• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

A discussion of the “biology” of sex, by gender

Good thread, imo. Lots of interesting and valid points.

One thing about the article, I wasn't sure about it going from what was a case of more or less harassment and assault (or man way out of line if you prefer to be generous) to the topic of pain during sex.

I get the general point, what the commonality was that was being sought. I just think the Ansari incident wasn't a particularly relevant lead in to it, and perhaps as a result I finished reading the article thinking it was a bit scattergun.
 
Good thread, imo. Lots of interesting and valid points.

One thing about the article, I wasn't sure about it going from what was a case of more or less harassment and assault (or man way out of line if you prefer to be generous) to the topic of pain during sex.

I get the general point, what the commonality was that was being sought. I just think the Ansari incident wasn't a particularly relevant lead in to it, and perhaps as a result I finished reading the article thinking it was a bit scattergun.

I think that the Ansari incident is very much something that needs to be discussed widely. Most of the time, I understand and kind of agree with the general eye roll about university standards that say there should be ongoing affirmative consent. It seems unnecessary. Yet, it is obviously necessary. At least until we can get to a point where men are more willing and able to consider a woman's response and to better evaluate whether she is into what is happening or merely tolerating it or worse: frozen in fear that if she objects, she will be hurt more. And where women are more able to recognize and to voice their own feelings about sex, about all aspects of a relationship, about what they want and need and about how they feel. It seems like obvious: this should be the goal in all of our interactions. Full stop. But it isn't. Addressing this as a situation where men are all in the wrong won't get us to where we need to be. Nor will getting women to the point where they can and will stand up for themselves. And can we just say that men also need to be willing to voice their needs and wants and concerns-and consent--in intimate relationships?

We have a lot of work to do.
 
I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.
At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

I draw a distinction between discomfort and real pain. If a woman has a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse, that is a lot different from a little discomfort while we try this position I saw in Cosmopolitan.
Out of curiosity, just how much discomfort is acceptable to you?
 
I imagine it would be an interesting question to pose to your partners - academically. I would suspect that you might be surprised at the answer - not certain, but I suspect that you probably have had a partner who had an experience that was more than “he’s not good at this” but you didn’t know.
At one point when I was irst suffering an ovarian cyst (i.e. I didn’t see this coming to this degree although discomfort had been present before), I cried out in serious pain and my husband asked because he honestly did not know, “was that pain or pleasure?” So it would not surprise me that many men are unaware of the difference in the face and sounds of their partner. (It was to the hospital next day and surgery the following week, so this was rather intense.)

I draw a distinction between discomfort and real pain. If a woman has a medical condition that causes pain during intercourse, that is a lot different from a little discomfort while we try this position I saw in Cosmopolitan.
Out of curiosity, just how much discomfort is acceptable to you?

During sex ? A certain amount is tolerable providing my partner is enjoying it. Say, my knees are rubbing against a hard surface which is a bit uncomfortable for me but my partner is enjoying what is going on, I can tolerate that sort of discomfort. These are the sort of discomforts that occur frequently.
 
Good thread, imo. Lots of interesting and valid points.

One thing about the article, I wasn't sure about it going from what was a case of more or less harassment and assault (or man way out of line if you prefer to be generous) to the topic of pain during sex.

I get the general point, what the commonality was that was being sought. I just think the Ansari incident wasn't a particularly relevant lead in to it, and perhaps as a result I finished reading the article thinking it was a bit scattergun.

I think that the Ansari incident is very much something that needs to be discussed widely. Most of the time, I understand and kind of agree with the general eye roll about university standards that say there should be ongoing affirmative consent. It seems unnecessary. Yet, it is obviously necessary. At least until we can get to a point where men are more willing and able to consider a woman's response and to better evaluate whether she is into what is happening or merely tolerating it or worse: frozen in fear that if she objects, she will be hurt more. And where women are more able to recognize and to voice their own feelings about sex, about all aspects of a relationship, about what they want and need and about how they feel. It seems like obvious: this should be the goal in all of our interactions. Full stop. But it isn't. Addressing this as a situation where men are all in the wrong won't get us to where we need to be. Nor will getting women to the point where they can and will stand up for themselves. And can we just say that men also need to be willing to voice their needs and wants and concerns-and consent--in intimate relationships?

