Afghan "train, advise and assist" 1984 style

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Isn't it sweet the way you care so much for poor Donny Trump.

I got no love for poor, crooked Donny. I am a little bothered by the lack of objectivity lately in this forum, though.

Biden did a great thing.

The people he entrusted with the actual job didn't.

Style over substance.

 

[jonatha]

Yes. First point was that if you have any sort of withdraw plan, you include "pack up the shit in boxes and put it on trucks." They forgot that part. Then there's "the stuff you don't pack up, destroy it."

If you think the Afghan army was ineffective, imagine how well they would have done if we had taken all their materiel away first...

The equipment can be replaced. I'd prioritize people over the equipment.

My point was that, by and large, it wasn't our equipment that the Taliban captured. It belonged to the Afghan armed forces...

 

[Shadowy Man]

You don't release your enemies from prison like Trump did.

I am sure that will also be Biden’s fault somehow.

Recall that some Trump followers think that Obama wasn’t in the Oval Office on 9/11 because he played too much golf while President.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The equipment can be replaced. I'd prioritize people over the equipment.

My point was that, by and large, it wasn't our equipment that the Taliban captured. It belonged to the Afghan armed forces...

Well, that's a very good point that I hadn't thought of before. I also assume that there is quite a bit of equipment that we had intended to return to America but we didn't have the time. But I'm guessing here.

 

[thebeave]

I’ll admit I would have been harder on Trump than Biden if the exact same scene played out. Keeping in mind that it may have been worse under Trump. But who knows.

Part of why is that Trump had no credibility in my eyes. If he came out and tried to say that the chaos was inevitable I wouldn’t have believed him.

Also, I doubt he would have stood in front of the press and taken all those questions that Biden did and provided reasonable, thoughtful answers as to what happened and what could have happened if they had done things differently.

And I’m not taking it lightly. It’s a massive mess and likely could have been handled better by the Biden administration but I also don’t know all the ins and outs of what happened behind the scenes and what advice Biden was getting and in what information about scenarios he ultimately made his decision. But I do think he did not approach the decision thinking about his ratings, his polls, his fortune, or his re-election.

But Biden was largely elected to POTUS because of his many decades of experience in Congress and as VP. So, we have this expectation that he would use that experience and knowledge to make good decisions on military matters, and he would know how to minimize the chaos. That's what makes this whole thing so astounding. With Trump, expectations are low to begin with as he became POTUS with no experience at all in managing a military exercise. As to whether Biden is providing reasonable, thoughtful answers, I guess that's a matter of opinion, but have a look at the full, unedited transcript of his interview with George Stephanopoulos. I don't think it's that great, assuming you can understand what he is even saying at times.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/abc-news-appears-to-have-not-aired-900-words-from-biden-during-interview-on-gma-here-they-are

I was talking about the questions he was getting from multiple journalists in a press conference just the other day, not an interview with George S. He did very well in my opinion. Certainly compared to the insane ramblings of Trump.

I don’t know enough of the inside information and potential scenarios to know that the chaos wasn’t minimized.

Also, it’s ridiculous to think that even with his experience he would be perfect and immune to criticism from his partisan opponents. Half of Americans don’t even think experience is important for a President so it is hypocritical to then claim his experience should have been a critical factor here.

Please provide any evidence that a Trump pullout would have been less chaotic.

Show me where I claimed the Trump pullout would have been less chaotic.

And who is claiming something like this could possibly be perfect and immune from criticism, regardless of whose in charge? No one. You just made that up. I merely said "minimize the chaos". That's the best anyone could hope for.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And who is claiming something like this could possibly be perfect and immune from criticism, regardless of whose in charge? No one. You just made that up. I merely said "minimize the chaos". That's the best anyone could hope for.

Without access to alternative realities I can’t know whether the chaos wasn’t minimized.

This could have been the best possible outcome. I don’t have access to all the scenarios that the military advisers proffered to Biden and what all the possible consequences could have been to each of those options.

I think there’s a lot of post facto armchair quarterbacking going on. Could things have gone better? Possibly. I don’t know. But it doesn’t greatly impact my opinion of Biden as a leader.

