Afghan "train, advise and assist" 1984 style

[barbos]

Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse,

Trump LIED? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

Hold on, wait, this treaty Biden was adhering to in the pull-out, that was supposed to be a bait-and-switch thing? But no one knew to switch? Shucks.

So, Trump fucked up yet ANOTHER transition? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

Yeah, these idiots forgot to tell Biden it was a ruse. At least it explains why the deal was so bad.

 

[TomC]

Trump’s Pledge to Exit Afghanistan Was a Ruse,

Trump LIED? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

Hold on, wait, this treaty Biden was adhering to in the pull-out, that was supposed to be a bait-and-switch thing? But no one knew to switch? Shucks.

So, Trump fucked up yet ANOTHER transition? Noooooooooooooooo! Say it wasn't so.

Yeah, these idiots forgot to tell Biden it was a ruse. At least it explains why the deal was so bad.

I have no idea how true any of that is. Sounds implausible to me.

But if it's at all true, the absolute minimum requirement for the Transition Team would have been explaining that to the incoming administration. If they failed to do that, it's just another episode of Trump's Treason.
Tom

 

[barbos]

Yeah, these idiots forgot to tell Biden it was a ruse. At least it explains why the deal was so bad.

I have no idea how true any of that is. Sounds implausible to me.

But if it's at all true, the absolute minimum requirement for the Transition Team would have been explaining that to the incoming administration. If they failed to do that, it's just another episode of Trump's Treason.
Tom

Maybe they did tell Biden. But he wanted out so badly that he decided to just go with the deal. Biden should have trashed Trump's agreements and started new talks or better demand from afghan government to kill more talibans so americans can leave Afghanistan in peace.

 

[TomC]

better demand from afghan government to kill more talibans so americans can leave Afghanistan in peace.

You really don't see the irony of this, do you?
Tom

 

[barbos]

better demand from afghan government to kill more talibans so americans can leave Afghanistan in peace.

You really don't see the irony of this, do you?
Tom

No, I don't. Of course it (extermination of taliban people) should have been started earlier.

 

[TomC]

better demand from afghan government to kill more talibans so americans can leave Afghanistan in peace.

You really don't see the irony of this, do you?
Tom

No, I don't. Of course it (extermination of taliban people) should have been started earlier.

Some of us learned, a long time ago, that trying to rescue a country by killing off the people who live there is a losing proposition.
Rather like the Vietnamese, who kicked American butt all those decades ago.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yeah, these idiots forgot to tell Biden it was a ruse. At least it explains why the deal was so bad.

I have no idea how true any of that is. Sounds implausible to me.

But if it's at all true, the absolute minimum requirement for the Transition Team would have been explaining that to the incoming administration. If they failed to do that, it's just another episode of Trump's Treason.
Tom

Maybe they did tell Biden. But he wanted out so badly that he decided to just go with the deal. Biden should have trashed Trump's agreements and started new talks or better demand from afghan government to kill more talibans so americans can leave Afghanistan in peace.

It seems bad form for Biden to blame Trump's deal when Biden had a few outs even under that really shitty deal. Remember the Iran deal, how bad that was? And Trump goes and apparently just gave Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Regardless, this still falls down to the unpredicted shock and awe (little shock and all awe?) incursion of the Taliban. The Afghan military, we might find out where the collapses occurred... ie brass verses foot or visa versa... my money is on a brass down surrender, simply didn't resist. And that provided zero cover for a retreat. That was unpredicted, by like everyone. And that is how we are now in this situation, with the Taliban saying everyone must be out by the 31st.

Do I blame the Afghan military? Not really. Here... we are abandoning you to either Taliban rule or a bloody civil war. Could you please have our backs as we leave?

 

[barbos]

No, I don't. Of course it (extermination of taliban people) should have been started earlier.

Some of us learned, a long time ago, that trying to rescue a country by killing off the people who live there is a losing proposition.
Rather like the Vietnamese, who kicked American butt all those decades ago.
Tom

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

 

[TomC]

That was unpredicted, by like everyone. And that is how we are now in this situation, with the Taliban saying everyone must be out by the 31st.

