Addiction and drug legalization/decriminalization (split from First World Problems)

[Loren Pechtel]

if drugs were legal, they wouldn't be laced with fentanyl and users would know exactly what they were getting

I don't think that would be true, at least not right away. It would take a while for most people to realize that saving a few bucks by buying someone's bathtub brew instead of a reputable laboratory's product, is not worth one's life.

I believe that legalization would come with a hefty death toll in the very near term, but would save countless lives and improve countless more over the medium and long runs.

Unless they go nuts with the taxes the lab product would be cheaper.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

You being concerned with whether they will escalate is not evidence they will escalate.

Alcoholism is a pretty strong indicator that it could be a problem. The question becomes how many new addicts, verses how many just choose drugs over alcohol.

 

[Toni]

Prison destroys more lives than drugs. I've read many articles lately about our prison system. Most of them are hell holes.

Not to mention, hardly a place of respite from drug culture; manhy people booked for recreational drugs leave that system hooked on harder stuff. The term "correctional facility" is a sick joke.

If drugs were legal it would be a big "so what". All the drug related crime right wingers complain about could disappear. It would be even better if those drugs all grew on common trees in refined form, so people could learn not to fuck with them at zero cost. Or not, and ...

This is a sticking point for me. I know too many people raised by alcoholics and drug addicts and sometimes both kinds of addicts to say, yeah, legalization will make all the problems go away. It won't. It won't solve all of the domestic horrors that come with living with an addict. I also have a difficult time believing that drug addicts will stop stealing to support their habit--after all, alcoholics often steal to get money. Nor will they regain more emotional control and/or mental acuity so will no longer be violent and will be able to hold down jobs, look after themselves and any children they brought into the world, be decent family members or contributors to society. Of course some will do just that, be functional addicts just as there are functional alcoholics and functional addicts today, those who manage to hold down jobs and even manage to keep a family, stable housing, etc. Even with the highest functioning addict, those around them pay an extremely high price. Forever. I don't see getting high/drunk as being terrible. I see the fall out to those surrounding those who continually get drunk/high/both as terrible.

The point is all the harms you point to already exist and there's no reason to think they'll get worse with legalization.

And I'd much prefer the property crime of alcoholics to being mugged by a crack addict.

Legalization won’t make for fewer crack addicts. It won’t make fewer affects at all.

I agree that we already struggle, as a society, to deal with the issues I brought up. I’m concerned they will escalate as those who are actually deterred by the laws against drug use start using drugs. I’m concerned there already are not enough treatment programs for addicts, and not enough support for the families of addicts. Society is paying an enormous cost because of addiction. We really need to get a handle on addressing it before we expand the opportunities for abuse and addiction.

You being concerned with whether they will escalate is not evidence they will escalate.

You having an opinion about my opinion does not make your opinion more valid than mine. In fact, we may not have yet seen the peak in number of addicts. Even a very cursory reading of a police blotter will tell you that there are many, many addicts who are not arrested on drug charges but are arrested on drug adjacent charges. Or ask any public defender how many of their clients are not struggling with addiction(s). The number will be extremely small.

Unfortunately the problems society has with addicts will not disappear or even decrease if all substances become legal. The number of those arrested and charged with dealing is quite small compared to the number of addicts.

 

[Elixir]

It won’t make fewer affects at all.

If cocaine is legal and $10/ounce it will reduce or eliminate muggings.
(I know that ain't gonna happen in MY lifetime - maybe yours. Meanwhile, DON'T GET MUGGED!)

 

[Toni]

What would that do for the price of meth? Cocaine is so old fashioned..,

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What would that do for the price of meth? Cocaine is so old fashioned..,

There is a Chapelle sketch here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Chapelle in White face: And the needle shortage is into its second week. The President announced he will be invoking the War Production Act to increase national needle production. And now to take a look at the commodities market, Dale with heroin.

Dale (almost unconscious): The... spot.. price of heroin went ... ... up or ... yeah. Freeze in Afghanistan reduced poppy pro... pro... duction by 15 percent... ... .... ...

