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Afghan "train, advise and assist" 1984 style

Swammerdami said:
I did watch the Tucker Carlson segment. His guest, Lara Logan, thinks that victory could have been obtained easily, but that the U.S. "deep state" constrained U.S. power out of fear of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Instead we should have threatened Pakistan (with what?) and forced them to help more. The funniest part of the segment came when Logan said "at its heart every single thing in the world ... is very simple." Carlson interrupted her to applaud this message. (Yes, this is the key message for Trumpists, FauxPotatoes and other Ignoristas — scientists and thinkers make everything complicated: but Uncle Archie or a carnival barker can tell you all you need to know.)

I think that simplifications can be very useful but most real-world issues are NOT simple; complexity is the rule. And I'd want to attend many more Presidential Briefings before I offer an opinion on Afghanistan.

So we have at least three distinct views on Afghanistan.

(1) Barbos' suggestion that we should have killed a lot of Talibans (and necessarily Afghan bystanders and hostages); and if that didn't work kill a lot more. Since Tucker's Lara Logan likes simplifications, I'll simplify her view by assigning her to Barbos' camp.
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Forget bystanders, You were less than incompetent even at bare minimum - killing 100% taliban/ISIS. Now, your aspiration for perfection will cause way more bystanders to be killed.
(3) Trevor Noah's opinion that the U.S.'s efforts in Afghanistan reeked of such confusion and incompetence, that they were doomed. Whether de Gaulle's advice was correct or not in general, the sooner the U.S. stopped its incompetent adventure the better.
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It's funny just how much the so-called liberal media has turned on Biden over this. They are so fucking pro-war and superficial, it's a sick joke. Remember these were the same outlets that were for the Iraq war. The truth is that unless the U.S. was prepared to occupy Afghanistan for the next 50 years with a clear and convincing ideological message passed from generation to generation, there was no winning. Since it's not post-WW2 Germany, there's no moral supremacy argument, only losing the competition to the Taliban. That's why I've always said that our goals in Afghanistan should have been (1) Primary endpoint to get bin Laden and (2) optionally secondarily to do nation-building but a military that pisses on Qurans and corpses isn't how to do that which is why I had said before to build infrastructure and give them science--because critical thinking and education makes people more secular. No one is treating this issue with the kind of complexity it deserves, especially the instant gratification media.
 
Ilhan Omar: As a refugee, I want America to open its arms to those fleeing Afghanistan (Opinion) - CNN
We must keep our promises for the little girl huddled in a refugee camp. That girl was me
Opinion by Ilhan Omar

As I heard the news out of Afghanistan—the families scrambling to get on American planes, or the thousands of requests for assistance pouring into my office—I was taken instantly back to my childhood. I remembered sitting in a refugee camp in Kenya when I was about 10 years old and overhearing my father and grandfather discuss how we were going to get out. "Only in America can you ultimately become an American," my grandfather said. "Everywhere else we will always feel like a guest."

He was right. I was lucky to become an American, not a guest, and ultimately represent my new home of Minnesota in the halls of Congress. But right now there are thousands of Afghans, many of whom risked their lives to help the United States, who are wondering if they will have that same opportunity to make new lives here.

My family escaped civil war in Somalia when I was just eight years old, but life in the refugee camp was scarcely better. Every week, someone I knew died. Relatives of mine—a family of six—lost both parents in the span of two weeks. My aunts, uncles, cousins and siblings all contracted malaria.

It was our family's faith in humanity that ultimately saved my life. After nearly four years of survival in a refugee camp, and over a year of intense vetting by the United Nations and the United States, we finally got a golden ticket to come to America. I wouldn't be here today, raising my children in comfort without the generosity of the Kenyan people, the tireless efforts of UN workers and the welcoming spirit of the American people who gave me and my family a second chance at life.
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IO then talked about how the US accepted some 15 million immigrants from southern and eastern Europe in the early 20th cy. Then how the Ford Admin accepted some 140,000 Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Lao refugees. She claims that the US has some 1.3 million Vietnamese immigrants, though I've found numbers like 1.1 million elsewhere.

She then pointed out that the US has not always been universally welcoming, like passing the Chinese Exclusion Act in the late 19th cy. to keep out further Chinese immigrants, and the drastic reduction of Southern and Eastern European immigrants in 1924. That led to keeping out a lot of Jewish refugees, refugees from Nazi Germany.
President Biden has an opportunity to lead a global effort to confront this reality. The President deserves credit for the evacuating over 70,000 people from Kabul in the past week alone, but there are tens of thousands more who need our help. ...

