Affirmative Action (split from shooting du jour)

[Loren Pechtel]

This new talking point that “Affirmative Action equals institutional racism” is grasping at straws. It’s a cute and handy soundbite, but it so seriously mangles the power imbalance and the discussion of actual harm that it sounds most like an instinctive white supremacy retaliation.


I find it to be deeply immoral in it’s apparent attempt to whitewash harmful racism against marginalized communities with completely asymmetrical whataboutism.

The power balance has nothing to do with whether something is racism, thus you are not rebutting at all. And it's not a new point at all--we have been saying it all along.

 

[Derec]

This new talking point that “Affirmative Action equals institutional racism” is grasping at straws.

It's practiced by institutions, and it's racist on its face. Hardly grasping at straws, just revealing it for what it is.

It’s a cute and handy soundbite, but it so seriously mangles the power imbalance and the discussion of actual harm that it sounds most like an instinctive white supremacy retaliation.

To say that treating people equally without regard to their race is "white supremacy" is really an example of "Newspeak".

I find it to be deeply immoral in it’s apparent attempt to whitewash harmful racism against marginalized communities with completely asymmetrical whataboutism.

I find it deeply immoral to have admission and hiring standards be different based on the color of the skin of the applicant.

 

[Derec]

Germany is still paying war reparations today on behalf of a regime that ceased to exist in May 1945.

What do war reparations have to do with open-ended policy to treat people differently based on gender and race for purposes of admissions or employment?

 

[Hermit]

Affirmative Action is institutional racism.

Germany is still paying war reparations today on behalf of a regime that ceased to exist in May 1945. Between 1952 and 1964 3 billion Deutschmarks went directly to the state of Israel. From Wikipedia's article titled Reparations Agreement between Israel and the Federal Republic of Germany:

The reparations were paid directly to the headquarters of the Israeli purchase delegation in Cologne, which received the money from the German government in annual installments. The delegation then bought goods and shipped them to Israel, receiving its orders from a Tel Aviv-based company that had been set up to decide what to purchase and for whom. A great part of the reparations money went into purchasing equipment and raw materials for companies that were owned by the government, the Jewish Agency, and the Histadrut labor union. Notably, much of that money went into purchasing equipment for about 1,300 industrial plants; two-thirds of this money was given to 36 factories, most of them owned by the Histadrut. At the same time, hundreds of other plants, mostly privately owned ones, received minimal assistance with reparations money. From 1953 to 1963, the reparations money funded around one-third of investment in Israel's electrical system, helping it to triple its capacity, and nearly half the total investment in Israel Railways, which obtained German-made rolling stock, tracks, and signaling equipment with reparations money. The reparations were also used to purchase German-made machinery for developing the water supply, oil drilling, mining equipment for use in extracting copper from the Timna Valley mines, and heavy equipment for agriculture and construction such as combines, tractors, and trucks. About 30% of the reparations money went into buying fuel, while 17% was used to purchase ships for the Israeli merchant fleet; some fifty ships including two passenger liners were purchased, and by 1961, these vessels constituted two-thirds of the Israeli merchant marine. Funds from the reparations were also used for port development; the Port of Haifa was able to obtain new cranes, including a floating crane that was named Bar Kokhba. The Bank of Israel credited the reparations for about 15% of Israel's GNP growth and the creation of 45,000 jobs during the 12-year period they had been in effect, though the BoI report also noted that the funds received were not crucial in that Israel would have secured the funds in any case from other sources.[11]

Would you regard that as an example of institutional racism?

Is Germany a race?

There is just one race. It's called the human race, but the Third Reich treated Jews as a race, killed 6 million of them, used millions more as slave labour and robbed all others blind. Post-war German governments paid billions of dollars to the Jewish state for their treatment. In other words, a later government paid members of a minority a previous had discriminated against huge amounts of money to help them get out of the disadvantages said discrimination had caused. Looks very similar to what TomC labelled "institutional racism".

Payments from one sovereign nation to another isn't affirmative action.

Affirmative action is the active effort to improve the lot of groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the past. That is precisely what the Reparations Agreement between Israel and the Federal Republic of Germany is about.

 

[Metaphor]

Affirmative Action is institutional racism.

