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According to Robert Sapolsky, human free will does not exist

I don't want to get involved in the argument at this point, but I do want to mention two things that some of you might enjoy. NOVA had two episodes about the brain that you can stream. One is about free will. The other one is very interesting as it explains how vision works and a few other things, that I didn't know.

Then, if you are a subscriber to Scientific American, it has an interesting article which I think was in the June edition. If you still have a Facebook account, you might be able to read it there without a subscription, plus SA allows non subscribers to read one free article. I read the article this morning and it discussed both hard determinism and .compatibilism. I thought it was interesting, and perhaps some of you might find it has some info to add to this endless discussion. :)

Have fun!
Do you have a link to that article?
Ihttps://www.scientificamerican.com/...86pMt9Q7XXrazwxqM8IQBgF_mZLInVXOWi_8vTgTUeigI

I think the above link is it. I did a very fast search as I'm on my way out.
Gah, need a subscription. Can you gift that link?

Just from glimpsing the title before the paywall went up, it looks to me like the article is about superdeterminism.

Same problem, but people can Google  superdeterminism to figure out what it is about, but not how it relates to free will. As usual, scientists tend to toss around the term as if everyone agreed that it was about freedom from causality rather than freedom from forced choices. Note that the verb "force" means the same thing as "cause", but with the added presupposition that there is some kind of resistance that needs to be overcome in order for the result to come about. As I said in my last post, the concept of "responsiblity" is kind of a litmus test for free will in that agents and observers will reject the notion of a free will if there is undue resistance to the agent's intended or preferred choice.
The hard determinist generally wants to substitute predestination in place of determination by process, so as to pretend there is no meaningful choice, because if the outcome was determined "before" the visible effect, in fact before ANY visible effect, then they don't have to feel guilty about their apparent contributions to that outcome as a function of who they are.

Nobody is responsible if 'the devil' made you do it, if you wanted that salad but your mouth against your bidding formed the words "steak please" and couldn't ever do otherwise.

My estimation is that it really had nothing to do with reality at all, but a desire for some to invent a doctrine in which they can justify the act of forgiving themselves for everything they do.

Otherwise, why would they care so much as to create and circulate such arguments as to the nonexistence of their own agency in participating to construct the future?
 
I don't want to get involved in the argument at this point, but I do want to mention two things that some of you might enjoy. NOVA had two episodes about the brain that you can stream. One is about free will. The other one is very interesting as it explains how vision works and a few other things, that I didn't know.

Then, if you are a subscriber to Scientific American, it has an interesting article which I think was in the June edition. If you still have a Facebook account, you might be able to read it there without a subscription, plus SA allows non subscribers to read one free article. I read the article this morning and it discussed both hard determinism and .compatibilism. I thought it was interesting, and perhaps some of you might find it has some info to add to this endless discussion. :)

Have fun!
Do you have a link to that article?
Ihttps://www.scientificamerican.com/...86pMt9Q7XXrazwxqM8IQBgF_mZLInVXOWi_8vTgTUeigI

I think the above link is it. I did a very fast search as I'm on my way out.
Gah, need a subscription. Can you gift that link?

Just from glimpsing the title before the paywall went up, it looks to me like the article is about superdeterminism.

Same problem, but people can Google  superdeterminism to figure out what it is about, but not how it relates to free will. As usual, scientists tend to toss around the term as if everyone agreed that it was about freedom from causality rather than freedom from forced choices. Note that the verb "force" means the same thing as "cause", but with the added presupposition that there is some kind of resistance that needs to be overcome in order for the result to come about. As I said in my last post, the concept of "responsiblity" is kind of a litmus test for free will in that agents and observers will reject the notion of a free will if there is undue resistance to the agent's intended or preferred choice.
The hard determinist generally wants to substitute predestination in place of determination by process, so as to pretend there is no meaningful choice, because if the outcome was determined "before" the visible effect, in fact before ANY visible effect, then they don't have to feel guilty about their apparent contributions to that outcome as a function of who they are.

Nobody is responsible if 'the devil' made you do it, if you wanted that salad but your mouth against your bidding formed the words "steak please" and couldn't ever do otherwise.

My estimation is that it really had nothing to do with reality at all, but a desire for some to invent a doctrine in which they can justify the act of forgiving themselves for everything they do.

Otherwise, why would they care so much as to create and circulate such arguments as to the nonexistence of their own agency in participating to construct the future?

I don't know, but that is the question that they need to answer. Should people be held responsible for their actions or not? I could not tell you at this point how DBT would answer that yes/no question. I suspect that he would not answer it with a simple yes or no. OTOH, he doesn't seem to want to get anywhere near a discussion of responsibility--praiseworthiness or blame--for an agent's actions. So it is up to him whether or not to enlighten us.
 
I think that you [DBT] just do not understand the compatibilist concept of free will.

He certainly doesn't understand compatibilism. His criticisms of compatibilism indisputably confirm this.
Responsibility is something of a litmus test for free will--a deliberate, unimpeded action by an agent.

For me, compatibilist freedom is quite simply freedom from specific morally relevant constraints/influences - the kinds of constraints/influences that we all take into account when assessing the degree to which an agent can be held morally/legally responsible for their actions/inactions.

The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.
 
Of course there is.
No there isn't. There is stuff "casual" on the inside of the boundary of our skin, but casual participation does not make for "necessitation".

The fact is, you believe in something so ridiculous as "predestination", and seem incapable of differentiating normal causes with manipulation.

You truly are the black knight. Everyone here recognizes that you've got no arms or legs.

For heavens sake, you are just making this up......compatibalism is a matter of how compatibilists define free will and how they define determinism.
Go on talking O Emperor Who Overpaid for their "magical" and strangely drafty (but very light) new outfit.

You seem to conflate "destination" with "predestination" quite readily. Your inability to cleave these two concepts is unfortunate to say the least.

Determinism says that postconditions are determined by preconditions and there is a single path between these. It says nothing about the "necessity" of some original condition, and therefore nothing about the "necessity" of the post condition.

It is the "necessity" that is an illusion here, because it is only "necessary" with respect to some given initial configuration, which itself ends up being revealed as arbitrary.


