Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Derec]

I thought it was the Republicans that thought the magic money tree existed.

You thought wrong.
The Economist Who Believes the Government Should Print More Money

Stephanie Kelton, a senior economic adviser to Bernie Sanders and a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University, is popular in a way that economists, almost definitionally, are not. Filmmakers trail her with cameras; she goes on international speaking tours and once sold out a basketball arena in Italy. Kelton is the foremost evangelist of a fringe economic movement called Modern Monetary Theory, which, in part, argues that the government should pay for programs requiring big spending, such as the Green New Deal, by simply printing more money.

 

[Derec]

Ah more conservative whining about the "socialism" boogeyman. Yawn.

We have a relatively large number of Democratic lawmakers, both federal and state, identify as socialists and many of them have joined Demcratic Socialists of America. Including the subject of this thread. It is a real issue of concern and perfectly on topic here.

To be fair, imaginary entities do need a lot of propping up.

What is "imaginary" about socialists?

 

[lpetrich]

Define "socialism".

Asked and answered. You asked me the same question in post #5794 and I answered you in post #5798.

A dictionary definition. Two can play this game. From socialism - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

1. Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.
   1. A system of social and economic equality in which there is no private property.
   2. A system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state.
2. (Marxism-Leninism) The intermediate phase of social development between capitalism and communism in Marxist theory in which the state has control of the means of production.
3. Any of a group of later political philosophies such democratic socialism and social democracy which do not envisage the need for full state ownership of the means of production nor transition to full communism, and which are typically based on principles of community decision making, social equality and the avoidance of economic and social exclusion, with economic policy giving first preference to community goals over individual ones.
4. (chiefly Western, often derogatory, colloquial) Any left-wing ideology, government regulations, or policies promoting a welfare state, nationalisation, etc.

Derec's definition of socialism appears to be the last one, and not the definition that he earlier quoted.

I also note that to most self-described socialists, socialism != "Magic Money Tree"

Yeah, that belief is strong with them.

You didn't recognize the != operator?

From the definition you cited, and from all but the last of the definitions the Wiktionary mentioned, belief in a "Magic Money Tree" is not a part of socialism.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in groves of birch trees.

Birch trees?

John Birch trees.

 

[Derec]

Then about social media and some of its founders, and how she said to a very rich person that he will either have to do something about income and equality or else he will have to armorplate his Tesla.

Sounds like a threat.

Then on Elon Musk

Somebody who did far more for the climate than AOC.

claiming such things as how President Biden wants to import voters, a version of the Great Replacement Theory.

Given the influx of millions of mass migrants into both US and Europe, that is not a conspiracy theory.

No, I do not regret it at all. And our community doesn't regret it at all too. We have proven and shown over and over and over again that everything that we said at that time was right.

She doesn't want jobs created by businesses. She wants jobs created by the federal government, like her cockamamie Climate Paramilitaries.
That's why a "federal job guarantee" is part of her GND.

 

[Derec]

Then about the TikTok ban, something she voted against, despite it passing the House 360-58.

TikTok is about her intellectual speed. I would not be surprised if she had a big presence on that platform.

Yes, the American-Israel Political Action Committee, which is not, it is an extreme right-wing organization. They endorse insurrectionist members of Congress that sought to overturn the presidential election. This is not just about general friendly pro- Israel policy.

They endorse people who support Israel and oppose people who are hostile to Israel.
She should ask herself why is she allying herself with the likes of Rashida Tlaib who spoke at a conference sponsored by a terrorist organization (PFLP).

This is about backing a right-wing Israeli coalition led by Benjamin Netanyahu and a political operation to punish anyone who stands up to this right-wing Israeli government and stands up for, in the most basic sense, Palestinian human rights.

A more left-wing prime minister was in power in 2000. He was negotiating with Yasser Arafat and made a very generous offer. Arafat not only rejected it, he also pretty much started the 2nd Intifada which led to deaths of many people on both sides and set up the war we have now. This failure of talks (due to Arafat's obstinance) also discredited Labour, something from which it has not recovered electorally.

They have a big money network, just like big oil does, just like the NRA does, and they operate very similarly to the NRA. The races that we have seen these have been ones where they've mobilized heavily on.

Anti-Israel candidates also get a lot of money from outside the district. Jamaal Bowman is getting campaign donations by pro-government Turkish groups for example.

