But the discussion always goes back the daughters, sorry honey, but you might get run over by a car driven by a male that thinks women are evil. Why aren't we talking to the boys?

The point is that it's not a problem that can realistically be solved short of surveillance tech that a rapist can't defeat.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

My personal experience is very different, but in any case, statistics show that males are victims of violent crime considerably more often than females.

Oh?

Number of violent crime victims in the United States, by gender 2005-2019
Published by Statista Research Department, Sep 15, 2020
In 2019, the number of male and female violent crime victims was about even, with about 1,579,530 male victims and 1,479,540 female victims. In a disturbing trend, however, the number of male violent crime victims in the U.S. has decreased since 2005, but the number of female victims has been increasing.

Hmm...that seems very different from the previous chart posted in the thread. So, let's go with your data and say it's about even in the US (I do not think the claim about the trend is supported by their data, by the way. Rather, there was a massive drop from 2005 to 2006, which seems to be an anomaly of some kind in 2005, rather than a trend. I was unable to take a closer look, though, because after the first time I went to the website, a paywall appeared. I guess it's one of those '1 free article' things). It is not evenly distributed though: there are big differences in the type of crime and the relationship between criminal and victim.

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=955

Males experienced higher victimization rates than females for all types of violent crime except rape/sexual assault. Females age 12 or older experienced about 552,000 nonfatal violent victimizations (rape/sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated or simple assault) by an intimate partner (a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend).
Black females historically have experienced intimate partner violence at rates higher than white females.
The rate of intimate partner victimizations for females was 4.3 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older. The equivalent rate of intimate partner violence against males was 0.8 victimizations per 1,000 males age 12 or older.
Hispanic and non-Hispanic females experienced intimate partner violence at about the same rates (4.1 per 1,000 females age 12 or older versus 4.3 per 1,000, respectively).

But do you want to discuss any point in particular?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be. You are interpreting Loren's statement that the cause of the behavior is biological, as a justification. As if that makes it ok and that we shouldn't do anything about it. I don't think that's what Loren is saying.

We can teach our sons not to rape all we want. But we'll be deluded if we think that's good enough, or if that alone will fix it.

Exactly.

I don't think incels are the problem. According to rape statistics pretty much all rape is committed by somebody the woman already knows. It's somebody in her own inner circle already. Isn't the whole thing about incels that they never get that close to women? Or have I misunderstood what an incel is?

Yeah, this sucks for women. I wish there was a way to create a world where women didn't need to be careful. But unless you have a method that works, it's just wishful thinking.

I think your "pretty much all" is going too far. The stats seem to say 70% in the US.

 

[Toni]

Are we? Got specifics?

One assessment says 1 in 6 women suffer from an attempted or completed rape, even if this is off by half a magnitude, that tiny percentage of men get around! I get this feeling women are experiencing one thing, and guys are seeing something completely different. Man and woman walking out of movie theater.

Woman: That was a great comedy.
Man: Yeah, I love race car movies.
Woman: *wah?*

Women are complaining, a lot about this.

Women: Sexual harassment and assault is much more prevalent than you think!
Men: Naw... it's just a small percentage of men.
Women: *wah?*

Heck, you even said all men are capable of rape, but then simplified it to a tiny percentage commit it.

I don't think talking to boys more about it will bring down rape numbers one iota.

You haven't even established that they are being talked to enough about it. When these things happen, it is all about what can women do to make themselves safer. Not what can be done to reduce attempted assaults.

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

It doesn't follow the same pattern as most other violent crime.

 

[J842P]

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

It doesn't follow the same pattern as most other violent crime.

Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

 

[Toni]

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't be. You are interpreting Loren's statement that the cause of the behavior is biological, as a justification. As if that makes it ok and that we shouldn't do anything about it. I don't think that's what Loren is saying.

We can teach our sons not to rape all we want. But we'll be deluded if we think that's good enough, or if that alone will fix it.

Exactly.

I don't think incels are the problem. According to rape statistics pretty much all rape is committed by somebody the woman already knows. It's somebody in her own inner circle already. Isn't the whole thing about incels that they never get that close to women? Or have I misunderstood what an incel is?

Yeah, this sucks for women. I wish there was a way to create a world where women didn't need to be careful. But unless you have a method that works, it's just wishful thinking.

I think your "pretty much all" is going too far. The stats seem to say 70% in the US.

No idea where you are getting your 70% stat. It would help if you would provide a link so we can see what you mean.

Here's what I found: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker

About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date.

Here is a more complete breakdown in this link:
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/sexual-ass...rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault.
Rennison 2000.
Only 28% (estimated) of rape/sexual assault victimizations are reported to law enforcement officials.
Rennison 2000.
One in four girls, and one in six boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18.
FinKelhor, et. al., 1990.
38% of acquaintance rape victims are 14-17 years old.
Warshaw, 1988.
90% of rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Exactly.



I think your "pretty much all" is going too far. The stats seem to say 70% in the US.

No idea where you are getting your 70% stat. It would help if you would provide a link so we can see what you mean.

Here's what I found: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker

About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date.

Here is a more complete breakdown in this link:
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/sexual-ass...rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault.
Rennison 2000.
Only 28% (estimated) of rape/sexual assault victimizations are reported to law enforcement officials.
Rennison 2000.
One in four girls, and one in six boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18.
FinKelhor, et. al., 1990.
38% of acquaintance rape victims are 14-17 years old.
Warshaw, 1988.
90% of rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

 

[Toni]

No idea where you are getting your 70% stat. It would help if you would provide a link so we can see what you mean.

