A discussion of the “biology” of sex, by gender

[Rhea]

Like this author, I too squint when i hear males talking about how people need to just accept the biology of male sex drive and then they don’t think twice about stopping the converstion there. i found this article to be illuminating.

http://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

Feminism, [Andrew Sullivan] says, has refused to give men their due and denied the role "nature" must play in these discussions. Ladies, he writes, if you keep denying biology, you'll watch men get defensive, react, and "fight back."
[…]
The real problem isn't that we — as a culture — don't sufficiently consider men's biological reality. The problem is rather that theirs is literally the only biological reality we ever bother to consider.

I found it especially interesting the discussion of what “bad sex” is to men and women. On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is
Really bad sex, what a man calls an 8 is what a woman calls a 2; and then she’s called the whiner. We’ve had some discussions on this board about how men call awkward sex like the worst thing ever (I have to ask permission? Worst ever!)

Anyway, laying this out there for discussion.

 

[Bronzeage]

One of the problems of talking about one's sexual experience it that most sexual experiences worth talking about, are also someone else's sexual experiences. While a person may freely suspend their right to personal privacy, no one has that right with other people's personal privacy, and talking about sexual experiences is by definition, also exposing someone else's sexual experiences. This inhibition does not apply to people who make it all up.

Anyone who thinks awkward sex is the worst thing ever, have obviously led a sheltered life. There's almost no point in even trying to discuss something which so subjective, there is no way for two people to compare experiences. It's as if we can't do it without a punchline at the end. There is a simple reason a man's Bad Sex scale is 8-10, which is he stops at 7.9. That is one of the aspects of male sexuality. A man can usually quit anytime he wants, and doesn't have to ask anyone's permission(There are exceptions, which will need a separate thread). When sex becomes painful, it's not so much that he doesn't want to continue, he can't continue.

 

[TSwizzle]

It's an interesting read. I'm not sure what to make of it though. I don't think I've ever had a partner say that sex was painful. So now I'm thinking, did they power through the pain, i.e. take one for the team ? I don't think that has ever been the case though. So I'm having a hard time accepting that it is common. I know her Twitter poll had 48% saying pain was "bad sex". But it's a bit vague to say the least. But I imagine for the vast majority of young women, pain or no pain, the sex is pretty crap. And I'll hold my hand up and say, I was crap at it until experienced.

 

[Rhea]

I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.


At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

But yes, I think you’re right in that the other half of that is that men will stop, and can stop, and are allowed to stop when they experience pain. I think they are capable of continuing if they were willing, the erection doesn’t go away that fast, but they will not and do not expect that of themselves for the sake of their partner.

 

[bigfield]

It's an interesting article that shows that people (as a group) can maintain some really stupid social norms.

I wish we lived in a world that encouraged women to attend to their bodies' pain signals instead of powering through like endurance champs. It would be grand if women (and men) were taught to consider a woman's pain abnormal; better still if we understood a woman's discomfort to be reason enough to cut a man's pleasure short.

I'm sure society will get there. Sexual liberation--enabled by medical science--is still a fairly recent phenomenon in the course of human history, and women in the West have been winning better treatment with each generation.

But those aren't actually the lessons society teaches — no, not even to "entitled" millennials. Remember: Sex is always a step behind social progress in other areas because of its intimacy. Talking details is hard, and it's good we're finally starting to. But next time we're inclined to wonder why a woman didn't immediately register and fix her own discomfort, we might wonder why we spent the preceding decades instructing her to override the signals we now blame her for not recognizing.

I'd say that "we" (the readers) have probably got that figured out already, but it takes a long time for that enlightenment to propagate.

 

[Toni]

One of the problems of talking about one's sexual experience it that most sexual experiences worth talking about, are also someone else's sexual experiences. While a person may freely suspend their right to personal privacy, no one has that right with other people's personal privacy, and talking about sexual experiences is by definition, also exposing someone else's sexual experiences. This inhibition does not apply to people who make it all up.