Chapelle: Dale? ... I guess he was finished. Now to Eric covering weed.

Eric (eating bag of chips, blood shot eyes): Hey man. Everything is like totally fine here. Snacks are abundant.

Chapelle: That’s good to hear, now Chuck with cocaine. Chuck?

Chuck: WHAT?! Oh... the cocaine market was steady today as imports from Colombia are looking strong deapite the initial concerns over the hurricane that struck their shipping lines!

Chapelle: Woah... thanks Chuck. Niw Johann with a look at the Acid/PCP market.

Johann: Help! The teleprompter is trying to eat me!!!!

 

[ZiprHead]

Legalization doesn't do anything about the harm the drugs cause, except where that harm is due too low quality drugs. It takes a very big bite out of the harm caused by acquiring the drugs.

The biggest harm of drugs is the incarceration system.

 

[Elixir]

Relegalization of alcohol didn't come at no price. Nearly a century later, we are losing over 10,000 a year in drunk driving accidents.

So the idea that legalization solves it, is folly.

During prohibition things were worse by most measures. Societal ills included entire cities and regions being violently controlled by murderous crime bosses . People didn’t prefer that.
But for some reason they do prefer to make the same mistake with every toxin on the planet… ‘cept botulinum toxin of course.
TDMTP

 

[Tharmas]

I’d like to add my 2¢.

First, I am a recovered alcoholic and drug abuser, so my thoughts on this topic relate more to personal experience than any formal study.

I believe most drugs should be made legal. I don’t think decriminalization is really an answer.

Legalization does not mean making drugs available willy-nilly. It means regulation, like we have with alcohol, or maybe even more stringent.

When I was on my way to becoming a full-blown alcoholic, in high school, alcohol was pretty difficult for me to come by. There were decrepit liquor stores in some of the seedier areas of town that would sell me beer out of the back door, at exorbitant prices. I could steal out of my parent’s liquor cabinet. I had a friend with a phony ID. I tried making wine once out of grape juice with regular baker’s yeast (that’s actually a funny story).

But meanwhile, I could get a hold of, and used, pot, meth, acid, psilocybin, DMT, MDA, and even opium, as well as others I can’t think of now. Why? Because unlike alcohol, they were easy for me to get, completely unregulated.

• When I lived in Canada (British Columbia) in the 70s, alcohol purchase was regulated by the state – the government owned the liquor stores and you could only legally buy from them. They were basically a 9 to 5, six days a week kind of deal. This did not stop the alcoholics from drinking too much, but I’m sure it cut down on underage drinking and maybe kept a lid on things. I was aware of “bootleggers,” but they weren’t selling hooch from home-made stills. Rather, they were selling legally purchased booze after hours. (Rousseau can correct me or bring this up-to-date).
• I strongly believe that alcoholism and other drug abuse has two factors, a genetic component and a psychological component. I believe certain populations may be more prone to substance abuse, but still, it is a combination of those two factors, nature and nurture if you will. I don’t think making more drugs available will change the percentage of abusers in a population. You will notice that an open bar at a reception or party does not mean every guest drinks until they pass out. Some people simply don’t like to drink. In my case, cocaine never did anything for me and I refused to waste my money on the stuff.

I agree very strongly that the answer to abuse is not incarceration, and is not in making certain drugs illegal. Instead I vote for education and regulation.

 

[steve_bank]

I have to say yes.

Here in Seattle there is an observable link between decriminalization and allowing public use of drugs with increasing problems.

Staring in the 60s drugs became normalized. It was in the music and movies. Cheech And Chong. In Clapton's live version of the song cocaine the crowd cants along 'Cocaine!'.

Add to that we have become a drug culture including pharmaceuticals.

Were awash in TV commercials for supplements and pharmaceuticals. Got a problem, take a drug.

Of course the left politicians in Seattle will never admit policy has led to problems.