I conflate nothing.

Compatibilists give a definition of determinism, and that is what I refer to.

You should have grasped at least that much by now.

For example;
''However, in order for determinism to be true, it must include all events. For example, determinism cannot exclude the effects of natural forces, like volcanoes and tidal waves or a meteor hitting the Earth. Determinism cannot exclude the effects of biological organisms that transform their environments, like tree seedlings changing bare land into a forest. Determinism cannot exclude the effects of deliberate choices, like when the chef prepares me the salad that I chose for lunch.

All of these events, including my choices, were causally necessary from any prior point in time. And they all proceeded without deviation from the Big Bang to this moment.'' - Marvin Edwards.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.
I am not so sure. In fact I would rather disagree entirely.

I think there is a process and a phenomena going on which science can be used to assign "tokens" to, and put to a linguistic description. Science and philosophy in general are all about that.

This is why math is so important here, and why we need to actually get down to the nuts and the bolts, the foundations, of the discussion: the primitive natural concepts of goals, responses, causal chains, and so on.

Once we are there, once we have identified exactly and only the real operations within the system, this is the bag of tokens which we can find, combine or otherwise work with to see if the ancient forms apply.

This is a very similar exercise to the one that gave us computers, in drilling down on logic problems until we found "switches", and then
"AND" and "OR" as operations of them, and then from these built up into switches, and sets of switches, and classes and locations, and then eventually proper nouns, places, and other things such that they may be systematically represented.

For "free will" to be real or emergent rather than "arbitrary and make believe", it MUST sit near those basic tokens and primitive concepts. It needs to be in the domain of the "enumerations", and "integers" and "functions" and "switches", rather than existing in the domain of arbitrary class definitions, if it is to be considered real, and this means that it cannot be considered from an anthropocentric position, because that sits above the level of arbitrary classes.

We can debate the appropriateness of some selection of some phenomena or primitive concepts in this assignment of terms as "not a scientific pursuit", however it is absolutely an act of science to take the junky understandings of the "classical world", the "ancient forms", and find where in this well-founded view they find their first expression.

To that end, it doesn't even really matter what we call it or if we call it anything, however for the sake of being understood outside this world of precise jargon and obfuscated tokens, we have to actually undertake a process of naming, and this process is scientific.

I have gone through the process of naming assemblies and obfuscated structures a few times, both for fun and for work. If I couldn't do it well or didn't understand the process or if the process wasn't sane and functional, Jarhyn's Shape Builder (a Minecraft mod) never would have existed, and a certain 787 simulator never would have finished its development. I really do know what I'm talking about in terms of translation between natural phenomenal languages.

To understand this, I would encourage anyone to write a simple program in Java, obfuscate the source and compile it, then without looking at the obfuscation key, re-name the structures you see. Try doing it with someone else's Java program. Either your language works to describe the process to an observer or it doesn't. That's what I'm interested in: discovering where the weakly defined terms of ancient philosophy find ground truth in systems theory.
 
...
The need for a link wasn't to learn who the author was. I managed to Google that much. It was to check your source for accuracy and context. In any case, I made my point based on what you quoted. I still find it hard to believe that you scrounged up a poorly written essay by someone with such weak credentials.

You focus on the author, yet fail to address what is being said. If something is true, it is true regardless of who points it out, or how it is written.
Perhaps the article could have been better written, but neither that or who wrote it has much bearing on the validity of what was explained.
BA in philosophy is a qualification, but even if it isn't, what was said made valid points against compatibalism.

If you are quoting someone as an authority on free will and compatibilism, then their qualifications do matter. Nevertheless, I also focused on what he said, contrary to what you claim here. Nothing he wrote changed or helped to explain anything you've already said over and over, but it would have made more sense to quote someone with more background in the subject matter. There is nothing wrong with a BA in philosophy from Beaver College (now called Arcadia University), but there are a lot of published philosophers out there with better defenses of hard determinism.

Rather than 'someone in authority,' it's more about what is said

It's not about Silverstein or his qualifications at all, but his criticism of compatibilism. He's not the only one to point out the reasons for failure of compatibalism.

I've quoted any number of sources saying the same things. It's not that difficult to grasp, you don't need formal qualifications in Philosophy to understand.

It's just a matter of an inadequate definition of free will. One that carefully avoids the inconvenient fact of non chosen brain states determining what we think and do.






...It was a brief outline of free will as a concept, not just compatibilism, and what it may look like. It's not only compatibalism that fails, but the whole notion of free will ( ''which is not a sensible concept'' - Martha Farah).

It was hardly an outline of anything, just some of his opinions on how to describe the problem he saw with compatibilism. Not much different from your opinions. As for Martha Farah, I've already explained my problem with her. She focused on the usefulness of the expression "free will" to neuroscientists, although she seemed to think that it had no usefulness in other contexts.


Again;

If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:
1. Free will requires that given an act A, the agent could have acted otherwise
2. Indeterminate actions happens randomly and without intent or control
3. Therefore indeterminism and free will are incompatible
4. Determinate actions are fixed and unchangeable
5. Therefore determinism is incompatible with free will

There goes any notion of free will regardless of determinism or indeterminism, compatibilist or Libertarian.

(1) fails, because it describes free will in the past tense, and you can't change the past. There may also be some ambiguity in the use of the modal, as well. Free will is about the imagined future from the perspective of an agent, not a past action. So "could have" only refers to what was in the mind of the agent at the time, not what transpired subsequently. From that perspective, agents choose to act according to how they imagine the future.

It's not free will in the past tense, not at all. As explained, and as determinism is defined, prior states of the system determine current states of the system which in turn determine future states of the system as it evolves.

What you experience in terms of conscious will is now, but the form it takes was determined by everything that has happened to bring you to this point in time and place and the thoughts you have and the actions you take

That is how determinism is defined.


(2) refers to "indeterminate actions", and I have no idea what those are. Random actions? There is nothing random about free will. The agent faces an indeterminate imaginary future and an array of actions to choose from. I suspect this is where you mix up compatibilist free will with libertarian free will, which has to do with indeterminism.

Some use indeterminism to support their version of free will, that any option can be taken at any point in time, etc.