Anyone who thinks awkward sex is the worst thing ever, have obviously led a sheltered life. There's almost no point in even trying to discuss something which so subjective, there is no way for two people to compare experiences. It's as if we can't do it without a punchline at the end. There is a simple reason a man's Bad Sex scale is 8-10, which is he stops at 7.9. That is one of the aspects of male sexuality. A man can usually quit anytime he wants, and doesn't have to ask anyone's permission(There are exceptions, which will need a separate thread). When sex becomes painful, it's not so much that he doesn't want to continue, he can't continue.

I don't really agree that there is no way to compare sexual experiences. Sure, an act that is pleasure for one person can be uncomfortable (physically, emotionally, whatever) for another person, hopefully not the person involved in that particular act with the first person. But sometimes, it is and sometimes, it's dependent on a lot of factors. For women, an obvious variable is point in hormonal cycle. At certain times of the cycle, depending on individual, it might require more stimulation to be adequately lubricated, for instance. Or even aroused. Fatigue, distraction, illness, stress, etc. all play a role in sexual response for both genders.

All of that aside, it is not so difficult to say that this really feels good to me; that does not feel good. That hurts. More this. Not that. Faster. Slow down or I'll come too fast. Or it should not be difficult to share that with someone you are being intimate with.

It may (or may not ) be more awkward to talk with a friend about sex--what you like/don't like. Depending on individuals and the kind of relationship. What I will say is that I've been surprised at the number of women I know who don't really like sex or for whom sex is unpleasant or painful. More than one friend admitted to just getting it over so she could get some much needed sleep. I

Mostly, I've been surprised at how many have continued to have sex with someone with whom sex is unpleasant. Here, I'm specifically thinking of a good friend who (years ago)dated a guy who was a jerk, and the sex was bad but for some reason, she felt compelled to continue dating him and having sex with him even though the entire experience was unpleasant at best. Actually, she put up with a lot of terrible behavior from some really bad dudes at one period of our lives. Especially considering that she was (and still is) jaw droppingly beautiful, extremely intelligent and quite talented. But for a long time, could not say no to some pretty lousy guys. On the other hand, I had very little use for being treated badly, or for bad sex. I never really understood why she would put up with bad partners, given that she probably could have had any guy she wanted while I am much, much, much more ordinary. But also, as it turned out, much more selective.

I think part of it is that in terms of fight/flight instincts: I'm much more fight. She's much more flight.

Awkward sex is often first time (with that partner) sex or early days before people learn each other's responses--or their own, if we're talking more inexperienced people. Or inexperienced with each other people. That's distinctly different than unpleasant sex: sex which one partner does not actually want or enjoy but for whatever reason cannot or does not express their actual feelings.

Still different is sex that hurts. It appears to be much more common for women than for men, although perhaps women are simply more willing to admit on a survey that sometimes a certain act causes pain. I suspect it's both, though. But never having been a man, I cannot know for certain. The only time I ever heard a complaint that something was uncomfortable from a male partner was when it was the 7th or 8th time that day and he was getting..a little irritated.

Why have sex with someone if you don't feel comfortable enough with them to say: Yes! More! That feels good! A little to the left! Stop. Not that. and so on? Seriously, why would one have sex with someone you can't actually express your feelings and likes and dislikes to? Isn't that what sex is about? Expressing feelings--physical and emotional?

Also maybe I'm not understanding the scale.

It sounds like for, according to the article, any sex that doesn't actually feel uncomfortable is taken to be good sex? And for a man, it has to be pretty bad before he thinks it is bad? That's pretty fucked up.

But for anybody out there who might be a bit confused: this is a good reason for an enthusiastic yes to be the necessary event to allow sexual contact to progress.

 

[Rhea]

It sounds like for, according to the article, any sex that doesn't actually feel uncomfortable is taken to be good sex? And for a man, it has to be pretty bad before he thinks it is bad? That's pretty fucked up.

My understanding was that they asked about sex that just wasn’t very “hot” and men answered that this was a terrible thing, like an 8 on the scale of bad. And women answered the same question with, “sex that’s not very hot? That’s like a 2 on the bas sex scale.”

