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"Almost all terrorists are Muslim" derail split from "Rants"

Apparently you don't understand the word "aim".

In times past we haven't had the ability to single out the targets of interest from the civilians around them. That doesn't mean we were aiming at civilians, it means we hit a lot of civilians in addition to the targets we were after.

There were explicit directives to target civilians:

The  Area Bombing Directive was a directive from the wartime British Government's Air Ministry to the Royal Air Force which ordered RAF bombers to attack the German industrial workforce and the morale of the German populace through bombing German cities and their civilian inhabitants.

"Industrial workforce" -- the people making the guns.
 
Incorrect and irrelevant. For one thing, Taliban militants, by virtue of their not actually belonging to a standing military organization, ARE civilians by any coherent definition. Moreover, "deliberately targeting civilians" is not the defining trait of terrorism. Threat of violence and/or deadly force to extort political change IS. In that regard, at least, there is a tremendous difference between a terrorist and a militant or an insurgent. Terrorism is a tactic of disruptive theatrics; a militant insurgent generally has more concrete military and political goals that cannot be achieved with terrorism alone.

No. Civilians do not shoot at the enemy. The lack of a standing military organization makes them insurgents, not civilians.

If rockets are fired from a school as Hamas does, that school becomes a legitimate target.
Incorrect. The people who launched the rocket become legitimate targets. The school, its students, its faculty and owners, do not. Guilt by association remains a logical fallacy, especially for civilized nations that (in theory) respect the right of due process.

You're distorting things here.

The shooters are a valid target. The fact that they are shooting from a school doesn't change this.

(And in practice the school is a valid target anyway because it's a weapons storage location. Basically 100% of them are.)

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It is pure ignorance to say that terrorism only exists when civilians are deliberately targeted.

Terrorism can exist when a military is attacked. If it is a terrorist attack.

The target has nothing to do with whether or not something is terrorism.

If an attack has no moral justification then it is a terrorist attack.

The invasion of Vietnam was a terrorist attack. The invasions of Grenada and Panama were terrorist attacks. The US funded and directed attacks of Nicaragua were terrorist attacks. The invasion of Iraq was a terrorist attack.

The US has engaged in far more terrorism than any Muslim group. They are rank amateurs compared to the US.

You're not free to redefine words to allow you to call names.
 
So not having guidance systems makes it right to aim your rockets indiscriminately?
No. Does having guidance systems make the expected massive collateral civilian damage right?

I say again!! If rockets are fired from the basement or the roof of a hospital it makes it a legitimate target for reprisal. After adequate warnings for civilians to get the fuck out which in reality they don't have to do, but they do anyway to limit civilian casualties they have every right to blow it up to smithereens. Of course, the terrorists want as many civilian casualties including the more children the better as possible. You see, the cowardly terrorists are experts at using civilians as human shields.
 
No. Civilians do not shoot at the enemy. The lack of a standing military organization makes them insurgents, not civilians.

If rockets are fired from a school as Hamas does, that school becomes a legitimate target.
Incorrect. The people who launched the rocket become legitimate targets. The school, its students, its faculty and owners, do not. Guilt by association remains a logical fallacy, especially for civilized nations that (in theory) respect the right of due process.

You're distorting things here.

The shooters are a valid target. The fact that they are shooting from a school doesn't change this.

(And in practice the school is a valid target anyway because it's a weapons storage location. Basically 100% of them are.)

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It is pure ignorance to say that terrorism only exists when civilians are deliberately targeted.

Terrorism can exist when a military is attacked. If it is a terrorist attack.

The target has nothing to do with whether or not something is terrorism.

If an attack has no moral justification then it is a terrorist attack.

The invasion of Vietnam was a terrorist attack. The invasions of Grenada and Panama were terrorist attacks. The US funded and directed attacks of Nicaragua were terrorist attacks. The invasion of Iraq was a terrorist attack.

The US has engaged in far more terrorism than any Muslim group. They are rank amateurs compared to the US.

You're not free to redefine words to allow you to call names.

The Nazi's were hung for their unprovoked attacks, not for the concentration camps.

An unprovoked purposeful attack of another nation is an act of terrorism.

At least that is what the US said after WWII.
 
"Industrial workforce" -- the people making the guns.
So a Muslim extremist who were to blow himself up at a Colt factory in the USA isn't a terrorist but taking part in a military operation as he's targeting the "people making the guns" for the US military? Even if the people he kills are receptionists, accountants, security guards, etc. ?

How far does this logic go? Can you target US citizens as a suicide bomber and rightfully claim to not be a terrorist because they're military targets who pay taxes to pay for the US military activities in the Middle East?