We should not let paperwork and bureaucracy be a death sentence. Much like we did in the wake of Vietnam, we must allow Afghan citizens to emigrate here immediately using national interest waivers and humanitarian parole—which the administration has the legal authority to do. We must hold the airport in Kabul and lead an international coalition to evacuate every person who is fleeing for their lives in Afghanistan.

... And we must live up to our promises to increase the refugee cap.

That is the choice our country faces right now. We owe it to the Afghan who risked his life to fight alongside the United States. We owe it to the little girl huddled in a refugee camp, wondering if she will have a shot to ultimately become not just a guest, but an American. I know, because that little girl was me.
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Patooka said:
Yeah, we need more of what brought us here in the first place because your ego is bruised.
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Targeted airstrikes are pretty much the opposite of holding territory with a large number of ground troops.

In any case, is US supposed to do nothing? That would be a show of weakness compounding the weakness already shown with the withdrawal debacle. We could ill afford that.
 
lpetrich said:
Ilhan Omar: As a refugee, I want America to open its arms to those fleeing Afghanistan (Opinion) - CNN
We must keep our promises for the little girl huddled in a refugee camp. That girl was me
Opinion by Ilhan Omar
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US really fucked up the Somali situation. There wasn't any real vetting, and so plenty of Islamists came through, many of whom have joined Al Shabab and ISIS since moving to the US.
As to Omar herself, this country would have been far better off if she stayed huddled in that refugee camp instead of being in Congress.
That is not to say all Somalis should be excluded. But we need more Ayan Hirsi Alis and no Ilhan Omars, Dolal Idds and so on.

IO then talked about how the US accepted some 15 million immigrants from southern and eastern Europe in the early 20th cy.
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Very different situation. First you have an immigrant population from a very similar culture. Second, population of US was only 76 million.

Then how the Ford Admin accepted some 140,000 Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Lao refugees. She claims that the US has some 1.3 million Vietnamese immigrants, though I've found numbers like 1.1 million elsewhere.
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While not the same culture, I think Vietnam has a culture compatible with US. Unlike hardcore Islamist Afghanistan where almost everybody supports Sariah Law.

President Biden has an opportunity to lead a global effort to confront this reality. The President deserves credit for the evacuating over 70,000 people from Kabul in the past week alone, but there are tens of thousands more who need our help. ...
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She and AOC want 100,000s of Afghans to come to US. That would help them politically, as Islamism has become allied with the left wing of the Democratic Party.

We must hold the airport in Kabul and lead an international coalition to evacuate every person who is fleeing for their lives in Afghanistan.
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Every person? No limit on numbers? No vetting whatsoever?

... And we must live up to our promises to increase the refugee cap.
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On the contrary. The so-called "refugee" program has in the last 20 years degenerated into a de facto Muslim immigration program. Increasing the cap to let in many more Afghans would make that even worse.

That is the choice our country faces right now. We owe it to the Afghan who risked his life to fight alongside the United States.
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That is very different than just letting in everybody who wants to leave, as she demanded earlier.
 
funinspace said:
By a high risk missile attack which has injured about 100 soldiers.
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Trump always had a poor follow through. We should have given the Iranian militias and IRGC hellfire (figurative and literal) for that attack, but Trump never authorized any response. That was weak.
 
It is - if you tune into talk radio or cable news - absolutely unconscionable that an American President allowed so many US service members to die on his watch. Many are calling for his resignation. Many are calling for his impeachment. It isn't hard to understand the outrage. In just one year, 17 American soldiers lost their lives in Afghanistan. This is a clear failure of leadership, and someone must be held accountable! Who's with me?!

Apparently, no one. Because in 2019, 17 American soldiers were killed in action in Afghanistan. Nary a peep from the people now calling for Biden's head on a pike. During the Trump administration, 44 American service members were killed in action in that country. Anyone remember the outrage on Hannity's show? The recriminations from Republican Congress members? The calls for him to resign or be removed?

Yeah, me neither. Weird how that happens.
 
ZiprHead said:
Trump had no intention of getting our allies out of the country. He destroyed the enhanced visa program for Afghanis.
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Afghanis are virtually worthless. I don't think VISA would touch that currency with a 10 foot pole, Trump or no Trump. Maybe a Macy's store card?