Which said to me that many men could not really imagine sex that was uncomfortable or painful or unwanted. That the worst they experienced, typically, was that it wasn’t “hot” and that totally ruined their day.

 

[southernhybrid]

Thanks for starting this thread. I've been thinking of what to say for days but I could write a book on this topic so I will try to posts some not too lengthy responses and see if there is any further interest.

First, I think it was wrong for the young woman to out Aniz. Is it right to openly hurt someone and remain anonymous? I don't think so. He may have been clueless and pushy, but he didn't rape her. This encounter should have been a learning lesson for the woman. I'm much older than the rest of you, so I learned a lot of hard lessons when I was younger and briefly single between two marriages. I came of age during the sexual revolution, which was both good and bad for women. The positive is that it at least somewhat ended the double standard, but the negative was that women sometimes were made to feel that they were supposed to have casual sex, and enjoy it, just like men say they do.

!. If you're a woman on a date, don't go to a man's home with him unless you want to have sex with him or are prepared to give him a firm "NO" or confident enough to tell him exactly what you want. For me, and most of the women I know, casual sex is almost always bad sex. Men that want sex on a first date aren't usually interested in you or your needs. They just want to fuck.

2. Why in the world should we listen to what a gay man has to say about women and sex. Let Andrew Sullivan give his advice to other gay men since I doubt he knows very much about a woman's sexual needs.

3. It usually takes some time for a man to learn what a partner wants. Imo, we women tend to be a bit more complicated when it comes to satisfying us. On the other hand, we ( or I hope most ) women are capable of having multiple orgasms and a lot of us aren't happy unless we do have mulitple orgasms. But, it's doubtful we're going to have them on a first encounter. I decided a long time ago that casual sex wasn't for me, but I would love to know the opinions of women who are much younger than me.

4. Women need to learn what they like by pleasuring themselves. ( that sounds so much nicer than masturbating ) While this may not always be necessary, it can help someone who is clueless about her own body.

I'll leave it at that for now. If others are interested in discussing this further, I will join in and share some of the things that I've learned in my almost fifty years of having really good sex, versus about six months of having really bad casual sex. For me, the secret is having a long term partner that really enjoys satisfying you.

 

[TSwizzle]

I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.
At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

I draw a distinction between discomfort and real pain. If a woman has a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse, that is a lot different from a little discomfort while we try this position I saw in Cosmopolitan.

 

[Toni]

I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.
At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

I draw a distinction between discomfort and real pain. If a woman has a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse, that is a lot different from a little discomfort while we try this position I saw in Cosmopolitan.

There is a distinction between discomfort and pain, but there's a continuum, not a hard, clear line.

It's not always a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse. That you would make that assumption is quite telling of many men's perspective. How much discomfort are you willing to endure for the sake of your partner's pleasure or satisfaction? How much pain.

I think you are in more than a little denial if you think that women will openly or baldly tell you if something is physically uncomfortable or even painful. As mind boggling as this is, there are a LOT of women, especially younger women (!!) who seem to think that sex is uncomfortable and perhaps painful and that it's their problem for either not accepting that this is what sex is or for not being able to overcome her inhibitions and experience pleasure. This is regardless of whether or not her partner is at all skilled at anything other than achieving his own orgasm.

Too many men are in the same position: it does not occur to them that a woman should be experiencing pleasure, that she might experience some discomfort or even pain or that if she isn't experiencing pleasure and instead experiences pain, discomfort, that it is because she's too uptight. More than a few are not shy about saying this rather baldly. And frankly, a lot of men are too caught up in their own experience to actually notice their partner's reactions.

Until fairly recently--and this may still be a practice, a lot of ob's would stitch a woman's vagina a bit tighter after childbirth. For her husband's pleasure, not for hers.

I've noticed recently that in various television or films that there is a lot of bad sex. It's not depicted as bad sex, but it's sex with virtually zero foreplay or zero attention to the female's needs. Then, please consider the expectation these days of women removing their pubic hair. Which can and does increase the occurrence of painful ingrown hairs. There is also now a trend towards labioplasty. Why? And just how different is this from female genital mutilation we feel so outraged when practiced in emerging, predominately Muslim nations. It's just not so far down the scale of mutilation.