This is the kind bullshit logic that Sinn Féin used to justified blowing up pubs in Northern Ireland because they were places where soldiers socialised and anyone else who was killed was just collateral damage.
 
That is how the government appears to use the term, but it is not correct.

Oh so. How is that not correct?
An act is terrorism if, at the very least, it provokes a state of terror in the target populace or individuals. Hence terror-ism.

Whether an act is morally justifiable or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is an act of terrorism. Plenty of acts of violence are not morally justifiable, but that doesn't make them terrorism.
 
An act is terrorism if, at the very least, it provokes a state of terror in the target populace or individuals. Hence terror-ism.

Whether an act is morally justifiable or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is an act of terrorism. Plenty of acts of violence are not morally justifiable, but that doesn't make them terrorism.

"Provoking terror" is a necessary, but not a sufficient, ingredient. I have always understood 'terrorism' to be
- a violent act
- carried out on random members of the population or sometimes less loosely defined targets
- by a person or persons (non-State actors) with a certain political or ideological agenda
- in the hope/belief that the act will help effect the actor's political/ideological agenda

It is my understanding that States are generally excluded from being 'terrorists'. Whether that definition is fair or not does not mean that States can't terrorise their own people, or that 'acts of war' are morally better or worse than acts of terrorism.

One thing that I find curious is that there seems to be a new requirement -- that the terrorists be 'organised'. I don't know why this new requirement has suddenly become popular. Lone wolves have fanatical ideologies, too.
 
It is pure ignorance to say that terrorism only exists when civilians are deliberately targeted.

Terrorism can exist when a military is attacked. If it is a terrorist attack.

The target has nothing to do with whether or not something is terrorism.

What counts as terrorism is defined and regulated by the Geneva Convention. Any attempt to kill military targets is never terrorism. This is regardless of how terrified they are. Any civilian who attempts to kill military personnel stop being a civilian at that moment. And are legitimate targets in war. Hunting down such targets (Al Qaeda for example) is not terrorism (according to the Geneva Convention). Where it gets iffy (and a legal grey area) is proving that the civilian-looking dude really isn't.

During war, if you manage to kill a soldier and survive the war you're legally in the clear. Nobody can try you for that.

https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/terrorism-faq-050504.htm


If an attack has no moral justification then it is a terrorist attack.

Morals has nothing to do with what counts as terrorism. It's only down to legalese and legal hair-splitting. I don't care that the term is badly abused nowadays (also by you).

The invasion of Vietnam was a terrorist attack. The invasions of Grenada and Panama were terrorist attacks. The US funded and directed attacks of Nicaragua were terrorist attacks. The invasion of Iraq was a terrorist attack.

None of this is true. In Vietnam USA provided aid to the South Vietnamese government. The fact that that government was a cleptocracy and an abonination doesn't enter into it. Still not terrorism. Panama and Granada was declared war between sovereign states. Also not terrorism. Invasion of Iraq was also a declared war between sovereign states. That's all according to the rules of the Geneva Convention. Countries are allowed to do that.

The US has engaged in far more terrorism than any Muslim group. They are rank amateurs compared to the US.

According to international law a government has a "monopoly on violence". They're allowed to threaten and kill their own population. Governments can be tried anyway if they break what is considered "basic human rights". This is a hell of a lot more complicated. Because not every country is a member of the "International Criminal Court". It happens that countries leave this agreement and it's leaders are tried anyway (because they lose a war).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

If people would learn to understand more about legal terminology and use the words correctly I think the world would be a better place.
 
No. Does having guidance systems make the expected massive collateral civilian damage right?

I say again!! If rockets are fired from the basement or the roof of a hospital it makes it a legitimate target for reprisal. After adequate warnings for civilians to get the fuck out which in reality they don't have to do, but they do anyway to limit civilian casualties they have every right to blow it up to smithereens. Of course, the terrorists want as many civilian casualties including the more children the better as possible. You see, the cowardly terrorists are experts at using civilians as human shields.
A simple yes would have sufficed. Apparently the nationality of the dead or injured civilians matters in your universe. Your approval of the disproportionate collateral damage (in turns of property and personal damage as well as terror) by the IDF thoroughly transforms your arguments into nothing more than morally repugnant special pleadings.
 
The reason the US doesn't aim at civilians is because, as of the last ten or twenty years, they have the technology, money, and strategy that make such an approach possible.

Only a few decades ago, they didn't have the technology in sufficient quantity, and at that time nobody inside the armed forces or government suggested that there was any moral issue with collateral damage, that was not outweighed by the military objectives being pursued.