Germany is still paying war reparations today on behalf of a regime that ceased to exist in May 1945. Between 1952 and 1964 3 billion Deutschmarks went directly to the state of Israel. From Wikipedia's article titled Reparations Agreement between Israel and the Federal Republic of Germany:

The reparations were paid directly to the headquarters of the Israeli purchase delegation in Cologne, which received the money from the German government in annual installments. The delegation then bought goods and shipped them to Israel, receiving its orders from a Tel Aviv-based company that had been set up to decide what to purchase and for whom. A great part of the reparations money went into purchasing equipment and raw materials for companies that were owned by the government, the Jewish Agency, and the Histadrut labor union. Notably, much of that money went into purchasing equipment for about 1,300 industrial plants; two-thirds of this money was given to 36 factories, most of them owned by the Histadrut. At the same time, hundreds of other plants, mostly privately owned ones, received minimal assistance with reparations money. From 1953 to 1963, the reparations money funded around one-third of investment in Israel's electrical system, helping it to triple its capacity, and nearly half the total investment in Israel Railways, which obtained German-made rolling stock, tracks, and signaling equipment with reparations money. The reparations were also used to purchase German-made machinery for developing the water supply, oil drilling, mining equipment for use in extracting copper from the Timna Valley mines, and heavy equipment for agriculture and construction such as combines, tractors, and trucks. About 30% of the reparations money went into buying fuel, while 17% was used to purchase ships for the Israeli merchant fleet; some fifty ships including two passenger liners were purchased, and by 1961, these vessels constituted two-thirds of the Israeli merchant marine. Funds from the reparations were also used for port development; the Port of Haifa was able to obtain new cranes, including a floating crane that was named Bar Kokhba. The Bank of Israel credited the reparations for about 15% of Israel's GNP growth and the creation of 45,000 jobs during the 12-year period they had been in effect, though the BoI report also noted that the funds received were not crucial in that Israel would have secured the funds in any case from other sources.[11]

Would you regard that as an example of institutional racism?

Is Germany a race?

There is just one race. It's called the human race, but the Third Reich treated Jews as a race, killed 6 million of them, used millions more as slave labour and robbed all others blind. Post-war German governments paid billions of dollars to the Jewish state for their treatment. In other words, a later government paid members of a minority a previous had discriminated against huge amounts of money to help them get out of the disadvantages said discrimination had caused. Looks very similar to what TomC labelled "institutional racism".

So, no, Germany isn't a race, and Germany does not discriminate based on ethnicity amongst her own citizens.

Payments from one sovereign nation to another isn't affirmative action.

Affirmative action is the active effort to improve the lot of groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the past. That is precisely what the Reparations Agreement between Israel and the Federal Republic of Germany is about.

Affirmative action discriminates against individuals of the unfavoured ethnicity or sex in order to benefit individuals of the favoured ethnicity or sex.

Whatever one nation does in choosing to compensate another is not affirmative action.

 

[TomC]

Looks very similar to what TomC labelled "institutional racism".

I see a tenuous connection, but a bunch of huge differences. For one thing, Germany didn't decide to do this. It was forced upon them by the victorious Allies. For another, they were really returning stolen loot to the victims. Before being slaughtered and driven out, European Jews were systematically looted. Property, bank accounts, pretty much everything. The Germans were being forced to return it to the people that they stole it from, at least the survivors. That's very different from the great great grandchildren of oppressed people demanding reparations from the great great grandchildren of the oppressors.(or anyone of a similar race)

Affirmative action is the active effort to improve the lot of groups that have been subjected to discrimination in the past.

By using institutional racism.

Obviously, institutional racism isn't necessarily bad. But this raises the question. What was the best thing in 1972 isn't necessarily the best thing in 2022. Is Affirmative Action still in anybody's best interests?
Tom

 

[Toni]

The risk/benefit is not spread out evenly across the US nor across a region or a state or a city, for that matter. The US is generally more segregated now compared with 50-60 years ago.

Citation needed.
[typical Toni anecdote of her standing up to some evil cis hetero white male snipped]

My apologies for not citing something that I believed anyone who was somewhat current with US news and culture would be aware:

The U.S. Is Increasingly Diverse, So Why Is Segregation Getting Worse?

In 2019, 169 out of 209 metropolitan regions in the U.S. were more segregated than in 1990, a new analysis finds.

time.com

Separate and unequal: Persistent residential segregation is sustaining racial and economic injustice in the U.S | Brookings

Introduction Separate and unequal Modernizing family Risky (housing) business The office, reimagined Retail revolution Editor’s Note: For more info on content related to Community Ownership of Real Estate, please visit our page here. Very few Americans live in neighborhoods that are...

www.brookings.edu

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/segregation-us-cities/

U.S. Residential Segregation Is Likely to Get Worse: New Study

This week’s top stories:

www.bloomberg.com

This is not universally true. For instance, the town where I grew up was almost 100% white. So white that friends who moved away for college found out from new friends who were black that black people knew never to stop there for gas or a meal when traveling. Today, it is much more diverse, the school system is much better and there is actual growth. It's still a small town, well under 10K.