I have to stifle screams when I hear people talk about a woman's genitalia as a 'vagina' when a vagina is only part of female genitalia. There's also a vulva, labia (major and minor) and a clitoris. And no: women do NOT pee out of their vagina. They have a urethra.

I just googled: images female genitalia and got more images depicting a female's reproductive organs. Apparently, even google can't see that a female is more than her ability to reproduce.

Here are a couple of other pieces:

https://www.ted.com/talks/peggy_ore...ve_about_their_own_sexual_pleasure/transcript

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-having-such-bad-sex/?utm_term=.0ef1d15fc147

 

[Playball40]

I have to stifle screams when I hear people talk about a woman's genitalia as a 'vagina' when a vagina is only part of female genitalia. There's also a vulva, labia (major and minor) and a clitoris. And no: women do NOT pee out of their vagina. They have a urethra.

I just googled: images female genitalia and got more images depicting a female's reproductive organs. Apparently, even google can't see that a female is more than her ability to reproduce.

Here are a couple of other pieces:

https://www.ted.com/talks/peggy_ore...ve_about_their_own_sexual_pleasure/transcript

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-having-such-bad-sex/?utm_term=.0ef1d15fc147

This post reminds me of the episode in OITNB where Sophia had to explain and label all of this for the women in the prison. Seriously though, it is sad that many feel they need to suffer through pain and discomfort for the sake of a man. That said, I may suffer through 'meh' sex or not having an orgasm to spare my partner's feelings. As long as it's not all the time

 

[TSwizzle]

I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.
At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

I draw a distinction between discomfort and real pain. If a woman has a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse, that is a lot different from a little discomfort while we try this position I saw in Cosmopolitan.

It's not always a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse. That you would make that assumption is quite telling of many men's perspective.

Oh piss off. You are the one making assumptions.

I think you are in more than a little denial if you think that women will openly or baldly tell you if something is physically uncomfortable or even painful. As mind boggling as this is, there are a LOT of women, especially younger women (!!) who seem to think that sex is uncomfortable and perhaps painful and that it's their problem for either not accepting that this is what sex is or for not being able to overcome her inhibitions and experience pleasure. This is regardless of whether or not her partner is at all skilled at anything other than achieving his own orgasm.

As I said, discomfort and pain are not the same thing. Actual pain (which was not really defined as to what the pain is) is reported as 30%. What Rhea described was a medical condition that made her experience real pain.

Too many men are in the same position: it does not occur to them that a woman should be experiencing pleasure, that she might experience some discomfort or even pain or that if she isn't experiencing pleasure and instead experiences pain, discomfort, that it is because she's too uptight. More than a few are not shy about saying this rather baldly. And frankly, a lot of men are too caught up in their own experience to actually notice their partner's reactions.

I wouldn't know about that. It just sounds like a load of generalizations.

Until fairly recently--and this may still be a practice, a lot of ob's would stitch a woman's vagina a bit tighter after childbirth. For her husband's pleasure, not for hers.

Never heard of it before although I have been hearing of cosmetic surgery to lady parts to make them more visually appealing according to the porn standard.

I've noticed recently that in various television or films that there is a lot of bad sex. It's not depicted as bad sex, but it's sex with virtually zero foreplay or zero attention to the female's needs.

Young men are not watching Grey's Anatomy for sex pointers, they use PornHub.

Then, please consider the expectation these days of women removing their pubic hair. Which can and does increase the occurrence of painful ingrown hairs. There is also now a trend towards labioplasty. Why? And just how different is this from female genital mutilation we feel so outraged when practiced in emerging, predominately Muslim nations. It's just not so far down the scale of mutilation. {snip}

You've gone off the reservation, I'll speak to you when you get back. Or not.

 

[Toni]

Oh piss off. You are the one making assumptions.

Yes, assumptions based off of your post.