It's a pure luxury to avoid civilian casualties; the US was a functioning democracy when they nuked two cities in Japan to send a message to Russia; and when they and the UK (also a democracy) embarked on a deliberate campaign of fire-bombing German and Japanese cities for the express purpose of destroying worker's homes.

The moral niceties are a convenient opportunity for propaganda, when you have the power and the wealth to excercise them; but don't kid yourself that they are important to the military beyond their propaganda value. If a military objective requires it, the USAF have no more qualms than any other armed force in history about a few dead women and children.

Minimising civilian casualties is a 'nice to have', not a primary goal.

Apparently you don't understand the word "aim".

In times past we haven't had the ability to single out the targets of interest from the civilians around them. That doesn't mean we were aiming at civilians, it means we hit a lot of civilians in addition to the targets we were after.

I will not fault a low-tech army for the use of inaccurate weapons. I will fault them when the aim point is not a valid target.

During WWII, the RAF and later the USAAF had a clear and well understood policy of targeting German civilians. This policy was claimed by its proponents to be necessary due to the difficulty of targeting stuff as small as individual factories or military facilities from high altitude (particularly at night), given the technology available.

The reason the US doesn't currently aim at civilians is because, as of the last ten or twenty years, they have the technology, money, and strategy that make such an approach possible.

Only a few decades ago, they didn't have the technology in sufficient quantity, and at that time nobody inside the armed forces or government suggested that there was any moral issue with collateral damage, that was not outweighed by the military objectives being pursued.

It's a pure luxury to avoid civilian casualties; the US was a functioning democracy when they nuked two cities in Japan to send a message to Russia; and when they and the UK (also a democracy) embarked on a deliberate campaign of fire-bombing German and Japanese cities for the express purpose of destroying worker's homes.

The moral niceties are a convenient opportunity for propaganda, when you have the power and the wealth to excercise them; but don't kid yourself that they are important to the military beyond their propaganda value. If a military objective requires it, the USAF have no more qualms than any other armed force in history about a few dead women and children.

Minimising civilian casualties is a 'nice to have', not a primary goal; The US avoids bombing civilians today for political reasons, not moral ones; and those political reasons were sidelined in favour of military strategy until the technology existed to make it possible to engage in precision attacks.

All low-tech armies - including your country's - have targeted civilians. In war, there are no 'good guys'. There are people who are aiming at you, and people who are aiming at someone else - but the people who are aiming at someone else are not 'good', they are just 'on your side'.

Indeed this desperate need for a 'good vs evil' narrative is a large part of the reason we still have war - until people like you wake up to the reality that there is no such thing as absolute good or absolute evil, and that every single human being who has ever lived could reasonably be described as both, then from some perspective, there will always be needless bloodshed.

Even Adolf Hitler was kind and generous to his friends, and loved his dogs. Even Gandhi was racist against Africans, and referred to them as 'Kaffirs' (Incidentally, Gandhi was something of an admirer of Hitler). The world is not a simple place, and by pretending that it is, we get very sub-optimal attitudes and outcomes. Even the bad guys are good; and all the good guys are, and always have been, capable of horror beyond compare in support of 'doing the right thing'.
 
There were explicit directives to target civilians:

The  Area Bombing Directive was a directive from the wartime British Government's Air Ministry to the Royal Air Force which ordered RAF bombers to attack the German industrial workforce and the morale of the German populace through bombing German cities and their civilian inhabitants.

"Industrial workforce" -- the people making the guns.

and "morale of the German populace" -- everyone else in Germany. :rolleyesa:
 
Oh so. How is that not correct?
An act is terrorism if, at the very least, it provokes a state of terror in the target populace or individuals. Hence terror-ism.

Whether an act is morally justifiable or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is an act of terrorism. Plenty of acts of violence are not morally justifiable, but that doesn't make them terrorism.

...and indeed acts of terrorism are entirely morally justifiable. If they were not morally justifiable at least to the perpetrators, then they wouldn't occur; and in many cases terrorism is widely seen as morally justified - for example terrorist acts by the resistance in occupied nations during WWII.

The word 'terrorist' has become a pure insult, and no longer carries a useful meaning beyond 'person I don't like'. It is probably long past time to stop using it altogether; certainly, whenever I see or hear the word 'terrorist' or 'terrorism', I assume that the person using the word is attempting to use an appeal to emotion to bypass making a reasoned argument.
 
What counts as terrorism is defined and regulated by the Geneva Convention.

Wrong. The Conventions didn't define terrorism. They defined the so-called rules of war.

When a nation invades another nation, for no valid reason, this is not war. It is terrorism, a crime.