We have a lot of work to do.

I pretty much agree with all of that. And your previous posts.

I was just thinking there was a slight disjoint between the issues in the Aniz Ansari case and the issue of pain during sex. Also, when I read the Andrew Sullivan article, I couldn't quite see where it fitted in (pun intended) or why the article writer apparently took such exception to it. That's why I ended up thinking 'scattergun'.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for starting this thread. I've been thinking of what to say for days but I could write a book on this topic so I will try to posts some not too lengthy responses and see if there is any further interest.

First, I think it was wrong for the young woman to out Aniz. Is it right to openly hurt someone and remain anonymous? I don't think so. He may have been clueless and pushy, but he didn't rape her. This encounter should have been a learning lesson for the woman. I'm much older than the rest of you, so I learned a lot of hard lessons when I was younger and briefly single between two marriages. I came of age during the sexual revolution, which was both good and bad for women. The positive is that it at least somewhat ended the double standard, but the negative was that women sometimes were made to feel that they were supposed to have casual sex, and enjoy it, just like men say they do.

!. If you're a woman on a date, don't go to a man's home with him unless you want to have sex with him or are prepared to give him a firm "NO" or confident enough to tell him exactly what you want. For me, and most of the women I know, casual sex is almost always bad sex. Men that want sex on a first date aren't usually interested in you or your needs. They just want to fuck.

2. Why in the world should we listen to what a gay man has to say about women and sex. Let Andrew Sullivan give his advice to other gay men since I doubt he knows very much about a woman's sexual needs.

3. It usually takes some time for a man to learn what a partner wants. Imo, we women tend to be a bit more complicated when it comes to satisfying us. On the other hand, we ( or I hope most ) women are capable of having multiple orgasms and a lot of us aren't happy unless we do have mulitple orgasms. But, it's doubtful we're going to have them on a first encounter. I decided a long time ago that casual sex wasn't for me, but I would love to know the opinions of women who are much younger than me.

4. Women need to learn what they like by pleasuring themselves. ( that sounds so much nicer than masturbating :) ) While this may not always be necessary, it can help someone who is clueless about her own body.

I'll leave it at that for now. If others are interested in discussing this further, I will join in and share some of the things that I've learned in my almost fifty years of having really good sex, versus about six months of having really bad casual sex. For me, the secret is having a long term partner that really enjoys satisfying you.

I remember seeing, not long ago, a video of an address given by a female sociologist and self-identifying feminist, on the issue of he-said/she-said problems in some (many) rape and sexual assault cases. You sound quite a lot like her and you might be of a similar (vint)age. :)

I can't seem to find the video now, though I have a feeling I posted in somewhere on this forum a while back.

I think she too might have felt that the woman in the Aniz Ansari case should not necessarily have outed him. She (the sociologist) might have used a phrase she did use elsewhere, that 'this was not the sort of feminism I signed up for as a young woman at college'.

She might also, like you, have said, "If you're a woman on a date, don't go to a man's home with him unless you want to have sex with him or are prepared to give him a firm "NO" or confident enough to tell him exactly what you want." She might even have said (and more or less did if I recall right), "If you're a woman on a date, don't readily get into a man's bed with him unless you want to have sex with him, especially if you and/or he are drunk". Which is slightly more controversial, and a man would not easily get away with saying it, for reasons that I can appreciate (while still thinking of it as generally good advice about prevention and personal responsibility, that both my wife and myself have already in fact offered to our daughters, who are now young adults). Such advice does not, obviously, put responsibility only on one of the people in the bed. Nor does it imply anything other than no means no at any point before or during what they get up to.

