Affirmative Action (split from shooting du jour)

[TomC]

I think we all agree that institutional racism is a huge downside.

But I thought you were talking about affirmative action?

Affirmative Action is institutional racism.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Here's a pretty clear example.

Suppose an HR director gets two nearly identical resumes, people applying for a job. One black, the other white.

A reasonably savvy HR director will know that the white applicant got the credentials with Affirmative Action working against them. The black applicant had Affirmative Action working for them. All else equal, the white applicant is probably better.

This is completely the opposite of 50 years ago. But it is the modern reality.
Tom

How did someone get credentials ‘with affirmative action working against them?’

Why do you assume that a black applicant only earned their credentials because of affirmative action?

 

[Toni]

I think we all agree that institutional racism is a huge downside.

But I thought you were talking about affirmative action?

Affirmative Action is institutional racism.
Tom

No.

I was hoping that was not what you meant but since it is, I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

 

[TomC]

How did someone get credentials ‘with affirmative action working against them?’

By working harder, smarter, ...
I don't know about any particular person.

But people get credentials all the time. Affirmative Action works in favor of some people and against others.
Based on race.

Why do you assume that a black applicant only earned their credentials because of affirmative action?

I didn't say that.
It's really hard to carry on a conversation with you when you won't respond to what I post, but make up strawman stuff and ask about that.
Tom

 

[TomC]

I was hoping that was not what you meant but since it is, I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

I can well understand why you prefer not to have your prejudices interfered with.
Tom

 

[Toni]

How did someone get credentials ‘with affirmative action working against them?’

By working harder, smarter, ...
I don't know about any particular person.

But people get credentials all the time. Affirmative Action works in favor of some people and against others.
Based on race.

Why do you assume that a black applicant only earned their credentials because of affirmative action?

I didn't say that.
It's really hard to carry on a conversation with you when you won't respond to what I post, but make up strawman stuff and ask about that.
Tom

You said the black applicant had affirmative action working for them.

 

[Toni]

I was hoping that was not what you meant but since it is, I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

I can well understand why you prefer not to have your prejudices interfered with.
Tom

Wow.

 

[TomC]

You said the black applicant had affirmative action working for them.

Are you saying that AA doesn't?
It's the whole point to AA.
Tom

 

[TomC]

I was hoping that was not what you meant but since it is, I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

I can well understand why you prefer not to have your prejudices interfered with.
Tom

Wow.

There's a post that was a waste of time.
Tom

 

[bilby]

You said the black applicant had affirmative action working for them.

Are you saying that AA doesn't?
It's the whole point to AA.
Tom

My understanding is that AA gets opportunities for people who might otherwise not get those opportunities. It doesn't help those so admitted to succeed in realising that opportunity.

Admission to college is a prerequisite to attempt to obtain a degree from that college; But whether an individual graduates once admitted is entirely dependent on their ability as demonstrated when examined at the end of the course.

AA lets them sit the tests. It doesn't make it any easier to pass them than it is for anyone else who's allowed to sit them, so the final qualification is equally informative.

Denigrating that equal qualification on the basis that the applicant was "helped" by AA is both ignorant and racist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a pretty clear example.

Suppose an HR director gets two nearly identical resumes, people applying for a job. One black, the other white.

A reasonably savvy HR director will know that the white applicant got the credentials with Affirmative Action working against them. The black applicant had Affirmative Action working for them. All else equal, the white applicant is probably better.

This is completely the opposite of 50 years ago. But it is the modern reality.
Tom

You don't know the white guy is better, but it is suspicious.

The current system makes blacks like the boss' nephew.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Here's a pretty clear example.

Suppose an HR director gets two nearly identical resumes, people applying for a job. One black, the other white.

A reasonably savvy HR director will know that the white applicant got the credentials with Affirmative Action working against them. The black applicant had Affirmative Action working for them. All else equal, the white applicant is probably better.

This is completely the opposite of 50 years ago. But it is the modern reality.
Tom

How did someone get credentials ‘with affirmative action working against them?’

Why do you assume that a black applicant only earned their credentials because of affirmative action?

You don't know it, but you suspect it. There are colleges where basically all black admits are below basically all white admits.

 

[Toni]

Here's a pretty clear example.

Suppose an HR director gets two nearly identical resumes, people applying for a job. One black, the other white.

A reasonably savvy HR director will know that the white applicant got the credentials with Affirmative Action working against them. The black applicant had Affirmative Action working for them. All else equal, the white applicant is probably better.

This is completely the opposite of 50 years ago. But it is the modern reality.
Tom

How did someone get credentials ‘with affirmative action working against them?’