 

[lpetrich]

No, because MCC seemed to be running on imitating AOC's ethnic and gender identity. AOC didn't seem nearly as bothered by Badrun Khan, as far as I could tell. BK was also running, but she didn't have that kind of support.

Imitating? MCC is not pretending to be a Latina just to "imitate" AOC. I guess AOC is just bothered that there are Latinas who would dare run against her.

It seemed to AOC that MCC was running on her ethnic identity -- she was propped up by Wall Streeters who were willing to spend some millions of dollars on her campaign. AOC had a similar experience in her first run, in 2018. Joe Crowley had skipped a debate with her, and instead had sent Councilmember Annabel Palma to debate AOC in his place.

Michael Corley on X: "I'm speechless ..." / X

I'm speechless ...

@JoeCrowleyNY doesn't attend debate with @Ocasio2018 and sends @NYCCouncil member @PalmaAnnabel in his place

Why would she agree to do this?

This is the ugly side of the Democrats on full display, pitting one woman of Latin descent against another #NY14

then
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on X: "In a bizarre twist, ..." / X

In a bizarre twist, Rep. Crowley sent a woman with slight resemblance to me as his official surrogate to last night’s debate.

@repjoecrowley’s surrogate said he is in full support of Trump’s embassy change in Israel last month (where 60 people died).

The community was in shock.

Crowley sends "worst NYC lawmaker" to debate in his place - City & State New York - "Rep. Joe Crowley sent Annabel Palma, ranked as one of New York City's worst councilmembers in 2016 by City & State, to debate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in his place."

 

[lpetrich]

I'm not a xenophobe, and I am fluent in a second language: autotranslator.

It's not xenophobia to want US politicians to use English rather than other countries' languages.

I don't treat my language limitations as some kind of virtue.

The sign:
Tu inversión es mi desplazamiento.
Google, Bing, from Spanish:
Your investment is my displacement.

Yeah, I figured it out without Google. It's a stupid sentiment. She is not entitled to somebody else's property. She reminds me of Comrade Kaprugina from Dr. Zhivago.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[Derec]

A dictionary definition. Two can play this game. From socialism - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

Not really a dictionary definition, as dictionaries also cover how people misuse words.

Derec's definition of socialism appears to be the last one, and not the definition that he earlier quoted.

Wrong. It is 1 and 2. Which is also what DSA is using.
Definition 3 is the one that AOC seems to be subscribing to, but that is a meaningless definition, as it conflates disparate things like actual socialism and social democracy.

You didn't recognize the != operator?

Indeed I missed it.

From the definition you cited, and from all but the last of the definitions the Wiktionary mentioned, belief in a "Magic Money Tree" is not a part of socialism.

Indeed not, but we have agreed that many self-described socialists in the US have no idea what the word actually means. To AOC, it does seem to conflate with "tax the rich", "spend trillions on stuff I like" and "money printer go brrr".

John Birch trees.

Ah. Very punny.

 

[Derec]

I don't treat my language limitations as some kind of virtue.

I do not, but why does she? What would be wrong with having that sign in English?

Yeah, I figured it out without Google. It's a stupid sentiment. She is not entitled to somebody else's property. She reminds me of Comrade Kaprugina from Dr. Zhivago.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

In Dr. Zhivago, the Bolsheviks had expropriated the title character's house and moved 13 families into it.

Comrade Kaprugina was one of them.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

We have a relatively large number of Democratic lawmakers, both federal and state, identify as socialists and many of them have joined Demcratic Socialists of America. Including the subject of this thread. It is a real issue of concern and perfectly on topic here.

Call me when they attempt to overthrow a democratically elected government and create a theocratic dictatorship.

 

[Person19960]

Call me when they attempt to overthrow a democratically elected government and create a theocratic dictatorship.

The call is coming from inside the house.

Dare I say, the call is coming from inside the White House.

 

[ZiprHead]

I thought it was the Republicans that thought the magic money tree existed.

You thought wrong.
The Economist Who Believes the Government Should Print More Money

Stephanie Kelton, a senior economic adviser to Bernie Sanders and a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University, is popular in a way that economists, almost definitionally, are not. Filmmakers trail her with cameras; she goes on international speaking tours and once sold out a basketball arena in Italy. Kelton is the foremost evangelist of a fringe economic movement called Modern Monetary Theory, which, in part, argues that the government should pay for programs requiring big spending, such as the Green New Deal, by simply printing more money.

