Addiction and drug legalization/decriminalization (split from First World Problems)

[Toni]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

 

[Elixir]

It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict.

Check the Portugal model's performance.
Some conditions differ domestically, so 1:1 projection of results is probably a mistake, but understand - legalization can't be expected to instantly cure the destructive influence of people consuming bad things. But it would cure the secondary societal effects pretty quick. Sure some people steal to get alcohol, but they rarely break into homes, steal the electronics and jewelry and trade them to a fence for alcohol; that kind of activity is rightfully more associated with heroin, cocaine etc.. and if those things were legal, that kind of crime would decrease at least in proportion to the cost. Incarceration is also destructive and expensive. Probably better and cheaper if those who are so inclined are allowed to OD or seek professional help - which needs to be readily avbailble. Sounds cold, but I truly believe that is the most compassionate "solution"/approach.
Legalization wouldn't happen without a body count, either. Again, check to Portugal model. It's not perfect, just a whole lot better than what we have.

 

[southernhybrid]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

Of course, it won't solve the problems that you mention. ETOH has destroyed many lives and it's been legal for a long time. But, is it a plus to lock someone up because they have an addiction to drugs? Is it a positive to destroy a person's life by giving them a long jail sentence due to drug usage?

I once was almost chosen to be on a jury of two young black men who were charged with possession of cocaine with intent to sell. I wasn't chosen for the jury, probably because I was the only one who raised her hand when asked, "Who thinks that recreational drugs should be legal"? Later I found out from an acquaintance, that one of the men got a 30 year sentence and the other one got a 20 year sentence. That was about 10-15 years ago. If these drugs were legal or at least decriminalized, the two young black men might have had the chance to live better lives, especially if the crazy amount of money we spend on enforcement and imprisonment, was used to offer rehab, and job training.

When Portugal legalized or decriminalized drugs, usage didn't increase. If these drugs were legal, that would probably stop a lot of the crimes that currently happen in relation to drugs. It would stop or slow drugs coming over the border, since they could be regulated here. I might be overly optimistic about this, but I think it's got to be better than locking people up for years for the crime of using something potentially harmful for themselves.

Of course, it's different if someone is driving erratically while under the influence or giving drugs to minors etc. But those are different crimes. If we could at the very least, make cannabis legal at the federal level, that would be a good start. Statistically, the police arrest far more black folks for these crimes, despite the fact that white folks use at the same rate, maybe more. So, racism is another problem related to drugs being illegal. We can't stop people from being poor parents, from having drug related emotional problems, for misusing drugs etc. I just don't see any reason to make using a crime. We should offer help, not lock people up for years for using or selling drugs that have been around, probably since the beginning of civilization.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I once was almost chosen to be on a jury of two young black men who were charged with possession of cocaine with intent to sell. I wasn't chosen for the jury, probably because I was the only one who raised her hand when asked, "Who thinks that recreational drugs should be legal"? Later I found out from an acquaintance, that one of the men got a 30 year sentence and the other one got a 20 year sentence. That was about 10-15 years ago. If these drugs were legal or at least decriminalized, the two young black men might have had the chance to live better lives, especially if the crazy amount of money we spend on enforcement and imprisonment, was used to offer rehab, and job training.

Why are they even allowed to ask a question like that in jury selection?

 

[Toni]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

 

[southernhybrid]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

The biggest cost to society is locking people up and enforcing the drug laws. I understand your concerns. I just don't think that legalization or decriminalization will make things worse. In fact, I think it will make things better, especially since it would cost a lot less to offer rehab and job training compared to the cost of imprisoning people and spending so much money on law enforcement. Two of us have mentioned that when Portugal made their drug laws more lenient, there wasn't any increase in drug usage. I doubt that the illegality of drugs deters usage, or at least not much. We can probably agree that alcohol is one of the worst drugs out there and it's legal. Most people don't abuse it, but there will always be some that do. That would likely be the case if other drugs were legal.

A lot of young people experiment with drugs. I never did but my sister tried just about everything she could get her hands on. She drank too much when she was in her 20s, but then settled down by the time she was about 30. She doesn't even drink now. Weed makes her paranoid, but she does take an anti anxiety agent prescribed by her doctor. That's a control drug that is often abused too. She uses it very conservatively. It seemed like almost every young person was experimenting with drugs in the late 60s and early 70s. I was the straight weird one.

