A thought on Afghanistan

[DrZoidberg]

China's silk road? This ignores the existence of airplanes and the Internet. China doesn't need Afghanistan to have presences in the Middle East or Africans nations like they already have. And Afghanistan isn't really that close to the Middle East... road wise. That is kind of part of our problem.

But I see the alt-right, Biden is in the pocket of China mantra has stuck with RVonse.

Railway is by far more economical than airplane transport. Especially for heavy goods. A large barrier to a cross continental train connection is the red tape. Not everything China does is evil. I think this sounds like an awesome initiative. Obviously this will also benefit China. But it will of course benefit any country along the route.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But the Chinese silk road initiative isn't in conflict with any country. Certainly not the US supported Afghani government. It's an initiative that benefits everybody. Why would the Taleban be more cooperative than the US supported Afghani government?

The Chinese are amused somewhat by America's bungling of the first few days of their retreat, but they are definitely NOT in favor of the US withdrawal.
It leaves China with the towelybangers on their doorstep - a headache they don't need - and disentangles the US from the situation, freeing assets to deal with stuff that actually matters to China, such as the South China Sea, their economic incursion and insidious takeover of the African continent etc..
The New Silk Road Initiative (the land based part of which is mainly a tourist attraction) is hardly of any importance at all, except ocean transport element which has nothing - zero, zip, nada - to do with Afghanistan.
Of course it is something for right wing propagandists to invent stories about, and they have a ready audience in the credulous RVonses of the world, who will lap up anything they feed to them.

Exactly. China has their Uigur unrest situation.

 

[Patooka]

But the Chinese silk road initiative isn't in conflict with any country. Certainly not the US supported Afghani government. It's an initiative that benefits everybody. Why would the Taleban be more cooperative than the US supported Afghani government?

You are pissing up a rope...battling alt-reality wing nut sites and YouTube videos rational, built upon layers of bizarre fantasy constructs.

I don't understand what you are for or against. Or even what you think about the Silk Road

China buying up debt and influence in South East Asia and Pacific Island nations for starters. A fantastic way of putting a thumb on the scale for mineral rights in the South China Sea. Also, the exact opposite of a "benefits everybody" kind of situation.

If that is too esoteric a post for you let me spell it out for you; China's Belt and Road initiative is colonialism updated for the 21st century. So yes, far from being as benign or benevolent as you try to portray.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't understand what you are for or against. Or even what you think about the Silk Road

China buying up debt and influence in South East Asia and Pacific Island nations for starters. A fantastic way of putting a thumb on the scale for mineral rights in the South China Sea. Also, the exact opposite of a "benefits everybody" kind of situation.

If that is too esoteric a post for you let me spell it out for you; China's Belt and Road initiative is colonialism updated for the 21st century. So yes, far from being as benign or benevolent as you try to portray.

I'm not saying it can't be used for evil. But the initiative as proposed will be a net benefit to all of those involved.

Let's criticize China for the naughty things they do. And let's applaud them for the good things they do. If we don't, they have no incentive to behave.

That was Mao's big insight. The west was going to squeeze China no matter what, so China had to find a way to become self sufficient. So we got the Great Leap forward. An absolute and preventable disaster, as well as severing all trade ties with China. Trade ties we could have used to put pressure on China.

There's an expression called "pick your battles". The silk road initiative is IMHO a stupid battle.

 

[Patooka]

I don't understand what you are for or against. Or even what you think about the Silk Road

China buying up debt and influence in South East Asia and Pacific Island nations for starters. A fantastic way of putting a thumb on the scale for mineral rights in the South China Sea. Also, the exact opposite of a "benefits everybody" kind of situation.

If that is too esoteric a post for you let me spell it out for you; China's Belt and Road initiative is colonialism updated for the 21st century. So yes, far from being as benign or benevolent as you try to portray.

I'm not saying it can't be used for evil. But the initiative as proposed will be a net benefit to all of those involved.

Fiji, The Solomon Islands, Tonga, Palau, Papua New Guinea and the Philippines think your assessment is complete horseshit. Quite a few countries in northern Africa a having their autonomy compromised as well. Like I said - 21st century colonialism.

 

[funinspace]

But the Chinese silk road initiative isn't in conflict with any country. Certainly not the US supported Afghani government. It's an initiative that benefits everybody. Why would the Taleban be more cooperative than the US supported Afghani government?

You are pissing up a rope...battling alt-reality wing nut sites and YouTube videos rational, built upon layers of bizarre fantasy constructs.