Personally, I (speaking as a man) can agree that the woman ('Grace'), who I regard as having been, by her description (which I see no reason not to accept) harassed and assaulted, might not necessarily have needed to out Aniz, but I also think (a) that she was entitled to and (b) I probably lean slightly towards the side of saying that she should have, because despite all the progress on paper (ie 'western' legislation) it seems, unfortunately, that there are still too many men (and I'm not going to guess what the percentage is and it will vary from person to person in any case) who still think and act....badly.....when it comes to gender equailty and although it might be unfortunate for Aniz to be such a public casualty, the publicity might be good for helping to resolve the general problem. Ditto for hashtag me too. I might share some people's reservations about it 'going too far' at times, but on the whole I think it has been a good thing, and I hope that more men, especially young men perhaps, are starting to question their attitudes.
 
Last edited:
I think we could have the conversation about dating men and bad sex, without mentioning a particular man. The unknown woman could have said that she went our with a celebrity and they had bad sex, because she felt pressured. She could have said that men and women need to talk about this issue and try to understand each other's needs and wants when it comes to casual sex. I already said I would love to hear a much younger woman's opinion on this topic. I had my share of casual sex when I was much younger. It was all bad so I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort. I never had the impulse to out any of my partners, and I don't think that had a thing to do with the times. If a man has bad sex with a woman, should he out her in a public venue?

I certainly don't want to go back to the days when women were supposed to act like Puritans unless they wanted to be labeled as sluts. On the other hand, I do believe that there are some biological differences between the sexuality of men and women. There are a lot of problems on college campuses these days if what women are saying is correct.
 
I apologise in advance for presenting a controversial viewpoint, but this is genuinely how I feel. There is never any excuse a man (or woman) can make to justify sex with someone who was reluctant or not 100% willing. Period. If you are going to have sex with someone it is your responsibility to be 100% sure that it is what they want, and if you detect any hesitancy you should back off. There should be no cajoling or persuading or "she was just playing hard to get." And if you claim that you couldn't tell, then you simply don't know them well enough to be having sex with them, because you cannot assure assent. That is not to say that you can't have casual sex - that is of course up to you - but if you are going to "risk" casual sex, affirmation of consent cannot be compromised.

And I am not buying this "biological differences" bullcrap. Sure, some men are aggressive douchebags with no desire to please their partner, but so are some women. The differences between individuals of the same gender are so big that to use gender as an excuse does not make sense.
 
I think we could have the conversation about dating men and bad sex, without mentioning a particular man. The unknown woman could have said that she went our with a celebrity and they had bad sex, because she felt pressured. She could have said that men and women need to talk about this issue and try to understand each other's needs and wants when it comes to casual sex.

Without naming this particular celebrity, her story would not have received anywhere near the coverage it did. I think the reason it was covered so much was because of Ansari's reputation for being one of the good guys, down with the #metoo movement etc. I really don't know what her motivation is for going sort of public.

I already said I would love to hear a much younger woman's opinion on this topic. I had my share of casual sex when I was much younger. It was all bad so I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort. I never had the impulse to out any of my partners, and I don't think that had a thing to do with the times. If a man has bad sex with a woman, should he out her in a public venue?

But what made the sex bad is really the gist of the OP article. The author is a bit focused on why women /tolerate discomfort/pain. The author seems to say the term bad sex is too broad or doesn't include the "sex was bad because it bloody hurt" option in surveys. Which does not appear to be a problem for men. They either don't care about the women's discomfort or are unaware of it maybe.
 
Last edited:
The potentially valid point of the article is greatly undermined by the author's stupidity and dogmatic ideology that undermines any rational analysis.

The following destroys all her credibility:

[P] "PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43 [conditions related to pain experienced by females during sex]. Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right."[/P]

No, it is due to the obvious fact that clinical trials are paid for by drug companies, and there is far more profit potential in ED drugs. This is due to two other facts. First, is that erectile dysfunction prevents intercourse from happening at all, which greatly impacts the well being of both men and women. Intercourse-preventing chronic ED is far more common the chronic vaginal pain that is so severe it prevents intercourse. Second, almost all those ED clinical trials are to test to the effectiveness of patented drugs specifically designed to treat ED. The drug companies are the one's paying for the research, and vaginal pain is not a specific problem that can be treated with a targeted drug. It is a collection of symptoms due to highly variable causes. Most treatment entails behavioral changes that have no profit opportunity. Those treatments that involve drugs, involve already established medicines that serve a more general functions such as yeast infection creams, lubricants, or hormone therapy. Thus, far less need or motive for clinical trials.
 