And where this was defined was in the Nuremberg principles, not the Geneva Conventions.

(a) Crimes against peace:

(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;

(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles

Morals has nothing to do with what counts as terrorism. It's only down to legalese and legal hair-splitting. I don't care that the term is badly abused nowadays (also by you).

Morality has EVERYTHING to do with it. All human actions can be examined morally. There will be grey areas, but deliberately invading a nation that poses no real threat is not one of them.

The invasion of Vietnam was a terrorist attack. The invasions of Grenada and Panama were terrorist attacks. The US funded and directed attacks of Nicaragua were terrorist attacks. The invasion of Iraq was a terrorist attack.

None of this is true. In Vietnam USA provided aid to the South Vietnamese government.

The South Vietnamese government was a brutal government that remained in power only because it was propped up by the US.

The people of South Vietnam were attempting to overthrow this brutal illegitimate government.

None of this posed any threat to the US and the US was not attacked.

But the US invaded South Vietnam beginning in 1962 and by about 1967 it had destroyed the place killing who knows how many. It was a war crime. It was the same crime we hung Nazi's for after WWII.

Panama and Granada was declared war between sovereign states.

Neither of those nations declared war on the US. Neither posed any threat to the US.

Even if you declare a war before you launch a war of aggression it is still a war of aggression.

Invasion of Iraq was also a declared war between sovereign states.

See above.

If people would learn to understand more about legal terminology and use the words correctly I think the world would be a better place.

I think being able to recognize rank aggression is far more important.
 
Some case could be made for the idea that almost all American presidents are terrorists. Johnson and Nixon had their dirty little wars in south east Asia, Reagan sponsored extermination wars in Central America. The Bushes and now Obama think nothing of killing non Americans whether or not they are guilty of anything. We have been ruled by narcissists for far too long...so long in fact that these clowns feel free to tell you what they are doing.
 
No. Civilians do not shoot at the enemy.
Of course they do. They're just not SUPPOSED to, because doing so is really really dangerous for civilians at large (as the Palestinians find out every day).

You're distorting things here.

The shooters are a valid target. The fact that they are shooting from a school doesn't change this.
Yes. The SHOOTERS are a valid target. The school is not, unless the shooters are confirmed as being present within the school.

And in practice the school is a valid target anyway because it's a weapons storage location.
No, a school is a school. If you have actionable intelligence that weapons are being stored there then the weapons indeed can be targeted for demolition using the most efficient means at your disposal.

Of course, blowing up an entire building just because someone there is believed to have had weapons there at some point is not and will never be justifiable, as much as various governments like to pretend it is. Nor the entire neighborhood, nor the entire country, nor the entire political party or ethnic group that runs that country. A military target has intrinstic military value.

Basically 100% of them are.
I don't know what kind of school YOU went to, but mine have never been weapons storage locations.
 
Oh so. How is that not correct?
An act is terrorism if, at the very least, it provokes a state of terror in the target populace or individuals. Hence terror-ism.

Whether an act is morally justifiable or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is an act of terrorism. Plenty of acts of violence are not morally justifiable, but that doesn't make them terrorism.

Aiming rockets indiscriminately at any target as hamas does from Gaza is terrorism no matter how it's coloured.
 
An act is terrorism if, at the very least, it provokes a state of terror in the target populace or individuals. Hence terror-ism.

Whether an act is morally justifiable or not has nothing to do with whether or not it is an act of terrorism. Plenty of acts of violence are not morally justifiable, but that doesn't make them terrorism.

Aiming rockets indiscriminately at any target as hamas does from Gaza is terrorism no matter how it's coloured.

How about aiming thermonuclear warheads at major populated areas, as the U.S. and Russia do?
 
I say again!! If rockets are fired from the basement or the roof of a hospital it makes it a legitimate target for reprisal. After adequate warnings for civilians to get the fuck out which in reality they don't have to do, but they do anyway to limit civilian casualties they have every right to blow it up to smithereens. Of course, the terrorists want as many civilian casualties including the more children the better as possible. You see, the cowardly terrorists are experts at using civilians as human shields.
A simple yes would have sufficed. Apparently the nationality of the dead or injured civilians matters in your universe. Your approval of the disproportionate collateral damage (in turns of property and personal damage as well as terror) by the IDF thoroughly transforms your arguments into nothing more than morally repugnant special pleadings.
Rules of war state that a rocket firing range no matter where it's located is a legitimate target. The IDF go out of their way unlike their enemies to limit civilian casualties as far as is possible. In fact they often risk their own soldiers lives when in fact a missile could have done the job of disarming a weapons storage site for example.
 
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