That of course is not Compatibilism.

(3) is probably misstated, because you were fixated on the words "indeterminate actions" from (2). You seem to have forgotten that compatibilism is about determinism and free will, not "indeterminism" (whatever that is) and free will.

The syllogism is dealing with the notion of 'free will' in general, not just compatibalism

(4) is a tautology and not under dispute. Free will is defined in a way that is compatible with determinate actions. Agents will explain their actions in terms of the factors that caused them to do what they did.

It just reiterates the terms and conditions of determinism.

(5) does not follow logically because of the flaws in your premises. You apparently confuse the "free" in "free will" to refer to freedom from determinacy rather than freedom to choose an action that leads to the most desirable outcome.

It follows if you take the notion of free will to mean the ability to have regulative control and make choices.

The opening remark being; ''If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:''

I think that you just do not understand the compatibilist concept of free will.

I think I do. I have described its definition of free will countless times and understood what it means and how it relates to determinism as compatibilism defines it to be (which is standard)

Responsibility is something of a litmus test for free will--a deliberate, unimpeded action by an agent. If an agent thinks his or her action was not unduly impeded--that it was the result of free will--then the agent takes responsibility for that action. If it was felt to be impeded by circumstance, forces beyond the agent's control, or psychological compulsion, then that throws the agent's responsibility for the outcome of the action into question. That is what makes the concept of free will psychologically and socially useful. That is why the expression exists. It in no way conflicts with the fact that we live in a deterministic reality and that every aspect of our character is the result of physical causality. Agents are, after all, physical beings. Mental events supervene on physical events. Nobody but perhaps those who support libertarian free will disputes that.

If an action is determined, it must happen as determined. Not only is it not impeded, it is necessarily performed without restriction or hinderance.

''Wanting to do X is fully determined by these prior causes. Now that the desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X.'' - Cold Comfort in Compatibilism.

If determined, not only are there no constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, there is no option but to do what he wants.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.
I am not so sure. In fact I would rather disagree entirely.

I think there is a process and a phenomena going on which science can be used to assign "tokens" to, and put to a linguistic description. Science and philosophy in general are all about that.

This is why math is so important here, and why we need to actually get down to the nuts and the bolts, the foundations, of the discussion: the primitive natural concepts of goals, responses, causal chains, and so on.

Once we are there, once we have identified exactly and only the real operations within the system, this is the bag of tokens which we can find, combine or otherwise work with to see if the ancient forms apply.

This is a very similar exercise to the one that gave us computers, in drilling down on logic problems until we found "switches", and then
"AND" and "OR" as operations of them, and then from these built up into switches, and sets of switches, and classes and locations, and then eventually proper nouns, places, and other things such that they may be systematically represented.

For "free will" to be real or emergent rather than "arbitrary and make believe", it MUST sit near those basic tokens and primitive concepts. It needs to be in the domain of the "enumerations", and "integers" and "functions" and "switches", rather than existing in the domain of arbitrary class definitions, if it is to be considered real, and this means that it cannot be considered from an anthropocentric position.

We can debate the appropriateness of some selection of some phenomena or primitive concepts in this assignment of terms as "not a scientific pursuit", however it is absolutely an act of science to take the junky understandings of the "classical world", the "ancient forms", and find where in this well-founded view they find their first expression.

To that end, it doesn't even really matter what we call it or if we call it anything, however for the sake of being understood outside this world of precise jargon and obfuscated tokens, we have to actually undertake a process of naming, and this process is scientific (well, mathematical at any rate).

I have gone through the process of naming assemblies and obfuscated structures a few times, both for fun and for work. If I couldn't do it well or didn't understand the process or if the process wasn't sane and functional, Jarhyn's Shape Builder (a Minecraft mod; see also Zaneris's Shape Builder) never would have existed, and a certain 787 simulator never would have finished its development. I really do know what I'm talking about in terms of translation between natural phenomenal languages and arbitrary "high level" languages.

To understand this, I would encourage anyone to write a simple program in Java, obfuscate the source and compile it, then without looking at the obfuscation key, re-name the structures you see. Try doing it with someone else's Java program. Either your language works to describe the process to an observer or it doesn't. That's what I'm interested in: discovering where the weakly defined terms of ancient philosophy find ground truth in systems theory.

People lacking skill and applied experience in linguistics, and specifically the acts of naming and translation, don't really have any place in this conversation.
 
I don't want to get involved in the argument at this point, but I do want to mention two things that some of you might enjoy. NOVA had two episodes about the brain that you can stream. One is about free will. The other one is very interesting as it explains how vision works and a few other things, that I didn't know.

Then, if you are a subscriber to Scientific American, it has an interesting article which I think was in the June edition. If you still have a Facebook account, you might be able to read it there without a subscription, plus SA allows non subscribers to read one free article. I read the article this morning and it discussed both hard determinism and .compatibilism. I thought it was interesting, and perhaps some of you might find it has some info to add to this endless discussion. :)

Have fun!
Do you have a link to that article?
Ihttps://www.scientificamerican.com/...86pMt9Q7XXrazwxqM8IQBgF_mZLInVXOWi_8vTgTUeigI

I think the above link is it. I did a very fast search as I'm on my way out.
Gah, need a subscription. Can you gift that link?

Just from glimpsing the title before the paywall went up, it looks to me like the article is about superdeterminism.
AFAIK, Scientifc American does not allow for gifting articles. I was under the impression that a non subscriber could read one free article per month. Iv’e never found a way to gift any articles, but when I have time, I’ll look again. Sorry about that.
 
I don't want to get involved in the argument at this point, but I do want to mention two things that some of you might enjoy. NOVA had two episodes about the brain that you can stream. One is about free will. The other one is very interesting as it explains how vision works and a few other things, that I didn't know.

Then, if you are a subscriber to Scientific American, it has an interesting article which I think was in the June edition. If you still have a Facebook account, you might be able to read it there without a subscription, plus SA allows non subscribers to read one free article. I read the article this morning and it discussed both hard determinism and .compatibilism. I thought it was interesting, and perhaps some of you might find it has some info to add to this endless discussion. :)

Have fun!
Do you have a link to that article?
Ihttps://www.scientificamerican.com/...86pMt9Q7XXrazwxqM8IQBgF_mZLInVXOWi_8vTgTUeigI

I think the above link is it. I did a very fast search as I'm on my way out.
Gah, need a subscription. Can you gift that link?