Perhaps if drugs were decriminalized, younger people who want to experiment could do so safely. Legalization would give the government more control over the substances. Drugs wouldn't be laced with unknown, dangerous substances. Anyway.....I've said more than enough. I doubt legalization at the federal level will come in my lifetime.

One more thing.....

There will always be abusive or neglectful parents, regardless if it's drug related or due to something else.

Very few people are going to suddenly want to shoot up heroin or use cocaine just because they are legal. But, speaking of cocaine, my husband once worked in a place that made contact lenses, where the doctors and most of the managers used coke, so they could work long shifts. Mr. Sohy never used, but he told me some crazy stories about that place. No surprise the place went bankrupt after a few years. That was in the 80s, when cocaine was very popular. At least it was in Raleigh, NC. Illegality doesn't stop people from using, and it's not the drugs, if used in moderation that ruins one's life, it's being arrested and given a long prison sentence that ruins one's life.

I get it though. We have different perspectives based on our experiences and influences.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

Illegality doesn't stop people from using, and it's not the drugs, if used in moderation that ruins one's life, it's being arrested and given a long prison sentence that ruins one's life.

That ^^^

And the illegal things people do to support an addiction which costs a bomb because it is illicit.

My ex was a heroin user and an alcoholic. He claims neither drug affected his behaviour. I beg to differ. The heroin not so much, but the alcohol made him a superlative arsehole.

One of his wives, a nurse, tolerated the heroin usage but hated the alcoholic aspect and worried more about the health aspects of that.

 

[Toni]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

The biggest cost to society is locking people up and enforcing the drug laws. I understand your concerns. I just don't think that legalization or decriminalization will make things worse. In fact, I think it will make things better, especially since it would cost a lot less to offer rehab and job training compared to the cost of imprisoning people and spending so much money on law enforcement. Two of us have mentioned that when Portugal made their drug laws more lenient, there wasn't any increase in drug usage. I doubt that the illegality of drugs deters usage, or at least not much. We can probably agree that alcohol is one of the worst drugs out there and it's legal. Most people don't abuse it, but there will always be some that do. That would likely be the case if other drugs were legal.

A lot of young people experiment with drugs. I never did but my sister tried just about everything she could get her hands on. She drank too much when she was in her 20s, but then settled down by the time she was about 30. She doesn't even drink now. Weed makes her paranoid, but she does take an anti anxiety agent prescribed by her doctor. That's a control drug that is often abused too. She uses it very conservatively. It seemed like almost every young person was experimenting with drugs in the late 60s and early 70s. I was the straight weird one.

Perhaps if drugs were decriminalized, younger people who want to experiment could do so safely. Legalization would give the government more control over the substances. Drugs wouldn't be laced with unknown, dangerous substances. Anyway.....I've said more than enough. I doubt legalization at the federal level will come in my lifetime.

One more thing.....

There will always be abusive or neglectful parents, regardless if it's drug related or due to something else.

Very few people are going to suddenly want to shoot up heroin or use cocaine just because they are legal. But, speaking of cocaine, my husband once worked in a place that made contact lenses, where the doctors and most of the managers used coke, so they could work long shifts. Mr. Sohy never used, but he told me some crazy stories about that place. No surprise the place went bankrupt after a few years. That was in the 80s, when cocaine was very popular. At least it was in Raleigh, NC. Illegality doesn't stop people from using, and it's not the drugs, if used in moderation that ruins one's life, it's being arrested and given a long prison sentence that ruins one's life.

I get it though. We have different perspectives based on our experiences and influences.

Story of two brothers is true. They were 2 years apart and in high school together. The older brother was more of an introvert. The younger, the opposite. Growing up in an upper middle class household in a very, very nice inner ring suburb of a fairly major city, they attended a lot of the same parties while in HS. OB (older brother) drank a fair amount, a habit that continued, but not problematically, through college and somewhat into his adult job holding life. He also did some experimentation with the drugs of the day, none of which were addicting the way that cocaine or heroin is. He always could take it or walk away, although he's said many times, he sees how one could become an addict. He earned his degree and grad degree and established a pretty good career, married, raised children and drinks very little. Hasn't touched the other stuff in decades.