For the millionth time, the demonym is AFGHAN. The currency is AFGHANI.
 
funinspace said:
Not quite invading, but...the Saudi's with their piglet supporting cast have heaped devastation upon Yemen via the air...
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It is Iran (via their puppets the Houthis) that has attacked Yemen. KSA is fighting on behalf of the legitimate government of Yemen.
 
TomC said:
But could you either explain that or give an example of a Muslim country that invaded another country and laid waste? Some examples from the last century?
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A coalition of Arab Muslim countries invaded the nascent state of Israel in 1948. Some of them tried invading in 1967 unsuccessfully and two of them (Egypt and Syria) tried again in 1973 and were more successful until they were finally beaten back.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
and now we have Islamist terrorists with nuclear weapons.
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I think we have first strike capability re Pakistan. And should Pakistan fall to Taliban or similar (which still could happen, and might be more likely with Taliban in power next door) it would be wise to avail ourselves of that option.
 
funinspace said:
Wait...fuck the what...how did this thread go down a sex hole...
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Certain posters here, when they run out of arguments, tend to make non-sequitur comments about my sex life. It started with Frkki, and even though he is long gone, others have taken up that obsessive mantle.
 
atrib said:
I disagree. Many of these people have spent years working alongside our troops, often putting their lives and the lives of their families in danger from Taliban reprisals. And they have done this because they identify with our cultural and social values, especially with regard to personal freedoms.
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For those for whom this applies - great! I am not saying let no Afghans in. I am saying, be cognizant of the fact that vast majority of Afghans are Islamists and vet accordingly. I.e. more strictly then we did with Somalis, so that now areas with heavy Somali populations are also hotbeds for Islamic terrorist recruitment.

I also think it is naïve to think all - or even most - of these workers did so out of any ideological support for US. I would say most did it for money.

I think they have more than met any reasonable standard one may conceptualize for vetting them. Here in the US we don't judge people for their thoughts and beliefs, we judge them by their actions. The US is not in any danger of being overrun by fundamentalist Muslims; our constitution is strong and will withstand whatever challenges a tiny minority of radicalized immigrants might come up with.
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US may be not in any danger yet, but Muslim population is rapidly and exponentially growing due to both immigration and high birth rates. And Afghans have very high birth rates, just like the Somalis. It is not rare to find Somali families with more than 10 kids in Minnesota!

As history shows, the most immediate threat to our democracy comes from homegrown radicalized Christian nationalists, who not so long ago tried to violently overthrow our democratically elected government by invading Congress. It is important that we keep our priorities straight and not give in to baseless xenophobic rhetoric.
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BS. The January 6th riot is the most overblown thing in US politics today. It pales in comparison with the months long violent rioting and occupations in many US cities last year.

Impressive! You are able to predict the growth rate of Muslim immigrants who become radicalized jihadi's simply by looking at unsourced, short-term growth rate numbers for Muslims in Europe, and extrapolate this data to multiple future generations of their descendants who are raised in a western culture.
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These Islamists do not really raise their kids in a "western culture". They basically live in parallel societies and do not interact much with the kafirs.

You should nominate yourself for the Noble Prize. Have you done that yet?
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Not familiar with that one.

Hiring sex workers is illegal in most states, a felony or a misdemeanor depending on circumstances.
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The impetus for making sex work illegal is a philosophy shared with Islamism - desire to control what other people do with their lives and their bodies.
That is contrary to the American ideal of personal liberty. So I am embodying what America is about better than the Christian, Islamist and Feminist illiberals and authoritarians.

Believing in the Muslim god is NOT a crime; in fact, it is a constitutionally protected right. Can you tell the difference?
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Believing in a god is one thing. Believing that Shariah Law should be the law of the land is quite another. Can you tell the difference?

You took an oath to abide by the laws of this land when you because a naturalized citizen, assuming you are a citizen. And here you are, breaking the law and describing your exploits on the internet.
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It is no different than gay people having sex pre-Lawrence. Laws like that are really un-American!

I will take a law abiding Muslim who has fought for democracy in Afghanistan alongside US troops over a whiney, criminal non-Muslim any day of the week.
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Spoken like a good dhimmi! So I guess having consensual sex is bad because some busybody politicians say it's bad but supporting a theocracy is great because to your knowledge they never hired adult female hookers (although they may have slept with underage "dancing boys", which I guess is ok to you because we can't criticize Muslims?)
 
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