Just from glimpsing the title before the paywall went up, it looks to me like the article is about superdeterminism.
AFAIK, Scientifc American does not allow for gifting articles. I was under the impression that a non subscriber could read one free article per month. Iv’e never found a way to gift any articles, but when I have time, I’ll look again. Sorry about that.
On the morning of June 28, 1914, a Bosnian Serb student named Gavrilo Princip stood outside Moritz Schiller’s delicatessen near the Latin Bridge in Sarajevo. Sometime after 10:45 A.M., a motorcade carrying archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, passed within meters of Princip, who drew his 0.38-caliber pistol and fired. One bullet struck the archduke in the neck. He was rushed to the military governor’s residence for medical treatment, but by 11:30 A.M. he was pronounced dead.

The assassination helped spark World War I. Historians view history as a series of interconnected but highly contingent events—built of myriad and mostly unseen chains of cause and effect. If Princip’s gun had jammed, the thinking goes, the archduke would have lived, and Europe’s subsequent history may well have been very different. Fiction writers have long been enthralled with these what-ifs (known to philosophers as “counterfactual histories”): What if Hitler hadn’t flunked out of art school? What if the Germans had developed the atomic bomb before the Americans? What if John Lennon had never met Paul McCartney? What if an asteroid hadn’t wiped out the dinosaurs some 65 million years ago and reptiles still ruled the Earth?

Such contingencies presume, of course, that things could have been different—either because a person exercising their free will could have chosen another course of action (Princip could have chosen not to pull the trigger) or because random events (such as the asteroid strike) could have unfolded differently. But is this attitude compatible with physics? Do the natural laws of the universe allow for free will?

ON SUPPORTING SCIENCE JOURNALISM
If you're enjoying this article, consider supporting our award-winning journalism by subscribing. By purchasing a subscription you are helping to ensure the future of impactful stories about the discoveries and ideas shaping our world today.

Scientists and philosophers have been arguing over the question for centuries and are often torn between two competing poles. Some think, Yes, you obviously have free will. (Aren’t you already four paragraphs into a story that you freely chose to read?) Others think, No, you can’t possibly have free will because the laws of physics say that whatever happens was determined by what happened immediately before—and the happenings within human minds are no exception. Recently a new argument for why quantum mechanics is even more deterministic than physicists might have thought has sparked the debate anew.

The notion that physics and free will might be incompatible goes back at least to the ancient Greeks, but it was expressed most forcefully by French scholar and polymath Pierre-Simon Laplace. Perhaps, wondered Laplace, everything that happens is strictly determined by what came before. His thought experiment involved an entity, now known as Laplace’s demon, that can discern the position and momentum of every particle in the universe. For such a demon, the future is fixed: there can be only one way for the universe to unfold. The cosmos would be deterministic, meaning that the future is uniquely determined by the present, which in turn was uniquely determined by the past. If Laplace was right, the notion of contingency—the idea that regardless of what’s happening at any moment in time, what happens next is “up in the air”—would seem to evaporate.

Then at the start of the 20th century came the twin upheavals of quantum mechanics and relativity. Quantum mechanics, in particular, seemed to have profound implications for free will and contingency. The theory sees nature as inherently fuzzy: quantities that were clearly defined in classical physics, such as position or momentum, are indeterminate in quantum mechanics—until they’re measured. Upon measuring a system (at least in the so-called Copenhagen interpretation of the theory), its wave function (a mathematical description of the system) is said to “collapse,” leaving one unique outcome, such as a specific observed position or momentum. The theory tells you only the probability of various outcomes of each observation but not which result you’ll actually see. At first glance, this haziness might seem to rescue physics from the clutches of determinism. On the other hand, it’s not clear how quantum indeterminacy would enable free will because we don’t usually think of our decision-making processes as random any more than we think of them as wholly preordained.

But there is another twist in this story—one that crops up when physicists attempt to apply quantum mechanics to the entire universe (a field known as quantum cosmology). Some quantum approaches to cosmology, such as the one envisioned by theoretical physicists Jim Hartle and Stephen Hawking (and described by Hawking in A Brief History of Time), appear to dictate not only the rules governing the evolution of the universe but also its initial state. In this way of seeing things—physicist Roger Penrose called it “strong determinism” in his book The Emperor’s New Mind—the universe can have precisely one history. Nothing could have been different from how it actually was and is. Everything from the trajectory of Princip’s bullet to the fact that you’re now reading this sentence was prescribed, so to speak, at the dawn of time.

That’s one way to interpret quantum mechanics—but not the only way. Another popular take is known as the “many worlds” view (or the Everettian view, after physicist Hugh Everett III, who first wrote about it in detail). In this view, everything that can happen does in fact happen—but in a different universe. So rather than saying that the universe has precisely one history, proponents of many worlds would say that the “multiverse” has just one history. Within this multiverse, there are branches, or universes, in which Princip pulled the trigger and also ones in which he didn’t. There are universes where Schrödinger’s famous cat is alive and universes where it’s dead. But the cosmos as a whole is fully determined.

Eddy Keming Chen, a philosopher of physics at the University of California, San Diego, believes we should take the idea of strong determinism—and its implications—seriously. If we embrace a theory like the one put forward by Hartle and Hawking, in which both the dynamics and the initial conditions of the universe (or multiverse) are specified, then only one unique history is possible. From this perspective, quantum mechanics is even more deterministic than its classical predecessor, Chen argued recently in Nature. (In a related preprint, Chen developed the idea further, describing what he calls the “Everettian Wentaculus,” which he wrote is “the first realistic and simple strongly deterministic theory of the quantum world.”)