YB (younger brother) was instantly, or nearly instantly 'grabbed' by excessive alcohol use and abused alcohol and recreational drugs throughout high school. He totaled more than one car while under the influence, thankfully hurting no one except himself. He was always brought home by the nice police officers who were happy to take home the handsome, well spoken if absolutely plastered boy with a very nice address, no charges. YB was always employed and there was always another car, another drunk night, with whatever drugs he could score. Worked in trades out of high school and was very talented at his work, had good union jobs. Lost them all due to the abuse of alcohol and drugs. Was violent with parents and Third Brother and stole from them. Parents tried to get him into rehab a number of times and tried a 72 hr. psych hold when he was really off the rails. By off the rails, even his drinking buddies/drugging buddies and maybe his dealer called his parents to express concern that he was going to inadvertently kill himself. Checked himself out of every rehab because none of them would allow him to continue to use. Continued....to this day, including having a child who is now an adult and who was seriously neglected by both parents and grew up in squalor and has somehow managed to do much better for himself. He's successful in a union job in the trades, whittles away at a degree, is married with children. YB, now a father and grandfather, has done a couple of stints in prison, none on drug charges, and has also done some jail time for things like DUI and drunk and disorderly. He's about to turn 65 and is panicking because he has zero savings. ZERO. Although he has always been employed, mostly at decently paying jobs, every day except when he was incarcerated, he still has zero savings, zero assets. His brothers barely tolerate him; his son tries to tolerate him but isn't comfortable with him around his kids. YB has numerous serious/potentially fatal health problems and some obvious cognitive decline.

Beyond a couple of DUIs and drunk and disorderlies, none of his other arrests/incarcerations were directly related to drug or alcohol use/abuse.

I cannot even begin to hazard a guess at the thousands of dollars he has cost his family when he stole from them, much less when they tried to help him or how many thousands of dollars he's defrauded from the state and federal govt.

This, and the now adults who I knew as young kids into their adulthood, who were raised by people who were highly, highly dysfunctional or by other family members because their own parents were that dysfunctional--just more dysfunctional than the family members who actually 'raised' them---at least one of whom posts frequently about his own numerous diagnosis, including PTSD from a LOT of childhood trauma---Those are the reasons I give pause. We must find a way to address addiction, and mental health. I wish I were convinced that decreasing prison populations would free up funds that would be so used.

I am much less expressing opposition to decriminalization of most drugs (knowingly consumed by the user) than I am expressing concern about increasing the types of societal ills I've mentioned in this very, very long post.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

Legalization of drugs doesn't fix the flaw in our "intelligent design". The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be addressed. Relegalization of alcohol didn't come at no price. Nearly a century later, we are losing over 10,000 a year in drunk driving accidents.

So the idea that legalization solves it, is folly. Just because prison is a bad idea doesn't make any arbitrary resolution 'good'. We need to stop putting addicts in jail though, and we need to look at drugs in a mature manner to determine how best to regulate them in our country, both in its quality (fentanyl) and it's addiction.

 

[Elixir]

The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be is more easily and humanely addressed.

FIFY.
Again, check the Portugal model.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be is more easily and humanely addressed.

FIFY.
Again, check the Portugal model.

Okay...



Yes, she is beautiful, but I'm not following.

 

[Elixir]

Damya Higgins, now I've forgotten what I was on about...

 

[southernhybrid]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

Legalization of drugs doesn't fix the flaw in our "intelligent design". The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be addressed. Relegalization of alcohol didn't come at no price. Nearly a century later, we are losing over 10,000 a year in drunk driving accidents.

So the idea that legalization solves it, is folly. Just because prison is a bad idea doesn't make any arbitrary resolution 'good'. We need to stop putting addicts in jail though, and we need to look at drugs in a mature manner to determine how best to regulate them in our country, both in its quality (fentanyl) and it's addiction.

I totally agree that legalization doesn't fix all of the problems related to drug usage, but legalization or decriminalization, lowers the cost of enforcement, and imprisonment, and keeps users from spending years in prison. There is nothing that will solve all of societies problems. I just believe that making drugs illegal and imprisoning non violent people for using doesn't solve a thing, and in many cases it makes things worse.

And since you mentioned fentanyl, a drug that some of my former patients took for severe chronic pain, if drugs were legal, they wouldn't be laced with fentanyl and users would know exactly what they were getting. It would drastically reduce overdoses and deaths. Even fentanyl can be used without any untoward side effects, if used correctly at doses that don't kill. I doubt it's even used any longer for pain, since so many other less severe opioids have been laced with it.

I don't think any of us who support legalization believe that legalization will solve societies ills. Nothing will do that. Humans are imperfect and sadly, the brain disorder known as psychopathy is too common, especially among those in high places. But, I digress. Psychopathy might make for an interesting discussion in the appropriate place some time.