I'll bet Afghanis in general, and the Taliban in particular, had a darned good idea about how things would play out.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, I don't. Of course it (extermination of taliban people) should have been started earlier.

Some of us learned, a long time ago, that trying to rescue a country by killing off the people who live there is a losing proposition.
Rather like the Vietnamese, who kicked American butt all those decades ago.
Tom

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

...for not giving us Osama bin Laden. Had they done that, W and the Neocons would likely have turned attention to Iraq and spinning the fight to Hussein and left the Taliban alone.

 

[barbos]

Do I blame the Afghan military? Not really. Here... we are abandoning you to either Taliban rule or a bloody civil war. Could you please have our backs as we leave?

As I said, sustained extermination campaign of taliban (initially by US forces, then by afghan army) should have been the real objective.

 

[barbos]

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

...for not giving us Osama bin Laden. Had they done that, W and the Neocons would likely have turned attention to Iraq and spinning the fight to Hussein and left the Taliban alone.

So, what are you saying? That taliban was right not to give US bin laden?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do I blame the Afghan military? Not really. Here... we are abandoning you to either Taliban rule or a bloody civil war. Could you please have our backs as we leave?

As I said, sustained extermination campaign of taliban (initially by US forces, then by afghan army) should have been the real goal.

Well it was... well until Iraq... but before Iraq, we kicked the Talibans ass... until they went in hiding... and even the people we killed were just replaced with other radicals. Apparently radicalism isn't something we can bomb away. This is why Pakistan was a large chunk of both the solution and problem with the Taliban. Pakistan was producing this radicalism and unable to control it. So bombing Afghanistan and killing all the Taliban doesn't solve the problem as the production line was left intact. And we weren't about to bomb a nuclear power... nor was that nuclear power in any position to deal with their radicalism problem.

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

...for not giving us Osama bin Laden. Had they done that, W and the Neocons would likely have turned attention to Iraq and spinning the fight to Hussein and left the Taliban alone.

So, what are you saying? That taliban was right not to give US bin laden?

I wasn't making a judgement. I was stating had the Taliban handed over the people the US wanted, the Taliban, in theory, could have been left alone. George W. Bush didn't just invade Afghanistan, he demanded the release of specific people in al Qaeda first.

The Neocons were already looking at how to pin 9/11 on Hussein, literally on 9/12/2001. The Neocons didn't give a damn about Afghanistan, except for maybe a gas line.

 

[TomC]

No, I don't. Of course it (extermination of taliban people) should have been started earlier.

Some of us learned, a long time ago, that trying to rescue a country by killing off the people who live there is a losing proposition.
Rather like the Vietnamese, who kicked American butt all those decades ago.
Tom

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

The Taliban are Afghanis. Complicated by the fact that the border was stupidly drawn to cut through Pashtun.
Tom

 

[barbos]

Do I blame the Afghan military? Not really. Here... we are abandoning you to either Taliban rule or a bloody civil war. Could you please have our backs as we leave?

As I said, sustained extermination campaign of taliban (initially by US forces, then by afghan army) should have been the real goal.

Well it was... well until Iraq... but before Iraq, we kicked the Talibans ass... until they went in hiding... and even the people we killed were just replaced with other radicals. Apparently radicalism isn't something we can bomb away. This is why Pakistan was a large chunk of both the solution and problem with the Taliban. Pakistan was producing this radicalism and unable to control it. So bombing Afghanistan and killing all the Taliban doesn't solve the problem as the production line was left intact. And we weren't about to bomb a nuclear power... nor was that nuclear power in any position to deal with their radicalism problem.

We don't know that, because taliban was not at any point exterminated to any degree.
It's entirely possible that if taliban was really bombed into dust, then stable secular government could have been established.
Pakistan influence is overrated.

 

[barbos]

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

The Taliban are Afghanis. Complicated by the fact that the border was stupidly drawn to cut through Pashtun.
Tom

Taliban is a small part of afghans.