Drugs are interwoven in culture and it can not be removed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’d like to add my 2¢.

First, I am a recovered alcoholic and drug abuser, so my thoughts on this topic relate more to personal experience than any formal study.

I believe most drugs should be made legal. I don’t think decriminalization is really an answer.

Legalization does not mean making drugs available willy-nilly. It means regulation, like we have with alcohol, or maybe even more stringent.

When I was on my way to becoming a full-blown alcoholic, in high school, alcohol was pretty difficult for me to come by. There were decrepit liquor stores in some of the seedier areas of town that would sell me beer out of the back door, at exorbitant prices. I could steal out of my parent’s liquor cabinet. I had a friend with a phony ID. I tried making wine once out of grape juice with regular baker’s yeast (that’s actually a funny story).

But meanwhile, I could get a hold of, and used, pot, meth, acid, psilocybin, DMT, MDA, and even opium, as well as others I can’t think of now. Why? Because unlike alcohol, they were easy for me to get, completely unregulated.

This. We should also pay attention to what happened in Amsterdam--legalization didn't change usage, permitting advertising did. They quickly went back to prohibiting advertising it. The current system pushes people towards the hard stuff, exactly the opposite of what would be best for society.

For the addictive stuff I would also accept available by prescription to addicts instead.

 

[steve_bank]

Here in Washington pot shops have become targets for robbers. Multiple shootings and at least one dead.

When legalization was being taked abiut the idea was decriminaliza pot so people coud grow thee own and get criminals out of the pot business.

The way it tyred out pot became more or less a state business. In Washington in the past yuur coud buy hard liquor only in stste stores. It was profitable to the state. A referndum got rid of that so liquor coud be sold in grocery srtores and other stores.

Washington govt jumped on pot as a revenue source. License fees for growers and sellers, and taxes on buyers.

Other states that have legalized recreational cannabis already allow home growing, but Washington does not. Washington state residents have long been able to brew their own beer in their basement, or ferment homemade wine in their living room.Jan 25, 2021

We went from illegal to a govt business. That defines part of the drug problem.

 

[Elixir]

Government business?
The State playing in a sector that is ostracized from the federal banking system, making it a shiny bauble dangling in front of robbers …
The problem is not that it’s legal, the problem is that it’s NOT.

 

[steve_bank]

The robbery problem is that federal law prhibits usng plastic for buying pot.

The issue is that Washington ste made it a state business like liquor used to be promoting use of pot, while not allowing home growing. The govt is promoting recreational drugs.

If it were federally decriminalized we would undoubtedly see tobacco companiess selling joints.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here in Washington pot shops have become targets for robbers. Multiple shootings and at least one dead.

When legalization was being taked abiut the idea was decriminaliza pot so people coud grow thee own and get criminals out of the pot business.

The way it tyred out pot became more or less a state business. In Washington in the past yuur coud buy hard liquor only in stste stores. It was profitable to the state. A referndum got rid of that so liquor coud be sold in grocery srtores and other stores.

Washington govt jumped on pot as a revenue source. License fees for growers and sellers, and taxes on buyers.

Other states that have legalized recreational cannabis already allow home growing, but Washington does not. Washington state residents have long been able to brew their own beer in their basement, or ferment homemade wine in their living room.Jan 25, 2021

We went from illegal to a govt business. That defines part of the drug problem.

Well, duh! The feds keep the pot shops out of the normal financial marketplace, and thus they have huge amounts of cash on hand. This isn't a pot problem, it's a fed problem. I think it's a deliberate roadblock--make it hazardous and make it convenient for the police to "rob" them with no recourse.

 

[steve_bank]

The police robbing pot shops? Ehere did that come frp=om.

Around here it is armed robbery including murder.

 

[bilby]

The police robbing pot shops? Ehere did that come frp=om.

Around here it is armed robbery including murder.

Willie Sutton could have predicted that.

If you put a pile of cash somewhere, it attracts armed robbers.

Drugs have bugger-all to do with it.