As I said, discomfort and pain are not the same thing. Actual pain (which was not really defined as to what the pain is) is reported as 30%. What Rhea described was a medical condition that made her experience real pain.

I know. It does not require a medical condition for sex to be painful for a woman. An inconsiderate, uncaring and ill informed partner quite suffices in many cases.

Too many men are in the same position: it does not occur to them that a woman should be experiencing pleasure, that she might experience some discomfort or even pain or that if she isn't experiencing pleasure and instead experiences pain, discomfort, that it is because she's too uptight. More than a few are not shy about saying this rather baldly. And frankly, a lot of men are too caught up in their own experience to actually notice their partner's reactions.

I wouldn't know about that. It just sounds like a load of generalizations.

It is 'a load of generalizations.' We are discussing generalizations, not a blow by blow description of any particular encounter.

Until fairly recently--and this may still be a practice, a lot of ob's would stitch a woman's vagina a bit tighter after childbirth. For her husband's pleasure, not for hers.

Never heard of it before although I have been hearing of cosmetic surgery to lady parts to make them more visually appealing according to the porn standard.

Well, why would you have heard of that? You've never been a woman and have never given birth.

Can you tell me why anyone would feel the need to make their labia 'more visually appealing according to the porn star standard?'

Isn't that part of the problem? That porn seems to be the 'standard' for what sex is supposed to be like, at least for males? That actual female pleasure (I mean aside from some male fantasy) does not figure into it?

I've noticed recently that in various television or films that there is a lot of bad sex. It's not depicted as bad sex, but it's sex with virtually zero foreplay or zero attention to the female's needs.

Young men are not watching Grey's Anatomy for sex pointers, they use PornHub.

I've still never seen an episode of Grey's Anatomy. The fact that men are going to PornHub for sex pointers is indicative of part of the problem. And perhaps answers my question about why anyone would feel the need to meet porn star aesthetics, particularly when to do so is a) not medically necessary or advisable b)expensive c) diminishes the pleasure of the person having the surgery.

The part I was talking about is that it seems that there are very few depictions of actually good sex from the woman's point of view. Or that acknowledge that women have a point of view other than to be Ever Ready. You know, like the battery?

You've gone off the reservation, I'll speak to you when you get back. Or not.

Why would I allow myself to be confined to a reservation?

 

[TSwizzle]

Yes, assumptions based off of your post.

Piss off. You deliberately took that out of context.

It does not require a medical condition for sex to be painful for a woman.

I never said said that it did.

 

[Toni]

Yes, assumptions based off of your post.

Piss off. You deliberately took that out of context.

It does not require a medical condition for sex to be painful for a woman.

I never said said that it did.

I seem to have hit a nerve or two. That was not intentional on my part.

 

[Toni]

Piss off. You deliberately took that out of context.



I never said said that it did.

I seem to have hit a nerve or two. That was not intentional on my part.

Thanks for the neg rep!

 

[Toni]

Piss off. You deliberately took that out of context.



I never said said that it did.

I seem to have hit a nerve or two. That was not intentional on my part.

Thanks for the neg rep!

A double! You are too too generous!

 

[Toni]

Thanks for the neg rep!

A double! You are too too generous!

I was always taught that it was important to thank people. That's what I did.

Now, here's a gift for you:

spam
spam/Submit
noun
1.
irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.
2.
trademark
a canned meat product made mainly from ham.
verb
1.
send the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients) on the Internet.

 

[Toni]

I was always taught that it was important to thank people. That's what I did.

Now, here's a gift for you:

spam
spam/Submit
noun
1.
irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.
2.
trademark
a canned meat product made mainly from ham.
verb
1.
send the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients) on the Internet.

I wonder at what point there is a difference between spam, negative rep and harassment?

 

[Toni]

I was always taught that it was important to thank people. That's what I did.

Now, here's a gift for you:

spam
spam/Submit
noun
1.
irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients.
2.
trademark
a canned meat product made mainly from ham.
verb
1.
send the same message indiscriminately to (large numbers of recipients) on the Internet.

I wonder at what point there is a difference between spam, negative rep and harassment?

Thanks!