 

[laughing dog]

Well it was... well until Iraq... but before Iraq, we kicked the Talibans ass... until they went in hiding... and even the people we killed were just replaced with other radicals. Apparently radicalism isn't something we can bomb away. This is why Pakistan was a large chunk of both the solution and problem with the Taliban. Pakistan was producing this radicalism and unable to control it. So bombing Afghanistan and killing all the Taliban doesn't solve the problem as the production line was left intact. And we weren't about to bomb a nuclear power... nor was that nuclear power in any position to deal with their radicalism problem.

We don't know that, because taliban was not at any point exterminated to any degree.
It's entirely possible that if taliban was really bombed into dust, then stable secular government could have been established.
Pakistan influence is overrated.

Can you site a period in Afghanistan's history where it had a stable government, let alone a stable secular government, that was not propped up by an occupying power?

 

[Trausti]

Well it was... well until Iraq... but before Iraq, we kicked the Talibans ass... until they went in hiding... and even the people we killed were just replaced with other radicals. Apparently radicalism isn't something we can bomb away. This is why Pakistan was a large chunk of both the solution and problem with the Taliban. Pakistan was producing this radicalism and unable to control it. So bombing Afghanistan and killing all the Taliban doesn't solve the problem as the production line was left intact. And we weren't about to bomb a nuclear power... nor was that nuclear power in any position to deal with their radicalism problem.

We don't know that, because taliban was not at any point exterminated to any degree.
It's entirely possible that if taliban was really bombed into dust, then stable secular government could have been established.
Pakistan influence is overrated.

Can you site a period in Afghanistan's history where it had a stable government, let alone a stable secular government, that was not propped up by an occupying power?

Right. The mistake of the last 20 years, and the Soviet and British attempts before that, is assuming that Afgans are just like us. They’re not. It’s a highly tribal society with no interest whatsoever in secular or centralized government. Our effort to convert tribesmen into feminists was incredibly misguided and stupid. But some certainly made $$$ off the debacle.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well it was... well until Iraq... but before Iraq, we kicked the Talibans ass... until they went in hiding... and even the people we killed were just replaced with other radicals. Apparently radicalism isn't something we can bomb away. This is why Pakistan was a large chunk of both the solution and problem with the Taliban. Pakistan was producing this radicalism and unable to control it. So bombing Afghanistan and killing all the Taliban doesn't solve the problem as the production line was left intact. And we weren't about to bomb a nuclear power... nor was that nuclear power in any position to deal with their radicalism problem.

We don't know that, because taliban was not at any point exterminated to any degree.
It's entirely possible that if taliban was really bombed into dust, then stable secular government could have been established.

1) Couldn't bomb them into dust. Mountains, terrain, intelligence, physics.
2) I did a paper on Canadian Aboriginal self-governance, way back in the day. One of the largest impeding issues with self-governance is having the infrastructure to run a government. Afghanistan had many fewer building blocks than even the aboriginals in Canada. Literacy, education, in lots of places was bare minimum. Forget about any skeleton for courts and law enforcement and Executive government itself. Afghanistan wasn't remotely ready for a democracy.

Pakistan influence is overrated.

That is where the Taliban was born (where bin Laden hid). Pakistan would oddly enough be where the radicals came from and where the refuges would flee to.

 

[J842P]

I did not say "people" I said "taliban people". The whole damn war was supposed to be about punishing them.

...for not giving us Osama bin Laden. Had they done that, W and the Neocons would likely have turned attention to Iraq and spinning the fight to Hussein and left the Taliban alone.

Yeah, that's not really true though. As early as September 13 the Taliban signaled willingness to do this. They simply required that we provide evidence of his involvement (at that exact time, Al Qaeda was still denying responsibility). Right before the actual invasion, they floated turning him over to third-party state. Indeed, its clear that they just wanted to save face somehow internally. All of this could have been settled diplomatically, or at least, with a small-scale military action without an occupation. We have plenty of Islamist states as allies that would have worked.