The potentially valid point of the article is greatly undermined by the author's stupidity and dogmatic ideology that undermines any rational analysis.

The following destroys all her credibility:

[P] "PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43 [conditions related to pain experienced by females during sex]. Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right."[/P]

No, it is due to the obvious fact that clinical trials are paid for by drug companies, and there is far more profit potential in ED drugs. This is due to two other facts. First, is that erectile dysfunction prevents intercourse from happening at all, which greatly impacts the well being of both men and women. Intercourse-preventing chronic ED is far more common the chronic vaginal pain that is so severe it prevents intercourse. Second, almost all those ED clinical trials are to test to the effectiveness of patented drugs specifically designed to treat ED. The drug companies are the one's paying for the research, and vaginal pain is not a specific problem that can be treated with a targeted drug. It is a collection of symptoms due to highly variable causes. Most treatment entails behavioral changes that have no profit opportunity. Those treatments that involve drugs, involve already established medicines that serve a more general functions such as yeast infection creams, lubricants, or hormone therapy. Thus, far less need or motive for clinical trials.

This is a big gripe of mine with most journalism being written these days. Journalists are increasingly writing to appeal to their reader's prejudices because no one wants to hear 'actually, maybe this issue is slightly more complex and nuanced than we all think', they just want their viewpoints validated which drives social sharing and the profits of the publication.
 
The potentially valid point of the article is greatly undermined by the author's stupidity and dogmatic ideology that undermines any rational analysis.

The following destroys all her credibility:

[P] "PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43 [conditions related to pain experienced by females during sex]. Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right."[/P]

No, it is due to the obvious fact that clinical trials are paid for by drug companies, and there is far more profit potential in ED drugs. This is due to two other facts. First, is that erectile dysfunction prevents intercourse from happening at all, which greatly impacts the well being of both men and women. Intercourse-preventing chronic ED is far more common the chronic vaginal pain that is so severe it prevents intercourse. Second, almost all those ED clinical trials are to test to the effectiveness of patented drugs specifically designed to treat ED. The drug companies are the one's paying for the research, and vaginal pain is not a specific problem that can be treated with a targeted drug. It is a collection of symptoms due to highly variable causes. Most treatment entails behavioral changes that have no profit opportunity. Those treatments that involve drugs, involve already established medicines that serve a more general functions such as yeast infection creams, lubricants, or hormone therapy. Thus, far less need or motive for clinical trials.

This is a big gripe of mine with most journalism being written these days. Journalists are increasingly writing to appeal to their reader's prejudices because no one wants to hear 'actually, maybe this issue is slightly more complex and nuanced than we all think', they just want their viewpoints validated which drives social sharing and the profits of the publication.

Just to make a point about erectile dysfunction and Viagra and its related drugs, yes, it's true that a lot of research money has gone into their development, probably much more than into similar female related problems.

For every Viagra prescription, there is a man who wants a woman to have pleasure. No man ever spent $20 on a pill so he could have a more satisfying masturbatory experience.
 
I don't think Sildenafil was developed with the intention of treating ED. It just had the side effect of treating ED. So in that light, I guess the author is a bit off in their view of a male only focus.
 
I don't think Sildenafil was developed with the intention of treating ED. It just had the side effect of treating ED. So in that light, I guess the author is a bit off in their view of a male only focus.

A lot of drugs disappoint their maker, but manage to stay around because the side effects are marketable.
 
The potentially valid point of the article is greatly undermined by the author's stupidity and dogmatic ideology that undermines any rational analysis.