 

[ZiprHead]

You don't release your enemies from prison like Trump did.

I am sure that will also be Biden’s fault somehow.

Recall that some Trump followers think that Obama wasn’t in the Oval Office on 9/11 because he played too much golf while President.

Marjorie Taylor Greene actually said that Biden did that.

 

[untermensche]

Biden did a great thing.

The people he entrusted with the actual job didn't.

Style over substance.

That is what you are saying you prefer.

Correct.

You want a nice clean exit from a 20 year useless display of arrogance.

You want useless violence to continue to satisfy your sense of style.

 

[repoman]

If Afghanistan was made into a functioning nation would it have had a leader like Mossadegh who nationalized Iran's oil?

Is this why it did not happen?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Biden did a great thing.

The people he entrusted with the actual job didn't.

Style over substance.

Correct.

You don't care how badly the Biden administration mismanaged the pull-out, all you care about is that Biden has a "D" after his name.

 

[untermensche]

Correct.

You don't care how badly the Biden administration mismanaged the pull-out, all you care about is that Biden has a "D" after his name.

This is about the mismanagement of three administrations to create a situation where a decent pull-out was possible. One of those was a Democrat. A very over-rated president but because he had 8 clean years will look very good compared to criminals like Trump.

Trump was the most incompetent and criminal US president in history.

GOP congressman places blame on Trump admin for crisis in Afghanistan: 'They set this up to fail'

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/22/politics/adam-kinzinger-afghanistan-crisis-trump-administration-cnntv/index.html

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

This is about the mismanagement of three administrations to create a situation where a decent pull-out was possible.

This may shock you, but even after 20 years of mismanaged unnecessary war, it is still possible to do an organized and orderly withdraw of the troops.

I'm glad they're out, but dismayed at how badly the pull out was done. You're glad they're out, and happy that the guy who got them out is of your tribe.

 

[lpetrich]

Afghans struggle with jobs gone, banks shut, prices on the rise | Business and Economy News | Al Jazeera - "Everyday worries about food and rent are adding to the misery of regular Afghans as the economy gets crushed."

‘All Afghans’ should feel safe under Taliban, says security chief | Taliban News | Al Jazeera - "Haqqani tells Al Jazeera that Afghans should not fear the Taliban, but many people remain sceptical that their safety will be assured."

Kabul airlift accelerates as US warns of ‘acute’ security threats | Taliban News | Al Jazeera - "Citing threat of attacks from ISIL, US President Joe Biden says ‘a lot could still go wrong’ at Kabul airport."

According to the article, some 28,000 people have been evacuated from Afghanistan, with the US having evacuated over half of them.


'Northern Alliance' flag hoisted in Panjshir in first resistance against Taliban | World News - Hindustan Times

Afghan soldiers, who had managed to hide themselves from Taliban troops, are reportedly arriving in Panjshir at the call of Ahmad Massoud, son of late Afghan politician Ahmad Shah Massoud.

Amid a complete takeover of Afghanistan by the Taliban, a resistance force, led by Ahmad Massoud, son of late Afghan politician Ahmad Shah Massoud, is reportedly gathering strength in Panjshir Valley. The flag of the ‘Northern Alliance’ or the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan has been hoisted for the time since 2001 in Panjshir valley.

Taliban says hundreds of fighters heading to take Panjshir Valley | Asia News | Al Jazeera - "Anti-Taliban leader Ahmad Massoud calls for talks but says forces ready to fight if Taliban attempts to take stronghold."

 

[Harry Bosch]

This is about the mismanagement of three administrations to create a situation where a decent pull-out was possible.

This may shock you, but even after 20 years of mismanaged unnecessary war, it is still possible to do an organized and orderly withdraw of the troops.

I'm glad they're out, but dismayed at how badly the pull out was done. You're glad they're out, and happy that the guy who got them out is of your tribe.

Do you honestly believe that Untermensche is a fan boy supporting democrat??! But how would you have advised Biden to pull out without causing a sudden collapse of the Afghan army?

 

[ZiprHead]

Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse, His Final SecDef Says
Chris Miller now says talk of a full withdrawal was a “play” to convince a Taliban-led government to keep U.S. counterterrorism forces.