Why do you assume that a black applicant only earned their credentials because of affirmative action?

You don't know it, but you suspect it. There are colleges where basically all black admits are below basically all white admits.

I’m certain you have data to back this up?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You said the black applicant had affirmative action working for them.

Are you saying that AA doesn't?
It's the whole point to AA.
Tom

My understanding is that AA gets opportunities for people who might otherwise not get those opportunities. It doesn't help those so admitted to succeed in realising that opportunity.

That's what it's proponents claim. Note, however, that every AA admit is a qualified white or Asian denied.

And you think there isn't pressure to not flunk them out??

Admission to college is a prerequisite to attempt to obtain a degree from that college; But whether an individual graduates once admitted is entirely dependent on their ability as demonstrated when examined at the end of the course.

AA lets them sit the tests. It doesn't make it any easier to pass them than it is for anyone else who's allowed to sit them, so the final qualification is equally informative.

Denigrating that equal qualification on the basis that the applicant was "helped" by AA is both ignorant and racist.

Sure the grading is honest?

My mother's teaching career ended because she dared to flunk the star women's basketball player. (She was considering retiring anyway, but wasn't given a choice after giving a completely honest grade. And, yes, I know it was honest because I was the one actually doing the grading--true/false, I didn't need to know the material to grade. Getting ~25% on a true/false with no guessing penalty is quite an accomplishment.)

 

[laughing dog]

I was hoping that was not what you meant but since it is, I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

I can well understand why you prefer not to have your prejudices interfered with.
Tom

Wow.

There's a post that was a waste of time.
Tom

Truly ironic.

Your observation about a savvy HR director assumes the only way the black applicant achieved the same credentials is bigoted.

 

[Toni]

You said the black applicant had affirmative action working for them.

Are you saying that AA doesn't?
It's the whole point to AA.
Tom

My understanding is that AA gets opportunities for people who might otherwise not get those opportunities. It doesn't help those so admitted to succeed in realising that opportunity.

That's what it's proponents claim. Note, however, that every AA admit is a qualified white or Asian denied.

And you think there isn't pressure to not flunk them out??

Admission to college is a prerequisite to attempt to obtain a degree from that college; But whether an individual graduates once admitted is entirely dependent on their ability as demonstrated when examined at the end of the course.

AA lets them sit the tests. It doesn't make it any easier to pass them than it is for anyone else who's allowed to sit them, so the final qualification is equally informative.

Denigrating that equal qualification on the basis that the applicant was "helped" by AA is both ignorant and racist.

Sure the grading is honest?

My mother's teaching career ended because she dared to flunk the star women's basketball player. (She was considering retiring anyway, but wasn't given a choice after giving a completely honest grade. And, yes, I know it was honest because I was the one actually doing the grading--true/false, I didn't need to know the material to grade. Getting ~25% on a true/false with no guessing penalty is quite an accomplishment.)

Same thing nearly happened to my great uncle. Not all were able pass his math class. He was pressured to change the grades to passing for some players. He dared them to fire him, refused to change the grade ….and later became principal.

All the basketball players were white.

There has been a lot of pressure to pass athletes regardless of their achievements since before either of us was born.

 

[TomC]

Your observation about a savvy HR director assumes the only way the black applicant achieved the same credentials is bigoted.

No it doesn't.
But I can understand why you would prefer to assume that.

It's part of the problem I see with Affirmative Action, here in 2022.
No matter how top shelf a black person is, Affirmative Action will always be a drag on their achievements as long as it exists.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Your observation about a savvy HR director assumes the only way the black applicant achieved the same credentials is bigoted.

No it doesn't.
But I can understand why you would prefer to assume that.

It's part of the problem I see with Affirmative Action, here in 2022.
No matter how top shelf a black person is, Affirmative Action will always be a drag on their achievements as long as it exists.
Tom

You mean: as long as bigots refuse to acknowledge the achievements of black folk.

PS: laughing dog is correct. Your assumption is bigoted.

 

[TomC]

I see no reason to continue to waste my time responding to your posts.

I see.
It might be interesting if you ever did.
Tom

 

[Trausti]

Your observation about a savvy HR director assumes the only way the black applicant achieved the same credentials is bigoted.

No it doesn't.
But I can understand why you would prefer to assume that.

It's part of the problem I see with Affirmative Action, here in 2022.
No matter how top shelf a black person is, Affirmative Action will always be a drag on their achievements as long as it exists.
Tom

You mean: as long as bigots refuse to acknowledge the achievements of black folk.

PS: laughing dog is correct. Your assumption is bigoted.

If you have to lower standards, then of course that would cast doubt on those who benefit from affirmative action.