The following destroys all her credibility:

[P] "PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43 [conditions related to pain experienced by females during sex]. Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right."[/P]

No, it is due to the obvious fact that clinical trials are paid for by drug companies, and there is far more profit potential in ED drugs. This is due to two other facts. First, is that erectile dysfunction prevents intercourse from happening at all, which greatly impacts the well being of both men and women. Intercourse-preventing chronic ED is far more common the chronic vaginal pain that is so severe it prevents intercourse. Second, almost all those ED clinical trials are to test to the effectiveness of patented drugs specifically designed to treat ED. The drug companies are the one's paying for the research, and vaginal pain is not a specific problem that can be treated with a targeted drug. It is a collection of symptoms due to highly variable causes. Most treatment entails behavioral changes that have no profit opportunity. Those treatments that involve drugs, involve already established medicines that serve a more general functions such as yeast infection creams, lubricants, or hormone therapy. Thus, far less need or motive for clinical trials.

You're not really getting the picture.

Products are aimed at men because most researchers, most business people, are male. It's not necessarily a deliberate effort to serve only men and ignore serious needs on the part of women as it is severe myopia.

There are plenty of products designed to make women more appealing to men--marketed towards women. Very few products beyond deodorant and shampoo designed to make men more appealing to women.

Women are socialized to please other people, especially men. They are socialized to be nice, to be pretty, to compromise,to be compliant--and to accept men's urgent need to have sex on demand as just how men are, with very little thought to what the women want, need, feel about any aspect of their lives.

Men are taught to win.

You have zero idea how prevalent vaginal pain is and you have zero basis for which to opine what level of vaginal pain would prevent intercourse. Actually, vaginal pain does NOT prevent intercourse at all. It does GREATLY reduce the potential for anyone with a vagina wishing to engage in intercourse and of course it greatly inhibits and quite often over-rides any potential pleasure on the part of the person experiencing vaginal pain.

Can you list reasons for vaginal pain during intercourse? Without googling it?

Vaginal pain is not the only pain that women may experience during intercourse. Cysts and fibroids can produce significant pain in the abdomen and in the pelvic floor, for starters. There's more. Women's breasts can also be painful or just too sensitive to slight touch that the day before felt great.

We DO live in a world--not limited to a single culture-that sees male pleasure in sexual intercourse as a right and as a fact of nature. The fact that some women experience significant pain during sexual intercourse is pretty much accepted as a matter of fact. By medical professionals. Who don't seem to be aware or to care that women can and do and want to experience sexual pleasure. I know because I've been in some appointments where male patients, facing surgery that had a risk of limiting his ability to experience or enjoy sexual intercourse was treated very gently, kindly, and given a great deal of support and information about ensuring his sex life would not be impacted. Men don't even really need to bring it up: it's right there in the literature and it's discussed, with a great deal of compassion and understanding by the (mostly male) doctors. On the other hand, women facing surgery that could potentially dramatically alter her ability to enjoy sexual intercourse or even to change pleasure to discomfort or pain are rarely given such sympathy or even have their feelings acknowledged. It's just taken as one of those facts of life. She has to advocate rather fiercely to be offered choices that would preserve her ability to enjoy sex.

For the most part, women are conditioned to believe that if they do not enjoy sex (whatever acts their male partner wishes to perform or have performed on him) that it's a)her fault for being too up tight or b) that's just how things are for women, especially if they aren't very experienced, are in peri-menopause or are post menopausal or premenstrual or ovulating or menstruating or during pregnancy or after pregnancy or during breastfeeding or....whatever. Not his problem.

Whenever there is any research done for hormonal birth control options for men, there is a great deal of concern about any potential side effects. And there is still no good hormonal male birth control.

Read almost any magazine directed at a female audience and there will be multiple articles about how she can please her man. In and out of bed. Not so many about how she can enhance her sex life and virtually none about how HE can enhance her sex life.

I think that there is no longer a print edition of Playboy(?) but back in the day when I used to read it during babysitting gigs after the kids were asleep, there were plenty of articles about how women could help men enjoy sex, what women could do and how much women liked whatever it was that a man was doing. Very little about actually pleasing a woman.