Miller said the president’s public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated with the Taliban, was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.

In a conversation this week with Defense One, Miller revealed that while serving as the top counterterrorism official on the National Security Council in 2019, he commissioned a wargame that determined that the United States could continue to conduct counterterrorism in Afghanistan with just 800 American military personnel on the ground. And by the end of 2020, when he was acting defense secretary, Miller asserted, many Trump administration officials expected that the United States would be able to broker a new shared government in Afghanistan composed primarily of Taliban officials. The new government would then permit U.S. forces to remain in country to support the Afghan military and fight terrorist elements.

That plan never happened, in part because Trump lost his reelection bid in November. And at least one other former senior Trump administration official questioned Miller’s retelling. But in revealing it, Miller challenged recent assertions that Trump is to blame for setting up this week’s chaotic scenes unfolding across Kabul. Miller alleged that despite Trump’s frequent public pledges to end the Afghanistan war and bring home all U.S. troops, many senior national security officials in his administration believed a total withdrawal was not inevitable.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse,

Trump LIED? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

Hold on, wait, this treaty Biden was adhering to in the pull-out, that was supposed to be a bait-and-switch thing? But no one knew to switch? Shucks.

So, Trump fucked up yet ANOTHER transition? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is about the mismanagement of three administrations to create a situation where a decent pull-out was possible.

This may shock you, but even after 20 years of mismanaged unnecessary war, it is still possible to do an organized and orderly withdraw of the troops.

I'm glad they're out, but dismayed at how badly the pull out was done. You're glad they're out, and happy that the guy who got them out is of your tribe.

Do you honestly believe that Untermensche is a fan boy supporting democrat??! But how would you have advised Biden to pull out without causing a sudden collapse of the Afghan army?

Yeah, Jason's comment is hilarious, the idea that untermensche is a Biden fanboy. It simply demonstrates Jason doesn't read any of the posts here.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse, His Final SecDef Says
Chris Miller now says talk of a full withdrawal was a “play” to convince a Taliban-led government to keep U.S. counterterrorism forces.

Miller said the president’s public promise to finish withdrawing U.S. forces by May 1, as negotiated with the Taliban, was actually a “play” that masked the Trump administration’s true intentions: to convince Afghan President Ashraf Ghani to quit or accept a bitter power-sharing agreement with the Taliban, and to keep some U.S. troops in Afghanistan for counterrorism missions.

In a conversation this week with Defense One, Miller revealed that while serving as the top counterterrorism official on the National Security Council in 2019, he commissioned a wargame that determined that the United States could continue to conduct counterterrorism in Afghanistan with just 800 American military personnel on the ground. And by the end of 2020, when he was acting defense secretary, Miller asserted, many Trump administration officials expected that the United States would be able to broker a new shared government in Afghanistan composed primarily of Taliban officials. The new government would then permit U.S. forces to remain in country to support the Afghan military and fight terrorist elements.

That plan never happened, in part because Trump lost his reelection bid in November. And at least one other former senior Trump administration official questioned Miller’s retelling. But in revealing it, Miller challenged recent assertions that Trump is to blame for setting up this week’s chaotic scenes unfolding across Kabul. Miller alleged that despite Trump’s frequent public pledges to end the Afghanistan war and bring home all U.S. troops, many senior national security officials in his administration believed a total withdrawal was not inevitable.

Cut through all the slight of hand bullshit in the art of this Trump deal and what you have is forcing the Afghan govt to share some of the billions in US tax dollars being misappropriated with the Taliban. Everything (everyone) else is fodder to be controlled by the powers that be.
Trump's first instinct: Pay them off.

 

[ZiprHead]

AT WAR WITH THE TRUTH
U.S. officials constantly said they were making progress. They were not, and they knew it, an exclusive Post investigation found.

From 2019.

A confidential trove of government documents obtained by The Washington Post reveals that senior U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war in Afghanistan throughout the 18-year campaign, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence the war had become unwinnable.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Trump's first instinct: Pay them off.

Well, sure, he can't imagine any other motivation.