 

[TomC]

This is not universally true. For instance, the town where I grew up was almost 100% white. So white that friends who moved away for college found out from new friends who were black that black people knew never to stop there for gas or a meal when traveling. Today, it is much more diverse, the school system is much better and there is actual growth. It's still a small town, well under

I grew up in a town extremely like that, only a bit larger.

How does that justify Affirmative Action in 2022? Say, WRT university admissions policy?
Tom

 

[Toni]

This is not universally true. For instance, the town where I grew up was almost 100% white. So white that friends who moved away for college found out from new friends who were black that black people knew never to stop there for gas or a meal when traveling. Today, it is much more diverse, the school system is much better and there is actual growth. It's still a small town, well under

I grew up in a town extremely like that, only a bit larger.

How does that justify Affirmative Action in 2022? Say, WRT university admissions policy?
Tom

Do you think that most black kids are given the same educational opportunities by the time they graduate from high school as most white kids?

 

[TomC]

Do you think that most black kids are given the same educational opportunities by the time they graduate from high school as most white kids?

No. I'm sure that they won't.

Do you think that giving the black children of professional parents preferential treatment will improve that situation? I don't see how it will.
Quite the contrary.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Do you think that most black kids are given the same educational opportunities by the time they graduate from high school as most white kids?

No. I'm sure that they won't.

Do you think that giving the black children of professional parents preferential treatment will improve that situation? I don't see how it will.
Quite the contrary.
Tom

You seem to think that all black students admitted to universities get there due to affirmative action. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Toni]

Do you think that most black kids are given the same educational opportunities by the time they graduate from high school as most white kids?

No. I'm sure that they won't.

Do you think that giving the black children of professional parents preferential treatment will improve that situation? I don't see how it will.
Quite the contrary.
Tom

What ‘situation’ are you thinking will be made worse by affirmative action with regards to college admissions?

Do you believe that affluent, high achieving black people and their children do not face discrimination on the basis of race?

 

[TomC]

You seem to think that all black students admitted to universities get there due to affirmative action. Am I understanding you correctly?

As usual,

No, you are misrepresenting me.
Tom

 

[Toni]

You seem to think that all black students admitted to universities get there due to affirmative action. Am I understanding you correctly?

As usual,

No, you are misrepresenting me.
Tom

My post was an inquiry and an invitation for you to clarify so that I understand what you mean.

 

[TomC]

What ‘situation’ are you thinking will be made worse by affirmative action with regards to college admissions?

I can think of a few without trying.
Can you?

Do you believe that affluent, high achieving black people and their children do not face discrimination on the basis of race?

I didn't say that.
Your ability to ignore what I actually say and fight with strawman versions is irritating.

Do you think that the Obama girls face as much discrimination as a blue collar white kid?
Tom

 

[TomC]

You seem to think that all black students admitted to universities get there due to affirmative action. Am I understanding you correctly?

As usual,

No, you are misrepresenting me.
Tom

My post was an inquiry and an invitation for you to clarify so that I understand what you mean.

I think that's called JAQing.
Tom

 

[Toni]

You seem to think that all black students admitted to universities get there due to affirmative action. Am I understanding you correctly?

As usual,

No, you are misrepresenting me.
Tom

My post was an inquiry and an invitation for you to clarify so that I understand what you mean.

I think that's called JAQing.
Tom

I’m honestly asking what you meant.

I don’t know what it is that you are doing..

 

[TomC]

I’m honestly asking what you meant.

I don’t know what it is that you are doing..

I'm pointing out that there are downsides to institutional racism, regardless of how well intentioned it might be.
Tom

 

[TomC]

Here's a pretty clear example.

Suppose an HR director gets two nearly identical resumes, people applying for a job. One black, the other white.

A reasonably savvy HR director will know that the white applicant got the credentials with Affirmative Action working against them. The black applicant had Affirmative Action working for them. All else equal, the white applicant is probably better.

This is completely the opposite of 50 years ago. But it is the modern reality.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I’m honestly asking what you meant.

I don’t know what it is that you are doing..

I'm pointing out that there are downsides to institutional racism, regardless of how well intentioned it might be.
Tom

I think almost all of us see institutional racism as a huge downside.

But I thought you were talking about affirmative action??

I’m genuinely not following you. I have no idea what you are talking about and I really do wish you’d clarify.