Absolutely nothing in any of the other male oriented magazines I used to read (Field and Stream, etc.) even acknowledged that women exist. Or exist beyond preparing whatever mean the man brought home for his dinner.
 
I think we could have the conversation about dating men and bad sex, without mentioning a particular man. The unknown woman could have said that she went our with a celebrity and they had bad sex, because she felt pressured. She could have said that men and women need to talk about this issue and try to understand each other's needs and wants when it comes to casual sex. I already said I would love to hear a much younger woman's opinion on this topic. I had my share of casual sex when I was much younger. It was all bad so I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort. I never had the impulse to out any of my partners, and I don't think that had a thing to do with the times. If a man has bad sex with a woman, should he out her in a public venue?

I certainly don't want to go back to the days when women were supposed to act like Puritans unless they wanted to be labeled as sluts. On the other hand, I do believe that there are some biological differences between the sexuality of men and women. There are a lot of problems on college campuses these days if what women are saying is correct.

Yes and no.

I think that what happened in Ansari's apartment was more than just bad sex. It was unwanted sex. It was sex to get it over with, to satisfy him so she could leave.

Of course she should have spoken up.

But he should have paid a lot more attention to her responses to his advances. Or lack thereof.

Yes, it is much more common for women to feel compelled to stay for bad sex with ordinary humans than with famous people. So?

Should Ansari be shielded from public mention because people really really like him? DIdn't help Franken whose offenses were far less than what Ansari is accused of. Or Garrison Keillor whose offenses have only been hinted at and don't seem to have actually included sex, sexual touching or threats or attempts to affect someone's career.

Even Louis C.K. didn't actually touch any of the women he masturbated in front of.

Maybe the woman should have known that going to Ansari's apartment meant that sex was implied. Would I have, at that age? I dunno. Probably but maybe not. Not if I had zero romantic or sexual interest in the guy. Not if I assumed that we would get to know each other before progressing to physical intimacy.

Why do only his assumptions matter?

I do know that it is entirely possible for one person to view something as a date and another person to think that they are just friends. People don't always understand situations.

Guys: If a girl you don't know very well prefers to give you a blow job to having intercourse with you, she doesn't really want either. She's just trying to get out of what she sees as a bad situation. You may think that's OK because you got a blow job, but it's not OK. And no, she didn't enjoy it. She's glad it's over.
 
Without wanting to sound too much like an apologist, or sweep any issues under the carpet, or gainsay anything that anyone else has said, I think it's fair to offer some balance. Also, note that I am speaking from the UK, not USA.

When it comes to medical funding, for example, male prostate cancer only gets a fraction of the funding and attention paid to breast cancer. Suicide (especially prevalent among young men) could also be said to be under-addressed. So, I think the case for unequal medical attention is complicated and probably not due as much to sexism as is sometimes implied, including in the OP article. That is not to say that there is no sexism involved.

Regarding women's magazines on the topic of sex, I think that there is again a mixed picture. While there is still an encoded message to women to spend money to look good to please a man, there is also more of an emphasis on women asserting themselves and specifically on enjoying sex for themselves. Interesting article on the issue here (a study done using Cosmo magazine):
https://kinseyconfidential.org/cosmo-impacts-womens-sexual-attitudes/

Away from that study, one can also read in Cosmo: "Sometimes, let's face it, you might as well do it yourself - which is just one of the reasons more women are using vibrators than ever before". This is to a large extent about improving man-free, self-pleasure empowerment.

So, luckily, things have improved, especially in 'western' developed countries. And to some extent, I think that the issues, in articles such as that in the OP, are too simplified and generalised ('men' this and 'women' that, etc) and sometimes overstated.

I'm also not sure about there being very few products beyond deodorant and shampoo designed to make men more appealing to women.

