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75 year old chess tutor fights off knife wielding man intent on killing children

Derec, what possible justification do you have for posting the photo of a (completely non-involved) black man in this thread?
I would assume that he posted it because a google search for "Dustin Brown" images shows both the first image which is likely the person the article is about and the other. Both are apparently Dustin Browns. As Derec said, it is a bit of an unfortunate name. Plus it would be really noteworthy if that 75 year old had taken on the second Dustin Brown rather than the first Dustin Brown.
 
Derec, what possible justification do you have for posting the photo of a (completely non-involved) black man in this thread?
I would assume that he posted it because a google search for "Dustin Brown" images shows both the first image which is likely the person the article is about and the other. Both are apparently Dustin Browns. As Derec said, it is a bit of an unfortunate name. Plus it would be really noteworthy if that 75 year old had taken on the second Dustin Brown rather than the first Dustin Brown.

Uh huh...

Then why didn't Derec post a photo of Dustin Brown the hockey player or any of the other people that share the name?
 
I swear I am against conscription, and war in general and killing in general, but reading these threads full of blood lust and wannabe cowboys who are so so so certain that what is really needed is more guns to kill more people, especially scary people like brown people and mentally ill people, I swear I think that a whole bunch of posters really need to spend some time in a war zone and find out what it actually means to kill someone.
That's pretty rich coming from a lady who's certain old Adolf ought to have killed twelve million Jews.

WTF?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
I swear I am against conscription, and war in general and killing in general, but reading these threads full of blood lust and wannabe cowboys who are so so so certain that what is really needed is more guns to kill more people, especially scary people like brown people and mentally ill people, I swear I think that a whole bunch of posters really need to spend some time in a war zone and find out what it actually means to kill someone.
That's pretty rich coming from a lady who's certain old Adolf ought to have killed twelve million Jews.
I suppose in your world 2+ 2 = horseshoe crab.
 
That's pretty rich coming from a lady who's certain old Adolf ought to have killed twelve million Jews.

WTF?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

:boohoo: I wouldn't expect a bloodthirsty racist to have any idea what civilized people are talking about.

Oh, wait, are you suggesting there's something wrong with gratuitously calling another poster a bloodthirsty racist based on nothing but one's own imagination?
 
WTF?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

:boohoo: I wouldn't expect a bloodthirsty racist to have any idea what civilized people are talking about.

Oh, wait, are you suggesting there's something wrong with gratuitously calling another poster a bloodthirsty racist based on nothing but one's own imagination?

Again: WTF.

Seriously.

Not what I did so I don't know why you are trying to cram feet into that pair of shoes unless you feel fairly confident of the fit.
 
WTF?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

:boohoo: I wouldn't expect a bloodthirsty racist to have any idea what civilized people are talking about.

Oh, wait, are you suggesting there's something wrong with gratuitously calling another poster a bloodthirsty racist based on nothing but one's own imagination?
Ironically, this is all based on you gratuitously imagining that someone called another poster a blood thirsty racist. It is pretty clear that you have no clue what any people are talking about in this thread.
 
What it says is that you aren't paying attention to what happened.

Note that he suffered injuries--and since he was fighting a guy with a knife that probably means he was stabbed. There's no obligation to accept such injuries in a defense situation, your comparison thus has no bearing on reality.

What reality is that, Loren? That instead of one person being dead, two people are alive? Because one of those people had the common sense and frankly, the balls to stop an attack and NOT kill someone?

What the hell is wrong with you? Are you so anxious to justify any level at all of police violence against unarmed victims that you also feel compelled to advocate for higher levels of violence when such increased violence was not necessary to stop an attack?

I would prefer to see the bad guy dead than the good guy stabbed.

Apparently you care only about life, not health.

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What it says is that you aren't paying attention to what happened.
No, it means you lack reading comprehension.
Note that he suffered injuries--and since he was fighting a guy with a knife that probably means he was stabbed. There's no obligation to accept such injuries in a defense situation, your comparison thus has no bearing on reality.
My point is that if this unarmed 75 year old man dealt with a knife wielding person intending to kill others even though he was unarmed and he did not kill the perpetrator, then one should expect a trained professional police officer who is equipped with more skills to be able to do the same - even if that means the officer gets injured. This 75 year chess tutor showed the guts and humanity that we should expect from our police force. So, your post is literally non-responsive.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more correct than it was the first time.

What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.
 