But it’s tricky: even if we live in an Everettian multiverse, we only see one branch—our universe—and within that branch, we still tend to imagine that multiple outcomes are possible. In his preprint, Chen admits that “it is an open question how to think about freedom and agency in a multiverse context.” At the very least, though, the way we usually understand decisions, choices and contingency would need a rethink, Chen says. He believes that under strong determinism, it no longer makes sense to speak of counterfactuals. “You can understand the counterfactuals as referring to different physical possibilities compatible to the laws of physics,” Chen says. “But if I tell you there’s only one single possibility, then there are no counterfactuals. All counterfactuals become meaningless or trivial or vacuous.” And if there are no counterfactuals, he says, there’s no freedom. As he wrote in his Nature essay, strong determinism “makes it harder to appeal to quantum theory to defend free will.”

While physicists continue to debate the idea of strong determinism, Emily Adlam, a philosopher of physics at Chapman University, agrees with Chen that it appears to present more of a threat to free will than traditional determinism, particularly because of its ties to the Everettian multiverse. “In a standard deterministic picture, sure, everything that happens was determined from the past—but your mind was a key part of the causal process by which future events get realized,” Adlam says. “So in some meaningful sense, future events—even though they were predetermined—were mediated through processes that you identify with yourself.” But in the Everettian picture, she says, it’s harder to see where decision-making would fit in. “If you always make every possible decision, that does seem to severely undermine the sense in which you are exercising any meaningful kind of choice,” she says. “So in that sense, you do seem worse off than in the standard picture, where one outcome occurs and you play a role in bringing it about.”

As troubling as quantum mechanics (or at least certain versions of it) may be for the idea of free will, relativity—the other pillar of modern physics—isn’t off the hook. Many theorists think of relativity as describing a universe in which past, present and future are all equally real: a static cosmos that just sits there like a big block of spacetime (sometimes called the “block universe”). It’s not that time disappears in this picture—but it no longer “passes” or “flows.” (As Albert Einstein famously put it, the passage of time is a “stubbornly persistent illusion.”) Conceptually speaking, the strongly deterministic quantum universe and the block universe of relativity may not be so far apart. The quantum version can be thought of as “a kind of enriched block universe,” says Alastair Wilson, a philosopher of science at the University of Leeds in England. “Imagine taking a block universe and adding an extra dimension to it—the dimension of possibility.”

Still, theories about the fundamental nature of space and time need to be taken with a grain of salt. Physicists have a reasonably good grip on most of the universe’s 13.8-billion-year history. As we rewind the tape, though, we find that our understanding of space and time becomes more tenuous as we get closer to the big bang. In the universe’s first moments, neither relativity nor quantum mechanics on their own can offer an accurate description of what’s happening, and there’s no agreed-upon unified theory of quantum gravity to take their place. In this realm, “notions of space and time themselves start breaking down at the fundamental level in ways we don’t understand,” says David Wallace, a physicist and philosopher at the University of Pittsburgh. “If the notion of time breaks down, then the sharp distinction between laws, which say how things change over time, and initial conditions, which say how things are at the initial time, starts breaking down as well.” Despite how much interest the Hartle-Hawking proposal has garnered, Wallace cautions that it is still “speculative.” And although Wallace is an ardent Everettian (as are the well-known scientists David Deutsch, Max Tegmark and Sean Carroll), the Everettian multiverse remains controversial as well.

Skepticism about free will is hardly new. Long before quantum mechanics and relativity came along, people wondered what sort of freedom, if any, could be found in a universe in which matter merely moves about in response to forces like balls in a never-ending game of cosmic billiards. The latest in a long line of free will skeptics is biologist and neurologist Robert Sapolsky, whose most recent book is entitled Determined: A Science of Life without Free Will. You are who you are, Sapolsky argues, because of everything that came before, both in your own life’s history and long before you were born. After decades of trying to see what wiggle room science might leave for personal freedoms, he has concluded that “we have no free will at all,” he wrote in his book.

The preferred “solution” to reconciling possibly deterministic physics and seemingly free personal choices—the quotation marks are important because not everyone is onboard—is a position known as compatibilism. Whatever the fundamental particles and forces might be doing at the subatomic level, the compatibilist says, human freedom can still exist because we live our lives in the macroscopic world, where very different rules apply. Yes, we’re made of atoms (or fluctuating quantum fields, if you prefer), but it would be absurd to try to describe any feature of human behavior by analyzing our atoms (or our quantum fields). And although a slight majority of philosophers identify as compatibilists (polls put the figure at around 60 percent), others see it as a cop out. Immanuel Kant, for example, dismissed compatibilism as “wretched subterfuge.” More recently, neuroscientist Sam Harris wrote in his book Free Will that “from both a moral and a scientific perspective, [compatibilism] seems deliberately obtuse.”

For compatibilists, it comes down to a matter of perspective. Wilson gives the example of astronomer Arthur Eddington, who, writing a century ago, pointed out that a table loses its tablelike properties when examined at the microscopic level. “He discovered there’s a lot of empty space between the particles in the table,” Wilson says. “Does that mean it’s not solid? Or does that mean that solidity is not what we thought it was?” He suggests looking at the Everettian multiverse in the same light. From one perspective, we might say that the very notion of probability has vanished—or we could say “that there are probabilities—they’re just not what we thought they were.”

For committed compatibilists, the issue of free will doesn’t depend on what physics says about atoms, forces, quantum fields or anything else that applies at the microscopic level, and strong determinism is no more upsetting than regular determinism. As Adlam puts it: “On one level of description, people are the source of their decisions, and on a different, physical level of description, the distant past and the laws of physics are the source of their decisions. And I think if you keep those two levels of description separate, as you should, then you don’t really have a problem with free will.”
I have reproduced the full text of the article. Perhaps I am being a little bit naughty... But what the fuck ever.

I have not read this myself deeply enough to agree or disagree with any premises so far; it is merely quoted here in an attempt to have a conversation about the contents of the article.

ETA: I don't actually agree with the analysis of the article, in that my own compatibilism in fact resolves to fundamental primitive concepts within system theory based on contingent mechanisms. As all of deterministic physics is based on the idea of contingent mechanisms given some initial state, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that regardless of whether some contingency or another is activated, free will can be discussed and is "real", as long as it relates to such basic contingent action.

The only time where free will to me ends up being nonsensical is when the system does not rely on some manner of sufficient contingent response (such as that the outcome is not contingent on some existing state in the system, AKA 'indeterminancy'), and as such free will is created by the reality of determinism, not destroyed by it.