Tangentally, the inequality in sexual situations is not entirely unanalagous to the related issue of equal pay. If I had £10 for every time the figure of 18% disparity in average pay between men and women was trotted out, either in the media or by politicians, I'd be writing this post from my private yacht moored in St Tropez. It seems quite clear to me that while there's probably a small pay gap, it's nothing even close to 18% (and probably closer to 4-6%) when all relevant, non-sexist factors are taken into account.

The problem with disparaging simplifications, overstatements and generalisations on this topic is that many men metaphorically then put their fingers in their ears. And that's a pity, because imo when it comes to gender egalitarianism, there are still things which do need to be addressed (such as the pay gap, and the issue of sexual harassment and bad sex and so on) because in some ways things are getting better and in others they're getting worse, and so we men do need to listen, to not put our fingers in our ears. And again imho, I do think, generalising briefly, that it's men's attitudes, more so than women's, which need to change if there is to be more progress, and I think it's mostly up to men to enact this.
 
Last edited:
And I am not buying this "biological differences" bullcrap. Sure, some men are aggressive douchebags with no desire to please their partner, but so are some women. The differences between individuals of the same gender are so big that to use gender as an excuse does not make sense.

It's a question of degree, isn't it? It's also a question of wording. 'Excuse'? Generally no. 'Mitigation'? Sometimes, up to a point only. 'Explanatory reason'? Generally yes, imo, if it's not overstated, which it can be. Equally, it can be understated. We are, to some extent, just like other animals (though arguably less so) prisoners, of both our biology and our environmental influences, perhaps especially the ones we absorbed when we were very little.

Imo, it's almost impossible, as it is in almost any other sphere of study, to avoid generalisations, just for statistical analysis. On the other hand, I agree that generalisations can go too far, or be trotted out as if they could readily be applied in complex individual situations.

What happens in some discussions, it seems to me, is that people, of either sex or any gender, have a disposition to take sides and perhaps dare I suggest it, be prone to knee-jerk reactions. Psychological gender neutrality seems to be hard to achieve. So when for example a man reads about how 'men are (or generally are) this or that not-nice thing' the male reader (and I suffer from this myself) may tend to think it means or is aimed at him, when it might not. Or, it might mean him, and he is unaware that it does apply to him, at least partly. It's very tricky. Many of us ( male and female) have an undeservedly enhanced view of ourselves. And the male ego is widely (and up to a point deservedly imo) thought to be somewhat more fragile (I might even add selfish) than is commonly admitted. There's me generalising again of course.

I will say this (with apologies in advance for being about to go on and on at length, lol), in my own personal life I have learned a few things, sometimes the hard way, including that I did not appreciate many of the trials and tribulations that the average girl or woman goes through, that I under-appreciated others, and that I probably still have a way to go. I learned some of these things by having a wife and others by having and helping to raise daughters to adulthood.

For example, as a young dad and husband, I did not fully or even nearly appreciate just what physical sacrifices my wife made in having children, both during the pregnancies and after, and how this affected her attitude to sex afterwards, and it caused some serious, ongoing and even long-term problems between us, some of which would be generally relevant to the OP issues.

And that's just the physical/physiological issues. The psychological issues were arguably as unfortunate, and I don't just mean her body-image problems and sensitivities (which I again failed to take properly into account) particularly as they related to her genitalia and vagina (neither birth was a Caesarean section) but also, I was unprepared for my relationship role to change (especially after 1st child) from 'significant and exclusive partner/lover' to 'support staff further down the pecking order of love'. For her part, she may have unrealistically expected that I would know and understand certain things, and be ready and able to cope with or adjust to them, which in an ideal world, I would have, if I were an ideal man. So there were some things she hadn't appreciated either.

I also completely under-appreciated how much her being a working mother (full time employment after maternity leave) would result in her attitude to sex being adversely affected by plain and ordinary physical fatigue, over a period of many years.

I believe that in Denmark, for example, there is more emphasis on preparing both prospective parents, as early as possible, for the shit that is literally going to hit the fan when what has been described as the little infant bombs go off in their relationship, with after-effects that last for at least 20 years or more in most cases.