What reality is that, Loren? That instead of one person being dead, two people are alive? Because one of those people had the common sense and frankly, the balls to stop an attack and NOT kill someone?

What the hell is wrong with you? Are you so anxious to justify any level at all of police violence against unarmed victims that you also feel compelled to advocate for higher levels of violence when such increased violence was not necessary to stop an attack?

I would prefer to see the bad guy dead than the good guy stabbed.

Apparently you care only about life, not health.

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What it says is that you aren't paying attention to what happened.
No, it means you lack reading comprehension.
Note that he suffered injuries--and since he was fighting a guy with a knife that probably means he was stabbed. There's no obligation to accept such injuries in a defense situation, your comparison thus has no bearing on reality.
My point is that if this unarmed 75 year old man dealt with a knife wielding person intending to kill others even though he was unarmed and he did not kill the perpetrator, then one should expect a trained professional police officer who is equipped with more skills to be able to do the same - even if that means the officer gets injured. This 75 year chess tutor showed the guts and humanity that we should expect from our police force. So, your post is literally non-responsive.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more correct than it was the first time.

What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.

Is he likely to die from his injuries? Suffer permanent damage? Does he regret stopping the attack? Does he regret not killing the kid when disarming him was sufficient? Does he strike you as lacking sense or judgement about how to conduct himself?

At every point it is clear that his goal was to protect the children. Including protecting them from witnessing an unnecessary death.

This 75 year old man was able to accomplish his goal of protecting his charges without anybody dying.

Why do you insist his better course of action was to have had a gun so he could kill the kid?
 
Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more correct than it was the first time.
A more ironic statement could not come from you.
What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.
Since I am the one who mentioned his injuries in the OP, either you lack reading comprehension or are you are being disingenuous. And, Mr Vaughn was in Morton, Illinois, and he did endure his injuries and he did save the lives of the 16 children even though that was not his job nor was he a trained professional. I repeat, if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?
 
A more ironic statement could not come from you.
What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.
Since I am the one who mentioned his injuries in the OP, either you lack reading comprehension or are you are being disingenuous. And, Mr Vaughn was in Morton, Illinois, and he did endure his injuries and he did save the lives of the 16 children even though that was not his job nor was he a trained professional. I repeat, if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?
Good luck trying to find applicants for the police department if the job description requires them as part of their normal duty to subdue knife wielding subjects without harming them. I don't think a city could pay me enough to take such a job. How much would you expect for a salary if that was your job description?

What I would do on my own in a surprise emergency situation has nothing to do with taking a job that I knew would continually put me in that situation.
 
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A more ironic statement could not come from you.
Since I am the one who mentioned his injuries in the OP, either you lack reading comprehension or are you are being disingenuous. And, Mr Vaughn was in Morton, Illinois, and he did endure his injuries and he did save the lives of the 16 children even though that was not his job nor was he a trained professional. I repeat, if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?
Good luck trying to find applicants for the police department if the job description requires them as part of their normal duty to subdue knife wielding subjects without harming them. I don't think a city could pay me enough to take such a job. How much would you expect for a salary if that was your job description?

What I would do on my own in a surprise emergency situation has nothing to do with taking a job that I knew would continually put me in that situation.

There is a big difference between 'without harming' and 'without killing'. If the assailant ends up with a few bruises, then nobody is going to be too upset.

In the UK, police are not routinely armed with guns, so shooting dead an assailant who is armed with a knife is not an option - and yet UK police forces don't seem to struggle to find new recruits. Nor do police routinely get stabbed to death - because they are trained to disarm knife-wielding assailants, and because they are typically provided with 'stab-vests' (a kind of light body armour), which helps them to do so with a lower risk of serious injury.
 
Is he likely to die from his injuries? Suffer permanent damage? Does he regret stopping the attack? Does he regret not killing the kid when disarming him was sufficient? Does he strike you as lacking sense or judgement about how to conduct himself?

I haven't seen anything about how much permanent damage he suffered, that's not the sort of thing that usually gets in the paper. Most stabbings do result in some lasting effects, though.

At every point it is clear that his goal was to protect the children. Including protecting them from witnessing an unnecessary death.

This 75 year old man was able to accomplish his goal of protecting his charges without anybody dying.

Why do you insist his better course of action was to have had a gun so he could kill the kid?

Because I care about the fact that he got stabbed, you apparently don't. This isn't Hollywood--nerves don't regrow. Any nerve that gets cut is gone for good and there aren't a lot of places you can cut without inflicting at least some nerve damage.