I don't understand what you are for or against. Or even what you think about the Silk Road

I'm against the propagation of alt-reality noise as if it has any logical or coherent argument, as it seeks to defame the sitting president with lies and strangely distorted collections of random bits of information. RVonse seems to need scapegoats for the failures of our country, whether it is the deep state, China, or some other boogieman. The US needs to own its own natural issues and problems and work to make a better life for Americans, and not blame other countries or fictitious cabals.

As for the BRI (silk road), I somewhat neutral on China's effort in general. I somewhat share Patooka's concerns about China using debt to trap impoverished countries. At the same time, I'd say that there is many positive things within it.

More generally (and not at Patooka), I find the majority of arguments against China far too shrill and over the top. Far too many (at least in the US) are trying to make china into the new boogieman. For example, the idea that they are bent on western style world domination is comical...let me know when they break into double digit foreign military bases...compared to the 700 or so the US has. At the same time, we will need to get used to the very probable idea that China will become the new 800lb gorilla in the world over the next 10-20 years, and the US will only be the 600lb gorilla. By creating our overgrown boogieman, we are neutralizing our ability to address China's bad behavior in HK, the Uigur situation, or the South China sea. I find it sadly humorous to criticize China for a 21st century colonialism, when the US can hardly go a decade without blowing up a country into anarchy. The US is willing to spend 10s of billions to blow up nations, but is miserly about aiding impoverished nations. The large majority of US aid is in the form of...yeah military aid. And generally, as long as the nation in question is in the US pocket, we don't give a rats ass about their behavior.

 

[RVonse]

RVonse seems to need scapegoats for the failures of our country,

The de-industrialization of the US did not happen because of greedy capitalists and it did not happen just by random. The CCP entangled a critical mass of US leadership in business deals both legal and illegal so now US leadership cannot make a move to hate the CCP or lose their credibility or wealth prospects. Yes, leadership in congress, universities, media, state governments, and corporations fell for the trap. The CCP knew greed was the one great weakness of all these leaders. Essentially, one big Trojan horse that has already released its payload with more to come.

If you read "The Art of War" written in China thousands of years ago...you would understand The best wars are won long before your opponent knows...

And no. The silk road by itself is not a big deal. But all of these things in combination...the movement of manufacturing from US to China, the one world island trade network...all serve to make China the next super power all at the US expense. Yes it is a zero sum game. And even all the above withstanding, could be regarded as acceptable... excepting that China is not a democracy (unlike the US).

 

[Elixir]

Yes it is a zero sum game.

If it was a zero sum game we would still be transporting things by sailing ships, camel caravans and mule trains.
Yours is a throwback mentality. And that goes a long way toward explaining right wing beliefs in economy fairies, conspiracy "theories" and the demons of their superstitions.

And even all the above withstanding, could be regarded as acceptable... excepting that China is not a democracy (unlike the US).

Oh don't worry so much - your conserrvotard cohorts are fixing it even as I type; with a little luck and some more destruction of voting rights, the Trumpublicans will make China look like a liberal democracy by 2025.

(Did you know that Trump repeatedly asked to be allowed to shoot protestors?)

 

[RVonse]

The US needs to own its own natural issues and problems and work to make a better life for Americans

Then it is past time to stop apologizing for corruption of our elected officials. No more insider deals especially with countries who are not allies. We should not even have to talk about Hunter Biden and his laptop...

 

[Toni]

RVonse seems to need scapegoats for the failures of our country,

The de-industrialization of the US did not happen because of greedy capitalists and it did not happen just by random. The CCP entangled a critical mass of US leadership in business deals both legal and illegal so now US leadership cannot make a move to hate the CCP or lose their credibility or wealth prospects. Yes, leadership in congress, universities, media, state governments, and corporations fell for the trap.

It is sad that you do not see the inherent contradiction in the above.

 

[Toni]

The US needs to own its own natural issues and problems and work to make a better life for Americans

Then it is past time to stop apologizing for corruption of our elected officials. No more insider deals especially with countries who are not allies. We should not even have to talk about Hunter Biden and his laptop...

And yet--here you are, reminding everybody of the nothing burger of Hunter Biden's laptop and ignoring the enormous corruption of Trump, his family and his entire administration, as well as that of McConnell and his wife and others......

Rather than apologize, we need to prevent and where we fail to prevent, penalize and prosecute such corruption.

 

[funinspace]

RVonse seems to need scapegoats for the failures of our country,

The de-industrialization of the US did not happen because of greedy capitalists and it did not happen just by random.