 

[Elixir]

if drugs were legal, they wouldn't be laced with fentanyl and users would know exactly what they were getting

I don't think that would be true, at least not right away. It would take a while for most people to realize that saving a few bucks by buying someone's bathtub brew instead of a reputable laboratory's product, is not worth one's life.

I believe that legalization would come with a hefty death toll in the very near term, but would save countless lives and improve countless more over the medium and long runs.

 

[southernhybrid]

if drugs were legal, they wouldn't be laced with fentanyl and users would know exactly what they were getting

I don't think that would be true, at least not right away. It would take a while for most people to realize that saving a few bucks by buying someone's bathtub brew instead of a reputable laboratory's product, is not worth one's life.

I believe that legalization would come with a hefty death toll in the very near term, but would save countless lives and improve countless more over the medium and long runs.

That's entirely possible, but I was thinking of the newish text strips that one can use to test if something is laced with fentanyl. It's already saved some lives. Sadly, some idiots in high places in some states, want to ban them, as they believe that will cause more young people to experiment with drugs. There was either a news piece or an article I read about a group of young college students, who were going to use some opioids, but they tested the drugs for fentanyl prior to using. The drugs they had bought illegally were all laced with fentanyl, so they destroyed them. If they had taken them, it's possible that one or more of them would have died.

 

[Hermit]

I believe that legalization would come with a hefty death toll in the very near term...

That is not what happened in Portugal.

...but would save countless lives and improve countless more over the medium and long runs.

That is what happened in Portugal, except the lives saved were pretty much countable, at least in terms of the reduction in overdoses and AIDS cases.

It's worth mentioning that Portugal did not legalise drugs. It decriminalised their use.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

You being concerned with whether they will escalate is not evidence they will escalate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

Legalization of drugs doesn't fix the flaw in our "intelligent design". The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be addressed. Relegalization of alcohol didn't come at no price. Nearly a century later, we are losing over 10,000 a year in drunk driving accidents.

So the idea that legalization solves it, is folly. Just because prison is a bad idea doesn't make any arbitrary resolution 'good'. We need to stop putting addicts in jail though, and we need to look at drugs in a mature manner to determine how best to regulate them in our country, both in its quality (fentanyl) and it's addiction.

I totally agree that legalization doesn't fix all of the problems related to drug usage, but legalization or decriminalization, lowers the cost of enforcement, and imprisonment, and keeps users from spending years in prison. There is nothing that will solve all of societies problems. I just believe that making drugs illegal and imprisoning non violent people for using doesn't solve a thing, and in many cases it makes things worse.

And since you mentioned fentanyl, a drug that some of my former patients took for severe chronic pain, if drugs were legal, they wouldn't be laced with fentanyl and users would know exactly what they were getting. It would drastically reduce overdoses and deaths. Even fentanyl can be used without any untoward side effects, if used correctly at doses that don't kill. I doubt it's even used any longer for pain, since so many other less severe opioids have been laced with it.

I don't think any of us who support legalization believe that legalization will solve societies ills. Nothing will do that. Humans are imperfect and sadly, the brain disorder known as psychopathy is too common, especially among those in high places. But, I digress. Psychopathy might make for an interesting discussion in the appropriate place some time.

Elixir loosely said: "If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what"."

My response was to that specifically. Yes, we should legalize some drugs, decriminalize others. But the 'so what' thing seemed to ignore the problem that legalized drugs will still mean addictions and overdoses and more progressive rock music, and these are all things we are desperately trying to eliminate. I'm not claiming any answers, just saying, some problems don't disappear and other problems that do disappear actually transform into others.

I think cost could be a big problem. If illegal drugs can be produced for less (and/or go untaxed), we might not accomplish as much as we hoped.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

Legalization of drugs doesn't fix the flaw in our "intelligent design". The problem doesn't go away, it merely transform into something else that needs to be addressed. Relegalization of alcohol didn't come at no price. Nearly a century later, we are losing over 10,000 a year in drunk driving accidents.

So the idea that legalization solves it, is folly. Just because prison is a bad idea doesn't make any arbitrary resolution 'good'. We need to stop putting addicts in jail though, and we need to look at drugs in a mature manner to determine how best to regulate them in our country, both in its quality (fentanyl) and it's addiction.

Legalization doesn't do anything about the harm the drugs cause, except where that harm is due too low quality drugs. It takes a very big bite out of the harm caused by acquiring the drugs.