The article tries to pretend that the compatibilist always or must go up from the atoms and molecules and such to find what we are looking for, however I rebel against this view and YOU SHOULD, TOO!
 
Thanks Jarhyn. I hesitated to post the entire article but perhaps it will be okay, since that seems to be the only way to access it for everyone, and it does mention both hard determinists, and compatibilists. I just thought it was an interesting take and reminded me of this discussion.
 
Thanks Jarhyn. I hesitated to post the entire article but perhaps it will be okay, since that seems to be the only way to access it for everyone, and it does mention both hard determinists, and compatibilists. I just thought it was an interesting take and reminded me of this discussion.
It is very similar. My understanding is that most here would agree with much or all of the article except perhaps DBT who is stuck with his head in the sand and myself over my problem with the lack of rigor in examining the "nuts and bolts" of the language of discussing contingent mechanisms in general.

The issue I can see is that it is, strangely, like discussing something like Andrew Wiles's proof of Fermat's Last Theorem: it seems deceptively easy at first, and people spent ages claiming it was true or false for bad reasons, and the only way to gain traction on it for real was to go through a stunning jaunt around Grothendiek universes and elliptical curves AFAICT.

Without heavy experience in terms of systems theory, the homomorphism between "algorithm" and "will", relationship between systemic degrees of freedom and the "freedom" of "free will" will not be apparent. Heck, I can't even seem to communicate that apparent connection to people today who ostensibly have that experience!

I feel like I'm at the point where the next step is actually to discuss this in an academic setting with academics, but it's going to be a "hard sell" either way, I think.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.
I am not so sure. In fact I would rather disagree entirely.
Yes, I'm pretty sure we fundamentally disagree about the free will question. :)
 
Chen argued recently in Nature. (In a related preprint, Chen developed the idea further, describing what he calls the “Everettian Wentaculus,” which he wrote is “the first realistic and simple strongly deterministic theory of the quantum world.”)

The Everettian Wentaculus, Chen’s preprint, which I’m still reading. The SA article doesn’t specifically mention superdeterminism and there seems to be some distinction between that and strong determinism, which I think Chen discusses in his paper — as noted, I have not yet read through it. As to the block universe mentioned in the SA article, I discussed that in another thread some time back that somehow I never got back to. Nothing about the block universe undermines compatibilism.

As to superdeterminism, it’s practically too weird for words.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.

As someone who has done a lot of research in lexical semantics, I would argue that questions of meaning are subject to objective empirical investigation. The meanings of words and expressions are social conventions, and that means that normative usage within a community of speakers has to be the determining standard. Unfortunately, word meanings can drift around over time, so people spend a lot of time debating over how they would like their words to be understood rather than how they are normally understood. The free will debate is very much a part of that kind of struggle, especially among philosophers.

One of the dominant trends in philosophy in the 20th century was  linguistic philosophy. The basic idea was that most or all philosophical problems could be dealt with by looking at the language used to express them. Two rival branches of linguistic philosophy arose in the early 20th century. The first,  Ideal Language Philosophy (ILP), was spearheaded by Bertrand Russell (and early Wittgenstein), and the second,  Ordinary Language Philosophy (OLP), by Ludwig Wittgenstein. IL philosophers considered ordinary language to be flawed and therefore promoted the idea of creating a formal "ideal" language that lacked the flaws of ordinary language. They did most of the development of formal language theory (symbolic logics, mathematical logic). They made some great advances in our understanding of how symbol systems and logical deduction work, but they lacked a precise method for translating English into the symbolic languages. Perhaps their biggest failing was in their inability to handle presuppositions, which simply could not be integrated properly with propositional logic.

OL philosophers took the position that there was nothing wrong with ordinary language. The problem was with those who used language in ways that did not conform to ordinary social conventions. These philosophers made great leaps in discourse theory--explaining the nature of presuppositions and their link to discourse. However, OL philosophers were not usually linguists (with some notable exceptions), so most of their work only examined English usage. So there has been a lot of useful cross-disciplinary interaction between linguistic and philosophical academic researchers.

What I have been arguing in this case is that the free will debate needs to pay very close attention to the actual usage of an expression like free will in order to understand how it relates to causal determinism. That is, I have been approaching the problem more as an OL philosopher would. My position is that the expression is fully compatible with determinism, because ordinary usage relies on the nature of causal semantics to express the behavior of agents and their responsibility in the flow a causal chains of events. In fact, my PhD dissertation (now horribly outdated) was about the expression of causation in English verbs, so I've been looking at this problem for a very long time.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.

As someone who has done a lot of research in lexical semantics,

Yes, I'm aware.

I would argue that questions of meaning are subject to objective empirical investigation.

And I certainly wouldn't disagree.
 
The question of what would count as free will cannot be resolved by science. It is predominantly a question of what we mean by free will and questions of meaning are not decided by science.
I am not so sure. In fact I would rather disagree entirely.
Yes, I'm pretty sure we fundamentally disagree about the free will question. :)
Well, we are both compatibilists, but the point is that I take a very different approach to language than most.

It may be because of my biases in understanding towards what would probably be aptly named "foundationalism" or "constructivism".

From Copernicus's point of view I would be both IL and OL, in that I DO think there are relative isomorphisms between IL and OL approaches, but that OL does have flaws. In this way, my expectation is that OL can be "cleaned up" by restricting OL as corresponding IL prescribes. OL is mostly right, but only MOSTLY, and IL/OL translation bridges the gap.

Few people have set apon the path of marrying IL to OL.

Most people are mostly right most of the time, and this means that IF one wishes to translate from weak/common usage to something based on a solid foundation of something like "math" or "systems theory", you need to understand systems theory very well,and also be very familiar with common language discussions on such topics, and be able to find homomorphism and isomorphism in the first place!

Certainly that STARTS on the side of common vernacular in terms of isolating what relationships and operations are desired of a term, but it's hard to justify this as being a set of operations and relationships available "within deterministic systems" unless you actually are engaging with "deterministic systems in general".