Here's what I found: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker


Here is a more complete breakdown in this link:
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/sexual-ass...rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault.
Rennison 2000.
Only 28% (estimated) of rape/sexual assault victimizations are reported to law enforcement officials.
Rennison 2000.
One in four girls, and one in six boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18.
FinKelhor, et. al., 1990.
38% of acquaintance rape victims are 14-17 years old.
Warshaw, 1988.
90% of rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Exactly.



I think your "pretty much all" is going too far. The stats seem to say 70% in the US.

No idea where you are getting your 70% stat. It would help if you would provide a link so we can see what you mean.

Here's what I found: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker

About 85 to 90 percent of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone known to the victim; about half occur on a date.

Here is a more complete breakdown in this link:
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/sexual-ass...rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault.
Rennison 2000.
Only 28% (estimated) of rape/sexual assault victimizations are reported to law enforcement officials.
Rennison 2000.
One in four girls, and one in six boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18.
FinKelhor, et. al., 1990.
38% of acquaintance rape victims are 14-17 years old.
Warshaw, 1988.
90% of rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

You're not sure where I got my stat and then you present exactly the same stat as a rebuttal??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

You are singling out one demographic, I did not.

 

[Derec]

I was not successful in my attempt to include the table so I will just provide the link. Women are more likely to be victims of violent crime compared with men, excluding simple assault.

According to your link, the authors considered only "rape or sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault". So no homicides either, and maybe some other categories as well. In other words, the authors massaged their definition of "violent crime" until they got the result they wanted - more females than males in the data set. Probably, just like with you, for ideological reasons. You see violence against women as mattering far more than violence against men, when it should matter equally.

 

[Derec]

Bullshit. Rape and sexual assault are the only crimes where the victim is routinely blamed for her assault.

Not true. But it is right to be skeptical of claims when there is no evidence. And most sexual assault and rape claims are "he said she said" and thus cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Rape and sexual assault are crimes which occur at any age, across all socioeconomic settings,

Thank you Cpt. Obvious.

You could start by not equating women with children.

I am not. People who think women deserve special protection because they are women do.

The women and children first has never actually been practiced, outside of movies and novels.

It has been practiced on ships. That's why 72% of female Titanic passengers survived but only 16% of male passengers.

Opening doors? I'm probably a lot more likely to open a door for a man than you are for a woman.

How so? And I am not talking about friendly holding the door open for somebody walking behind you.
I am talking the bullshit women expect guys to do: walking around the whole car, opening her door and walking around the whole car, just so the woman doesn't have to sully herself opening her own damn door.

If this was me, I would just have kept driving. She may be hot, but she is also very entitled.

Door opening is common curtesy for anyone whose arms are occupied with child, packages, walker, cane, books, etc.

Or just a light purse and about 20 metric tons of pure female privilege like Meagan Good's character.

Seriously, nobody is talking here about common courtesy, but about the chivalrous bullshit of having to open doors or pull out chairs for women and other stuff like that.

But WHICH men are more likely to be victimized by violent crime? And by whom?

Does it matter? You don't think violence against men matters as much as violence against women because you are a radical feminist. Didn't you also defend that woman who brutally murdered her husband in his sleep but only got 60 days in jail?

 

[Derec]

Because the perpetrators of violence against men and boys are largely other men and boys.

What does that matter? Here you do what leftists generally do: see people only as fungible ciphers for different groups (men/women, whites/blacks/etc., gay/straight) and not as individuals. Violence against an individual should matter whether they share gender, race and so on with their assailant or not.

I don't know about Sweden but in the US, male prostitutes are fairly often minors. This makes them rape victims.

Even if they are minors, it does not necessarily mean that they are "rape victims". A minor can still make a choice to sell sex without being forced into it by anybody.
Now to clarify: I do not think sex work by minors should be allowed, but there is a difference between something not being allowed for protection of said minors, and pretending that minors are incapable of making choices and thus pretending them making an illegal choice is somehow the same as "rape".

It's almost as though we realize that violence against prostitutes will continue, whether prostitution is legal or not. Maybe because we can read studies that show this to be the fact.

Prohibition is not stopping violence against sex workers either. Prohibition did not stop that piece of shit in Georgia from shooting up all those KAMPs.

So why are you so adamant about denying people agency and personal freedoms to engage in consensual sex for money?
In aggregate, prohibition of sex work, just like prohibition of alcohol or weed, does far more harm than good. In addition to that, it is objectionable on basic grounds that in a free society, individual liberty should be respected unless there is a good reason to abridge it and it should be abridged to the least extent feasible.

 

[Toni]

Well, if rape follows the same pattern as most other violent crime, then yeah, the majority of crime is committed by a small population.

It doesn't follow the same pattern as most other violent crime.

Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

Yes.

This is a very lengthy report but it highlights the different patterns throughout the US:

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/196196NCJRS.pdf

Also here:
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/spcvt.pdf

For violent victimizations, seasonal patterns also vary
depending on the type of crime. Rape and sexual assault
rates and aggravated assault rates are higher in the summer
than in most other seasons. In comparison, simple assault
rates are higher in the fall than in other seasons, and robbery
victimization rates show no seasonal patterns. Intimate
partner violence exhibits regular seasonal fluctuations with
rates highest during the summer and lowest during the
winter. Rates of violence involving weapons and violence
resulting in serious injury are higher in the summer than in
the winter and spring seasons; however, the fall rates are not
significantly different from the summer rates.

You can read more here: https://us.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-assets/78467_book_item_78467.pdf