Wow. One whole person.



Politifact rates this as mostly true.

 

[Elixir]

Politifact rates this as mostly true.

It’s a stark, numerical FACT fer crissakes.
Politifact should just tell people to go look it up!

 

[GenesisNemesis]

We have a relatively large number of Democratic lawmakers, both federal and state, identify as socialists and many of them have joined Demcratic Socialists of America. Including the subject of this thread. It is a real issue of concern and perfectly on topic here.

Call me when they attempt to overthrow a democratically elected government and create a theocratic dictatorship.

Oh yeah, also call me when democratically socialist nations collapse economically. Oh wait, they haven't.

 

[Derec]

Oh yeah, also call me when democratically socialist nations collapse economically. Oh wait, they haven't.

Which "democratically socialist nations" do you have in mind?
For example, Hugo Chavez was elected democratically as a socialist. Venezuela collapsed economically.

 

[Derec]

Wow. One whole person.

She is influential on the left fringe of the Democratic Party, and relevant to this thread, with AOC.

[misleading tweet]
Politifact rates this as mostly true.

It is also highly misleading. I will give credit to Clinton for running a surplus, but he was a "Third Way" Democrat, and this is decidedly pase in the age of AOC and Bernie. However, G.W. Bush had lower deficits than Obama. He only "halved" the deficit because the deficit in his first year (2009) was so big. Trump also had relatively low deficits until 2020, the year of the unprecedented Pandemic. Any president would have had yuge deficit in that year - somebody like Biden probably even more since he would have likely spent more generously. Biden deficits are still pretty high have increased in 2023. Note also that he wanted to spend an extra $3.5T over 10 years starting in 2021, which would have added $350G per year to the deficit. Only Manchin and Sinema saved us from that.

But this thread is not about presidents. It is about AOC. She thinks her entire GND (estimated at $60-100T) can be funded through deficit spending.
Ocasio-Cortez boosts progressive theory that deficits aren’t so scary

 

[ZiprHead]

Wow. One whole person.

She is influential on the left fringe of the Democratic Party, and relevant to this thread, with AOC.

[misleading tweet]
Politifact rates this as mostly true.

It is also highly misleading. I will give credit to Clinton for running a surplus, but he was a "Third Way" Democrat, and this is decidedly pase in the age of AOC and Bernie. However, G.W. Bush had lower deficits than Obama. He only "halved" the deficit because the deficit in his first year (2009) was so big. Trump also had relatively low deficits until 2020, the year of the unprecedented Pandemic. Any president would have had yuge deficit in that year - somebody like Biden probably even more since he would have likely spent more generously. Biden deficits are still pretty high have increased in 2023. Note also that he wanted to spend an extra $3.5T over 10 years starting in 2021, which would have added $350G per year to the deficit. Only Manchin and Sinema saved us from that.

But this thread is not about presidents. It is about AOC. She thinks her entire GND (estimated at $60-100T) can be funded through deficit spending.
Ocasio-Cortez boosts progressive theory that deficits aren’t so scary

Okay, so why can it not be funded through deficit spending? You make it seem like it's impossible. Not to mention the estimate you keep citing is entirely made up. We've been over this before.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Explains What Democratic Socialism Means - Business Insider

"We're talking about single-payer health care that has already been successful in many different models, from Finland to Canada to the UK,” she said.

Both Canada and UK have major problems with their healthcare systems. And many other countries with strong social systems such as Germany or France do not have a "single payer". Note, Medicare is not a "single payer" system, and therefore "Medicare4All" would not be one either. "Universal Healthcare" ≠ "Single Payer".

It's single payer in that the government is the one paying.

And it only "works" because the government forces providers to accept underpayment. An increasing number of providers are saying "no" and refusing to see Medicare patients at all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But at least I have the good economic sense to reject socialism and realize that the Magic Money Tree does not exist.

I thought it was the Republicans that thought the magic money tree existed.

Huh? That's always been a leftist thing.

The Republicans believe that tax cuts are sufficiently economy-boosting to pay for themselves.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Politifact rates this as mostly true.

It’s a stark, numerical FACT fer crissakes.
Politifact should just tell people to go look it up!

The problem is a matter of how you define the deficit.

Clinton only brought it to zero if you count the excess of social security and medicare. We were still running a deficit, only it was only coming from money that would in time be needed by retirees.