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A more ironic statement could not come from you.
What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.
Since I am the one who mentioned his injuries in the OP, either you lack reading comprehension or are you are being disingenuous. And, Mr Vaughn was in Morton, Illinois, and he did endure his injuries and he did save the lives of the 16 children even though that was not his job nor was he a trained professional. I repeat, if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?

In other words, only life matters. Injuries are meaningless.

You're also assuming that if the incident were replayed 100 times he would prevail all 100 when more likely he simply got lucky because the guy wasn't expecting meaningful resistance from a 75 year old.

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In the UK, police are not routinely armed with guns, so shooting dead an assailant who is armed with a knife is not an option - and yet UK police forces don't seem to struggle to find new recruits. Nor do police routinely get stabbed to death - because they are trained to disarm knife-wielding assailants, and because they are typically provided with 'stab-vests' (a kind of light body armour), which helps them to do so with a lower risk of serious injury.

Because they back off and leave such matters for the armed units.
 
In other words, only life matters. Injuries are meaningless.

You're also assuming that if the incident were replayed 100 times he would prevail all 100 when more likely he simply got lucky because the guy wasn't expecting meaningful resistance from a 75 year old.
Stop evading the question with these idiotic strawmen. I will repeat it again:
if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?
 
I haven't seen anything about how much permanent damage he suffered, that's not the sort of thing that usually gets in the paper. Most stabbings do result in some lasting effects, though.

At every point it is clear that his goal was to protect the children. Including protecting them from witnessing an unnecessary death.

This 75 year old man was able to accomplish his goal of protecting his charges without anybody dying.

Why do you insist his better course of action was to have had a gun so he could kill the kid?

Because I care about the fact that he got stabbed, you apparently don't. This isn't Hollywood--nerves don't regrow. Any nerve that gets cut is gone for good and there aren't a lot of places you can cut without inflicting at least some nerve damage.

Of course the better outcome would be if the man had not been stabbed. A better outcome would have also been if the boy had received whatever mental health help he so desperately needed. I hope that he is receiving help now.

I do not think that this man was duty bound to use hand to hand combat to disarm a much younger assailant. I do, however, admire that he was willing to do so and that he was successful.

Now, if circumstances had been different and the older gentleman had been armed, I think that it is quit probable that he would have been justified in using his firearm, even if it resulted in the death of that poor disturbed boy. That option would have almost certainly endangered the lives of others, including young children.

This is not Hollywood. Not every shot hits its mark. Not every shooter knows what his real target is. Innocent bystanders are often unintended victims.

I do so much admire this man who bravely made sure the children got to safety and disarmed a disturbed young man and that no lives were lost. He exhibited bravery, resourcefulness, grace under extreme pressure, dedication to purpose. Those are all qualities to be admired.

No one would expect you to behave the same way, Loren.

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A more ironic statement could not come from you.
What you seem to miss is that this guy got stabbed. This isn't Hollywood where you shrug off any injury that doesn't kill you.
Since I am the one who mentioned his injuries in the OP, either you lack reading comprehension or are you are being disingenuous. And, Mr Vaughn was in Morton, Illinois, and he did endure his injuries and he did save the lives of the 16 children even though that was not his job nor was he a trained professional. I repeat, if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?

In other words, only life matters. Injuries are meaningless.

You're also assuming that if the incident were replayed 100 times he would prevail all 100 when more likely he simply got lucky because the guy wasn't expecting meaningful resistance from a 75 year old.

Oh, get off it Loren. YOU are the one who seems to have things confused with Hollywood, where the valiant hero's aim is always true!

No one. Not one single person in this thread has said that disarming the assailant and risking and sustaining injuries was the ONLY thing the man should have done. But please pardon us all if we are grateful that no one lost his life.

I sincerely hope that he recovers quickly from his injuries and is able to resume coaching chess. There is a great deal to admire in this man: his willingness to teach a group of young children on a volunteer basis, his courage and resourcefulness under an extreme threat, his dedication in ensuring that the children were safe, first and foremost. His ability to look ahead to the next chess session, rather than cower in a corner or thump his chest at his own bravery in gunning down a kid.

I seriously do not understand anyone who thinks a better outcome would have been if the kid was dead. That is sick and sad and pathetic.
 
In other words, only life matters. Injuries are meaningless.

You're also assuming that if the incident were replayed 100 times he would prevail all 100 when more likely he simply got lucky because the guy wasn't expecting meaningful resistance from a 75 year old.
Stop evading the question with these idiotic strawmen. I will repeat it again:
if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?