To wit, I stand by my statement that I disagree with the article that free will is a concern specific to the anthropic layer, and maintain that correct handling within the bounds of science and math require identifying the isomorphism there.

As to superdeterminism, it’s practically too weird for words.
I dunno? I have a model which I'm 99% sure is a member of the class "superdeterministic system", however this doesn't rule out compatibilism either. It solves the question of quantum teleportation (or a homomorphism thereof) in a satisfying way, but it essentially boils down to a specific case of "Determinism with with a special PRNG to resolve quantum events", wherein the PRNG functions as a mapping rather than a hashing function, and this is implemented in a finite system by replacing the RNG with a "numbered ticket + encryption" schema.

Essentially, we as a pair of photons take a ticket off a turn-o-matic, and then we encrypt that ticket given some schema, and the result tells us which one is "up" and which one is "down", but we don't actually look up the result against our universal function until we reach the destination (ie. until we need to know). It's random from our point of view, but because it's random to the same mapping, we will find agreement. As long as this universal mapping function is available to all particles (which it can be, as part of whatever universal equation), both particles get the "same answer" because both particles got that answer from rolling the same dice in the same way.

Again, I'm not sure this is "exactly" superdeterministic, but then, I don't think anyone has ever actually held up a real example of a superdeterministic system anyway beyond the system that I just described very insufficiently.
 
...
Again;

If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:
1. Free will requires that given an act A, the agent could have acted otherwise
2. Indeterminate actions happens randomly and without intent or control
3. Therefore indeterminism and free will are incompatible
4. Determinate actions are fixed and unchangeable
5. Therefore determinism is incompatible with free will

There goes any notion of free will regardless of determinism or indeterminism, compatibilist or Libertarian.

(1) fails, because it describes free will in the past tense, and you can't change the past. There may also be some ambiguity in the use of the modal, as well. Free will is about the imagined future from the perspective of an agent, not a past action. So "could have" only refers to what was in the mind of the agent at the time, not what transpired subsequently. From that perspective, agents choose to act according to how they imagine the future.

It's not free will in the past tense, not at all. As explained, and as determinism is defined, prior states of the system determine current states of the system which in turn determine future states of the system as it evolves.

Look, the expression "could have acted otherwise" is literally in the past tense. Could is the past tense of the modal auxiliary verb can in its epistemic (not deontic or dynamic) sense. That is, could refers to speculation about the future at a time in the past. Let's just get the semantics straight once and for all. In defining free will in (1), you are referring to the state of mind that a past agent had about future outcomes, not the real future that actually played out in reality.

(2) refers to "indeterminate actions", and I have no idea what those are. Random actions? There is nothing random about free will. The agent faces an indeterminate imaginary future and an array of actions to choose from. I suspect this is where you mix up compatibilist free will with libertarian free will, which has to do with indeterminism.

Some use indeterminism to support their version of free will, that any option can be taken at any point in time, etc.
That of course is not Compatibilism.

I can make little sense of your response, but, like I said, you mix up compatibilism and libertarian free will. That would explain why you can't seem to understand the compatibilist position on free will. We both disagree with indeterminism, but you still keep throwing it into the discussion as if it were relevant to compatibilism.


(3) is probably misstated, because you were fixated on the words "indeterminate actions" from (2). You seem to have forgotten that compatibilism is about determinism and free will, not "indeterminism" (whatever that is) and free will.

The syllogism is dealing with the notion of 'free will' in general, not just compatibalism

It's not a real syllogism, although it is constructed to resemble one. We are only discussing compatibilism here, so steps (2) and (3) are basically irrelevant. (5) does not logically follow from (1) and (4). As I've already pointed out, you have clearly misconstrued (1) and the compatibilist concept of free will along with it. Step (4) alone is accepted by everyone, and it doesn't get you (5).


(5) does not follow logically because of the flaws in your premises. You apparently confuse the "free" in "free will" to refer to freedom from determinacy rather than freedom to choose an action that leads to the most desirable outcome.

It follows if you take the notion of free will to mean the ability to have regulative control and make choices.

The opening remark being; ''If you accept regulative control as a necessary part of free will, it seems impossible either way:''

The Princeton PDF you linked regulative control to churns and times out on my computer, so I couldn't review the document or figure out why you believe that.


Responsibility is something of a litmus test for free will--a deliberate, unimpeded action by an agent. If an agent thinks his or her action was not unduly impeded--that it was the result of free will--then the agent takes responsibility for that action. If it was felt to be impeded by circumstance, forces beyond the agent's control, or psychological compulsion, then that throws the agent's responsibility for the outcome of the action into question. That is what makes the concept of free will psychologically and socially useful. That is why the expression exists. It in no way conflicts with the fact that we live in a deterministic reality and that every aspect of our character is the result of physical causality. Agents are, after all, physical beings. Mental events supervene on physical events. Nobody but perhaps those who support libertarian free will disputes that.

If an action is determined, it must happen as determined. Not only is it not impeded, it is necessarily performed without restriction or hinderance.

''Wanting to do X is fully determined by these prior causes. Now that the desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X.'' - Cold Comfort in Compatibilism.

If determined, not only are there no constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, there is no option but to do what he wants.

To paraphrase Wolfgang Pauli, that's not even wrong. Your text does not address my point about responsibility, so it is hard to see where the conversation goes after that. Do you believe that people are responsible for their actions in the sense that they can be praised or blamed for those actions?
 
From Copernicus's point of view I would be both IL and OL, in that I DO think there are relative isomorphisms between IL and OL approaches, but that OL does have flaws. In this way, my expectation is that OL can be "cleaned up" by restricting OL as corresponding IL prescribes. OL is mostly right, but only MOSTLY, and IL/OL translation bridges the gap.

Few people have set apon the path of marrying IL to OL.

Noam Chomsky's theory of generative linguistics probably comes closest to attempting a marriage between the two, although I think that they are fundamentally different approaches to the nature of language. Natural languages are symbolic signal systems that are formally incomplete with respect to their semantic interpretation. They only serve to replicate thoughts from the speaker's mind to the listener's by evoking memories of shared experiences. The problem with IL is that it doesn't address the presuppositional nature of speech acts, and that is precisely where Chomsky's formalism tends to break down. It doesn't take into account the communicative function of linguistic expressions, choosing instead to focus on structural well-formedness of expressions--basically, patterns of speech--as the psychological basis for language systems.