Actually, 'random' is far closer to reality than some alt-reality fantasy version of trojan generational conspiracies. The US 'de-industrialization' as you call it, happened due to many things. How can you ignore automation/computerization of manufacturing in the equation? It is a complex thing. The lack of UHC in the US hurts US manufacturers when compared to German ones. When I went to a state University some 40 years ago it cost my parents about $3,000 per year in today's dollars. Right wing retards now control the state I grew up in and have largely stopped funding higher education, so that university now costs the students about $25,000 each year. The US military-complex has been bleeding our country/economy for decades on end with stupid wars and games. The military-complex massive cost is probably 80% on the neocon Repugs, over the Democrats. None of this is due to those dastardly CCP schemers.

The CCP entangled a critical mass of US leadership in business deals both legal and illegal so now US leadership cannot make a move to hate the CCP or lose their credibility or wealth prospects. Yes, leadership in congress, universities, media, state governments, and corporations fell for the trap. The CCP knew greed was the one great weakness of all these leaders. Essentially, one big Trojan horse that has already released its payload with more to come.

Yet even Clownstick's mad games with trade with China didn't bring jobs back to Merica. The few jobs that moved, went to other SE Asian countries and places like Mexico. No evil Chinese plot is needed. Globalization would have shifted most of the low cost work to any number of the dozens of nations out there trying to get ahead.

Besides, I'd rather have American jobs competing with the exports of the EU, South Korea, and places like Japan. How do you think we are going to make it work trying to compete with the 3rd world making cheap shit with US labor? I'd rather have American workers compete with BMW, Toyota, Samsung, LG, TSMC, Technivorm, et.al. When we bought a quality coffee brewer, the good one we found was manufactured in the Netherlands. When we wanted a top quality kitchen knife, it came from Japan. We couldn't find any quality American options.

If you read "The Art of War" written in China thousands of years ago...you would understand The best wars are won long before your opponent knows...

ROTFLMA...I am having a hard time imaging that you have read such a book. I haven't read it, but I do understand some of the basic points made in it.

And no. The silk road by itself is not a big deal. But all of these things in combination...the movement of manufacturing from US to China, the one world island trade network...all serve to make China the next super power all at the US expense. Yes it is a zero sum game.

I'm not surprised that your are a Malthusian fan (like Elixir already alluded to), but no it is not a zero sum game, that is so 18th century thinking.

And even all the above withstanding, could be regarded as acceptable... excepting that China is not a democracy (unlike the US).

And Clownstick and his supporters wanted(want) to turn the US into a fascist state...

 

[RVonse]

RVonse seems to need scapegoats for the failures of our country,

The de-industrialization of the US did not happen because of greedy capitalists and it did not happen just by random. The CCP entangled a critical mass of US leadership in business deals both legal and illegal so now US leadership cannot make a move to hate the CCP or lose their credibility or wealth prospects. Yes, leadership in congress, universities, media, state governments, and corporations fell for the trap.

It is sad that you do not see the inherent contradiction in the above.

To be clear, when I wrote "greedy capitalists" I am referring to the capitalists in the private sector only. Not the greedy capitalists in government who should not be in there for that purpose.

 

[funinspace]

The US needs to own its own natural issues and problems and work to make a better life for Americans

Then it is past time to stop apologizing for corruption of our elected officials. No more insider deals especially with countries who are not allies. We should not even have to talk about Hunter Biden and his laptop...

And yet--here you are, reminding everybody of the nothing burger of Hunter Biden's laptop and ignoring the enormous corruption of Trump, his family and his entire administration, as well as that of McConnell and his wife and others......

Rather than apologize, we need to prevent and where we fail to prevent, penalize and prosecute such corruption.

Ah, another window into the drivel RVonse reads. Somehow the couple dozen Ivanka trademarks that the CCP approved after the 2016 election never get mentioned.

 

[RVonse]

nothing burger of Hunter Biden's laptop

When you are as dumb as Hunter Biden and making as much as he did, it is not a nothing burger. It is a hamburger that perhaps can not be proven or it is a hamburger that is legal. But it is NOT a nothing burger.

Rather than apologize, we need to prevent and where we fail to prevent, penalize and prosecute such corruption.

100 Agreed! I can remember a junk dealer who actually got locked out of his new home by the IRS. They had yellow tape strapped over the door of his home and the only proof that the IRS had of tax avoidance was that he could not have possibly bought such a thing with what he had reported on his return. Why don't we do this with our politicians who are millionaires on a $150k salary?

 

[RVonse]

And yet--here you are, reminding everybody of the nothing burger of Hunter Biden's laptop and ignoring the enormous corruption of Trump, his family and his entire administration, as well as that of McConnell and his wife and others......

Rather than apologize, we need to prevent and where we fail to prevent, penalize and prosecute such corruption.

Ah, another window into the drivel RVonse reads. Somehow the couple dozen Ivanka trademarks that the CCP approved after the 2016 election never get mentioned.

It is corruption too, no question about it. But the difference.....and it is a huge difference is that Ivanka was not in a position of government when the lions share of the real corruption was taking place. She could not have possibly had anything to do with the offshoring of US manufacturing. You would have much difficulty stating Trump would have changed his tariffs on China based on what Ivanka did or not get from the Chinese. Especially when everyone else in government did not even want the tariffs!

 

[funinspace]

And yet--here you are, reminding everybody of the nothing burger of Hunter Biden's laptop and ignoring the enormous corruption of Trump, his family and his entire administration, as well as that of McConnell and his wife and others......

Rather than apologize, we need to prevent and where we fail to prevent, penalize and prosecute such corruption.

Ah, another window into the drivel RVonse reads. Somehow the couple dozen Ivanka trademarks that the CCP approved after the 2016 election never get mentioned.

It is corruption too, no question about it. But the difference.....and it is a huge difference is that Ivanka was not in a position of government when the lions share of the real corruption was taking place. She could not have possibly had anything to do with the offshoring of US manufacturing.

Neither has Hunter ever been in government, nor has it ever been shown that Hunter has the ear of Joe Biden when it comes to policy. But it is telling that you seem to be stuck on this irrelevant side show, with deeply imbedded and factless conspiracies. Yet, when those trademarks were approved, it was quite clear that she was deeply involved in the Clownstick transition.

You would have much difficulty stating Trump would have changed his tariffs on China based on what Ivanka did or not get from the Chinese. Especially when everyone else in government did not even want the tariffs!

You mean those tariffs that cost every day Americans in their pocket book? But again this side show has nothing to do with the price of cheese in Japan...

 

[RVonse]

You mean those tariffs that cost every day Americans in their pocket book?

https://www.nwitimes.com/business/l...cle_457f9876-917f-5d20-a5a8-8d8808cf1b58.html

If you live in Oregon you probably would never have any idea that middle class workers prospects are improving dramatically in the rust belt. All because of Trump's tariffs.

To be fair about this though, Biden did not take Trump's tariffs down as I expected he would. So he deserves that much credit.

 

[Elixir]

The US needs to own its own natural issues and problems and work to make a better life for Americans

Then it is past time to stop apologizing for corruption of our elected officials. No more insider deals especially with countries who are not allies.

Great! Can we start by helping Scotland with the laundered Russian funds that were used to purchase Turnberry?
How about the derelict property Trump bought for 40m and sold a year or two later for 90m, to a Russian oligarch?
How about his insider contracts to build his vanity wall?

We should not even have to talk about Hunter Biden and his laptop...

Oh, but you do have to talk about Hunter's supposed laptop. That, and similar inventions are all you have.
It's not like all Trump's efforts to blackmail foreign leaders into providing dirt actually yielded anything, so you have nothing else to talk about.

 

[funinspace]

You mean those tariffs that cost every day Americans in their pocket book?

https://www.nwitimes.com/business/l...cle_457f9876-917f-5d20-a5a8-8d8808cf1b58.html

If you live in Oregon you probably would never have any idea that middle class workers prospects are improving dramatically in the rust belt. All because of Trump's tariffs.

To be fair about this though, Biden did not take Trump's tariffs down as I expected he would. So he deserves that much credit.

Ok, US Steel workers are getting a nice bonus, but nuttin about correlation in the article. Maybe you should also credit the CHInuh Virus as well...

Impact of tariff:
https://www.brookings.edu/policy202...nefit-american-workers-and-national-security/

While estimates vary, economic analyses suggest the average American household has paid somewhere from several hundred up to a thousand dollars or more per year thanks to higher consumer prices attributable to the tariffs.
<snip>
Yet, overall, when economists have attempted to add up the net effect of Trump’s tariffs on jobs, any gains in importing-competing sectors appear to have been more than offset by losses in industries that use imported inputs and face retaliation on their foreign exports. And even those jobs that have been created have come at great cost: studies suggest American consumers paid about $817,000 in higher prices attributable to the tariffs for every job created in the washing machine industry and $900,000 in the steel industry. While policy interventions to support manufacturing jobs may be warranted, there are cheaper ways to do so.

Steel prices and causation thinking, and a real Democratic/Biden driven infrastructure big bill should help as well, and far more than tariffs:
https://fortune.com/2021/07/08/steel-prices-2021-going-up-bubble/

"What happened, which is similar to lumber, demand during COVID-19 was stronger than first anticipated because of switches in consumption patterns. Instead of paying for experiences and vacations, they were buying a new lawn mower, buying a new car, or white goods like appliances—which are steel intensive," Thorsten Schier, a metals expert at Fastmarkets, tells Fortune.