Repeating a wife-beater question doesn't change the situation. You are making two assumptions here:

1) That any injuries he suffered in the process are unimportant.

2) That he could do this virtually 100% of the time.
 
Stop evading the question with these idiotic strawmen. I will repeat it again:
if a 75 old chess tutor can disarm a knife-wielding homicidal 19 year old, why shouldn't society expect a trained and professional police officer to be able to disarm such people without killing them?

Repeating a wife-beater question doesn't change the situation. You are making two assumptions here:

1) That any injuries he suffered in the process are unimportant.

2) That he could do this virtually 100% of the time.
Loren, no one has suggested that the same outcome would happen if this incident were repeated 100 times.

No one has suggested that the injuries the older man suffered are not important .

You're just making stuff up.
 
In the UK, police are not routinely armed with guns, so shooting dead an assailant who is armed with a knife is not an option - and yet UK police forces don't seem to struggle to find new recruits. Nor do police routinely get stabbed to death - because they are trained to disarm knife-wielding assailants, and because they are typically provided with 'stab-vests' (a kind of light body armour), which helps them to do so with a lower risk of serious injury.

Because they back off and leave such matters for the armed units.

If a UK police patrol called in Armed Response every time they encountered a person with a knife, their colleagues would make a laughing stock of them.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The Metropolitan Police class armed response calls in two categories; Spontaneous armed response is typically triggered by an emergency call from a member of the public, who reports the use of a firearm. Such calls are screened by the Tactical Firearms Officer, who holds the rank of Inspector; Authorised armed response is typically intelligence driven, and is authorised in advance by a Strategic Firearms Commander, who holds the rank of Superintendent. Such response is generally only authorised when firearms are reasonably expected to be present at the scene; The presence of a person armed with a knife is NOT sufficient grounds for the TFO to authorise the dispatch of an ARV.

http://content.met.police.uk/Article/SCO19-FAQs/1400024227613/1400024227613

The Met Police firearms unit (SC&O19) publish statistics by borough on the number of each type of operation attended; the number of incidents where shots were fired by police; and the total number of shots fired. You can find these statistics here. The Metropolitan Police area is an urban setting, with a population of 7.2 million people in 620 square miles. In the most recent quarter for which figures have been published, Q1 of 2014, the total shots fired by officers of SC&O19 was zero.
 
Because they back off and leave such matters for the armed units.

If a UK police patrol called in Armed Response every time they encountered a person with a knife, their colleagues would make a laughing stock of them.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The Metropolitan Police class armed response calls in two categories; Spontaneous armed response is typically triggered by an emergency call from a member of the public, who reports the use of a firearm. Such calls are screened by the Tactical Firearms Officer, who holds the rank of Inspector; Authorised armed response is typically intelligence driven, and is authorised in advance by a Strategic Firearms Commander, who holds the rank of Superintendent. Such response is generally only authorised when firearms are reasonably expected to be present at the scene; The presence of a person armed with a knife is NOT sufficient grounds for the TFO to authorise the dispatch of an ARV.

http://content.met.police.uk/Article/SCO19-FAQs/1400024227613/1400024227613

The Met Police firearms unit (SC&O19) publish statistics by borough on the number of each type of operation attended; the number of incidents where shots were fired by police; and the total number of shots fired. You can find these statistics here. The Metropolitan Police area is an urban setting, with a population of 7.2 million people in 620 square miles. In the most recent quarter for which figures have been published, Q1 of 2014, the total shots fired by officers of SC&O19 was zero.

[YOUTUBE]cznNf2LUk74[/YOUTUBE]
 
In the UK, police are not routinely armed with guns, so shooting dead an assailant who is armed with a knife is not an option - and yet UK police forces don't seem to struggle to find new recruits. Nor do police routinely get stabbed to death - because they are trained to disarm knife-wielding assailants, and because they are typically provided with 'stab-vests' (a kind of light body armour), which helps them to do so with a lower risk of serious injury.

Because they back off and leave such matters for the armed units.

1. In the case of a knife-wielding crazy in an emergency situation, unarmed UK police are going to do what they need to do just as the 75-year old chess tutor did.

2. Unarmed patrol officers backing off and leaving matters for "armed units" would have been an excellent choice in the majority of cases we see in the USA. Examples: Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, Deven Guilford - all would be alive if the initial responding officers were not armed with guns.
 
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