Jarhyn, as a computer scientist who is interested in artificial intelligence, I would suggest that you look into the work of Roger Schank on the nature of natural language discourse and the FrameNet system that it partially inspired. You might get some new and interesting insight from that literature, especially if you want to know what is wrong with trying to treat natural languages as formal symbolic systems of the type that IL philosophers (and Chomskyan generativists) have worked with. But, of course, there is a vast literature on Speech Act theory and especially Grice's  Cooperative Principle, that contributes to an understanding of where IL's approach falters and breaks down.
 
From Copernicus's point of view I would be both IL and OL, in that I DO think there are relative isomorphisms between IL and OL approaches, but that OL does have flaws. In this way, my expectation is that OL can be "cleaned up" by restricting OL as corresponding IL prescribes. OL is mostly right, but only MOSTLY, and IL/OL translation bridges the gap.

Few people have set apon the path of marrying IL to OL.

Noam Chomsky's theory of generative linguistics probably comes closest to attempting a marriage between the two, although I think that they are fundamentally different approaches to the nature of language. Natural languages are symbolic signal systems that are formally incomplete with respect to their semantic interpretation. They only serve to replicate thoughts from the speaker's mind to the listener's by evoking memories of shared experiences. The problem with IL is that it doesn't address the presuppositional nature of speech acts, and that is precisely where Chomsky's formalism tends to break down. It doesn't take into account the communicative function of linguistic expressions, choosing instead to focus on structural well-formedness of expressions--basically, patterns of speech--as the psychological basis for language systems.

Jarhyn, as a computer scientist who is interested in artificial intelligence, I would suggest that you look into the work of Roger Schank on the nature of natural language discourse and the FrameNet system that it partially inspired. You might get some new and interesting insight from that literature, especially if you want to know what is wrong with trying to treat natural languages as formal symbolic systems of the type that IL philosophers (and Chomskyan generativists) have worked with. But, of course, there is a vast literature on Speech Act theory and especially Grice's  Cooperative Principle, that contributes to an understanding of where IL's approach falters and breaks down.
I wouldn't say IL breaks down so much. I'll also note that we have different usages of "natural language", insofar as I do not view spoken OL as "natural language". I view assembly and natural encoding as "natural language", because OL is anything but natural, whereas actual natural languages are languages that are only barely symbolic, assembly languages.

To me a "natural language" can be translated into an IL, and IL can be transliterated to an OL, but you can't really get from OL to natural language unless the OL is first "properly married" to a 1:1 correspondence with some process of IL.

As per my comment on math not really being a language at all, but facts about the exercise of what happens re-grouping things, to me "natural language" is the encoding of "blue" as "1 at this location following (electrochemical process)", such that 1 is a token that means "blue". This is a natural language spoken by a switch, the only two words in its vocabulary being "blue" and "not blue", said with the tokens "1, 0"

Contrast this with OL, from which you couldn't derive what exactly is being said by "blue" at all.

This is why I bring up "naming", the act of assigning arbitrary tokens to real phenomena.

OL has the problem wherein it has no obligation to actually comport to anything real, wherein NL systems for me can ONLY make "real statements".

IL specifically fails at the boundary of class generation for me, at the point where it starts to allow handling arbitrary concepts that are emulated on top of more natural systems.

You can't learn much about a "basketball" from IL, for example; you need to make an arbitrary definition first, which IL can do, but it won't get you very far.

This is one of the criticisms I have with some of the claims people make in the threads on gender, for example. You can make up A definition of "basketball" but that doesn't mean there is a real thing such as a "basketball"; it's just an arbitrary imaginary statistical object which nothing actually satisfies in an IL way. IL can describe whether something meets this definition, but it can't support or handle or validate the correctness of it, and the exercise in trying to do so is futile.

When I talk about ethics, it's firmly my argument that the entire subject is IL complete, and that you don't actually need OL to handle it at all, hence why I tend towards handling it entirely in IL.

This is my contention with the article in that it states indirectly that Free Will is an OL concept rather than an IL one.

Algorithms, degrees of freedom, location of origin of some vector of force, these are all IL, and these are what I construct my view on the subject from.

The issue people take is that OL approaches bring in anthropocentrism. It violates the OL intuition that "people have free will and computer programs do not", despite the fact that this view is not actually justified except by human bias and aforementioned anthropocentrism.

One of DBT's objections of my treatment is, after all, that a "dwarf" is an object with 'free will'.
 
I wouldn't say IL breaks down so much. I'll also note that we have different usages of "natural language", insofar as I do not view spoken OL as "natural language". I view assembly and natural encoding as "natural language", because OL is anything but natural, whereas actual natural languages are languages that are only barely symbolic, assembly languages.

To me a "natural language" can be translated into an IL, and IL can be transliterated to an OL, but you can't really get from OL to natural language unless the OL is first "properly married" to a 1:1 correspondence with some process of IL.

Jarhyn, the term "natural language" is well-understood even in your own field of expertise--e.g. you have the subfield of AI called "Natural Language Processing". So it doesn't matter how you would like to use the term. If you don't want to use the term the way everyone else uses it, that is your prerogative, but don't use your private meaning to equivocate in a discussion with others.

As for your "properly married" idea, that doesn't work in practice, because you can never "properly marry" discourse propositions into mathematical logic, which is structurally context-free. Natural language represents a context-dependent signal. The meaning of an expression in mathematics does not change contextually. It is a function that always yields the same set of answers. OTOH, natural language expressions cannot be interpreted independently of the discourse that they are embedded in. To interpret the meaning of a sentence, you have to imagine a context in which it would make sense. That's where presuppositions come into play and why formal languages can't handle presuppositions.

It is difficult for me to explain all of this to you, because you simply don't have any background in theories of natural language or in the relevant philosophical literature. What you need is a graduate seminar on the subject. An informal social media discussion is not going to help very much. That's why I recommended Schank as a place to start, but that was only to get across the idea that the semantics of a natural language expression are not fully contained in the linguistic signal.
 
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