Oh and while I'm indulging in self-therapeutic personal confessions and virtue-signalling (and by the way I do freely if belatedly and after a lot of resistance admit and apologise to my wife now for all these shortcomings and try hard to make it up to her) another thing I (mentally) did was to allow too much of the psychological burden to bear on my wife's shoulders when it came to parental responsibilities, in a myriad of often subtle ways. There were too many ways in which I half-consciously at best thought of the children (and many household chores as well) as being more 'hers' than mine or ours. And I did this while thinking that I was a lot better, much more of a 'new man', than my male peers (which I probably was and am) and much better than my own father (which I almost certainly was and am) without realising that it was not enough. It didn't help that I had depression for decades, before and after being married and having children, luckily no longer.

In my defence, some of this also had to do with her not untypical (in my experience) dramatic (and unexpected, even to her) change from being 'my partner' to becoming 'doting mother' which may have had a lot to do with her own upbringing and biology, not to mention the pressure to conform with what her mother and three older sisters appeared to expect. To some extent, she 'left herself behind' and fell in love with the idea of self-sacrificial motherhood and it fulfilling her (ie filling a hole in her existential experience of life) to the point that she really wanted a third, late child, when I didn't. I wanted her back. And we didn't have the third child, I denied her that, and that caused problems too.

That is more about sex as it relates to marriage/parenting than to dating of course. I guess that up until now, most comments have been more about the latter, perhaps.

Anyhows, that's my personal, anecdotal tuppenceworth. I have a feeling I'm not all that unusual. Though I doubt I'm exactly the same as another man and probably different to many. Maybe it chimes, in some ways, for some other men or women here.
 
Last edited:
The potentially valid point of the article is greatly undermined by the author's stupidity and dogmatic ideology that undermines any rational analysis.

The following destroys all her credibility:

[P] "PubMed has 393 clinical trials studying dyspareunia. Vaginismus? 10. Vulvodynia? 43 [conditions related to pain experienced by females during sex]. Erectile dysfunction? 1,954.

That's right: PubMed has almost five times as many clinical trials on male sexual pleasure as it has on female sexual pain. And why? Because we live in a culture that sees female pain as normal and male pleasure as a right."[/P]

No, it is due to the obvious fact that clinical trials are paid for by drug companies, and there is far more profit potential in ED drugs. This is due to two other facts. First, is that erectile dysfunction prevents intercourse from happening at all, which greatly impacts the well being of both men and women. Intercourse-preventing chronic ED is far more common the chronic vaginal pain that is so severe it prevents intercourse. Second, almost all those ED clinical trials are to test to the effectiveness of patented drugs specifically designed to treat ED. The drug companies are the one's paying for the research, and vaginal pain is not a specific problem that can be treated with a targeted drug. It is a collection of symptoms due to highly variable causes. Most treatment entails behavioral changes that have no profit opportunity. Those treatments that involve drugs, involve already established medicines that serve a more general functions such as yeast infection creams, lubricants, or hormone therapy. Thus, far less need or motive for clinical trials.

This is a big gripe of mine with most journalism being written these days. Journalists are increasingly writing to appeal to their reader's prejudices because no one wants to hear 'actually, maybe this issue is slightly more complex and nuanced than we all think', they just want their viewpoints validated which drives social sharing and the profits of the publication.

Just to make a point about erectile dysfunction and Viagra and its related drugs, yes, it's true that a lot of research money has gone into their development, probably much more than into similar female related problems.

For every Viagra prescription, there is a man who wants a woman to have pleasure. No man ever spent $20 on a pill so he could have a more satisfying masturbatory experience.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. You're assuming that every man who gets a Viagra prescription is making efforts to ensure that his partner is satisfied, rather than ensuring that he himself experiences satisfaction. You're presenting a false dichotomy wherein sex is either mutually pleasurable and satisfying for both parties or there is single-person masturbation.

I've had sex where my partner just wanted to reach orgasm and didn't really give a crap about whether I did as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom