Angela Merkel wants to ban the burka?

[Derec]

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

If they do not want to integrate, they can go home. Islamists who wish to islamicize Europe instead of europising themselves should not be allowed to immigrate.

Merkel was right the first time. Multiculturalism is a failure. It always ends up with one culture winning out. And Islamists want that to be Islam.

To say that people like him, whether male or female, should not be allowed to immigrate and/or stay in Europe should be clear to everybody. It is not xenophobia to reject those who wish to dismantle the societies they immigrate into.

Burka is the expression of the most authoritarian, repressive stands of Islam. Why should Europe allow this cancer to invade it?

Deport them all!

 

[whichphilosophy]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

I'm a European born in the UK and have traveled in Europe but I never integrated so what chance to those entering coming have. Diversity is far more interesting provided there is tolerance and positive interaction.

Positive interaction with a person with a bag over her head who is not allowed to even interact with you in the first place?
Truth is, Merkel and other multi-culturalism theorists expected some level of integration/assimilation but more often than not they got zero amount of it.
And it's getting worse because with the number of muslims increasing they don't even feel the need to integrate they can happily live in their own little Saudi Arabias and occasionally go to Anti-Cartoon demonstrations.

Not may Muslims wear a head covering. However I was still able to communicate in the few who worked in our office who wore such things. Most don't and it is not actually in the Koran itself. Those few who are violent can be jailed and/or deported unless they are (in the case of America) US citizens whereupon they would be jailed where a crime has been commited.

 

[laughing dog]

That looks for all the world like an attempt to paint Loren as having said Muslim men are animals.

He wrote he wrote. I am not responsible for your reading comprehension or reasoning difficulties.

You owe him an apology.

For quoting him verbatim? That is ridiculous.

But it will be a cold day in hell when you choose to behave in a civilized manner.

You mean like having a mini-meltdown over someone being quoted accurately?

Not sure what an "erst libertarian" is, or what it has to do with my post. Jayjay isn't a libertarian, and neither am I.

1st, believe it or not, but the world does not revolve around you. 2nd, you are as close to being a libertarian as the "leftists" in this thread are actually leftists.

 

[barbos]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

I'm a European born in the UK and have traveled in Europe but I never integrated so what chance to those entering coming have. Diversity is far more interesting provided there is tolerance and positive interaction.

Positive interaction with a person with a bag over her head who is not allowed to even interact with you in the first place?
Truth is, Merkel and other multi-culturalism theorists expected some level of integration/assimilation but more often than not they got zero amount of it.
And it's getting worse because with the number of muslims increasing they don't even feel the need to integrate they can happily live in their own little Saudi Arabias and occasionally go to Anti-Cartoon demonstrations.

Not may Muslims wear a head covering bag over their head. However I was still able to communicate in the few who worked in our office who wore such things. Most don't and it is not actually in the Koran itself.

Fixed for you. Do you have official statistics? The fact that it is not in a Koran does not really matter. What matter is the fact that integration is utterly failing, certainly it is not what they (in the EU) had been expecting

Those few who are violent can be jailed and/or deported unless they are (in the case of America) US citizens whereupon they would be jailed where a crime has been commited.

Is there a reason why are you telling me that?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

If they do not want to integrate, they can go home. Islamists who wish to islamicize Europe instead of europising themselves should not be allowed to immigrate.

Merkel was right the first time. Multiculturalism is a failure. It always ends up with one culture winning out. And Islamists want that to be Islam.

To say that people like him, whether male or female, should not be allowed to immigrate and/or stay in Europe should be clear to everybody. It is not xenophobia to reject those who wish to dismantle the societies they immigrate into.

Burka is the expression of the most authoritarian, repressive stands of Islam. Why should Europe allow this cancer to invade it?

Deport them all!

Or we can deport people like you. I think that would be preferable.

 

[Bomb#20]

He wrote he wrote. I am not responsible for your reading comprehension or reasoning difficulties.

He wrote what he wrote and it meant what it obviously meant, what Jolly Penguin said it meant:

"LP has a good point though. I have spoken with numerous muslims about why women are supposed to wear the veil, and the answer indeed is that it is for modesty and to keep men from looking because they are considered unable to control themselves from temptation. Same reason why they separate the men from women in the mosques."​

You owe him an apology.

For quoting him verbatim? That is ridiculous.

No, obviously not for quoting him verbatim, Mr. "reading comprehension or reasoning difficulties". You did quite a bit more than quote him verbatim, and you damn well know you did, so stop pretending that's all you did. You enclosed your verbatim quote in "Why stop there" and "The state can and does put down animals for their misbehavior", as though that were a logical implication of Loren's position.

Yes, you quoted him verbatim. He said "it's basically a statement that Muslim men are animals, not humans". Verbatim. Exactly which part of the phrase "it's basically a statement that" don't you understand, PROFESSOR? He did not contend that Muslim men are animals. He attributed the contention that they are animals to somebody else! And you quoted him doing it. Verbatim. So for you to respond as though that were his own contention is unconscionable. Stop spewing strawmen or get lost.

Are you this incompetent and malevolent when you grade your students' papers?

 

[laughing dog]

, obviously not for quoting him verbatim, Mr. "reading comprehension or reasoning difficulties". You did quite a bit more than quote him verbatim, and you damn well know you did, so stop pretending that's all you did. You enclosed your verbatim quote in "Why stop there" and "The state can and does put down animals for their misbehavior", as though that were a logical implication of Loren's position.

I responded to
“Hey what if their families decide to move back to Saudi Arabia or wherever they came from as a result of this? I mean if we've already established that the state has an interest in protecting people from their own decisions then does the state have a right to make sure the woman stays here?”
The “why stop there” was obviously in reference to the quote I was referring to (which was not from LP). So that had nothing to do whatsoever with LP at all.
As to the state putting down animals for their misbehavior quote - that is a logical extension from the sentiment in the statement I quoted. I did not say that was Loren’s position that Muslims should be put down. If I had meant that, I would have written it.

Will this stop your straw men and your ridiculous meltdown?

 

[laughing dog]

You have no basis in what I wrote to imagine what I meant was "That the abused somehow stand up to the abuser". You made that up out of whole cloth. In any event, I wasn't talking to you.

Of course I had a basis. You wrote "They simply systematically ignore the psychology of domestic violence" which implies you believe you have some knowledge about the psychology of domestic violence. I asked a simple question and received a dyspeptic response. Whether you were talking to me or not, this is a public forum. Anyone can respond to your posts whether you like it or not, or whether or not you are capable of intelligent discussion on the topic.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

LP has a good point though. I have spoken with numerous muslims about why women are supposed to wear the veil, and the answer indeed is that it is for modesty and to keep men from looking because they are considered unable to control themselves from temptation. Same reason why they separate the men from women in the mosques. My response has always been "Then why should this create an imposition on the women? Why shouldn't the men wear blinders?"

It would be pretty hard for them to function.

How about some glasses that block out typical skin tones, though? They could still function but they couldn't see the enticing flesh.

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This is not some issue that affects only Muslims. Women of all creeds and backgrounds modify their dress and even behavior based on how men behave in response. A non-Muslim woman might easily opt to wear something more conservative because she doesn't want to be ogled or cat-called. She shouldn't have to make that choice. But it's still her choice to make, regardless of why. You sure as hell don't get to take that choice away from her. No different here.

But it's her choice. The burqa is generally forced. I don't care what women choose to wear. I care when what they wear is dictated. (And, yes, I apply that across the board. I do not believe there should be an offense such as indecent exposure.)

 

[Running to Mars]

As an ex Muslim who hates Islam more than any other religion, I find the idea of banning the burqa, or any otherpiece of clothing, to be pretty reprehensible. Wearing the burqa doesn't harm anyone so why ban it?

Earlier in the thread, the user Bomb #20 brought up the idea that objecting to a burqa ban means you have to object to a minimum wage. (Sorry, I'm a newbie at this stuff so I don't know the proper procedure for quoting and all that.)
But anyways, the reason why we can prohibit working for under the minimum wage is because it does hurt other people ( businesses start expecting people to work for less and many can't afford to work for that little.) Wearing the burqa doesnt.
You can argue that wearing the burqa harms the wearer. And I'd actually agree with you. I think the burqa is a horrendous, grotesque symbol of oppression against women. And I'd honestly rejoice if it disappeared from the face of the earyh tomorrow. But you have to respect people's decisions to wear what they want (again, as long as it doesn't bring harm to anyone else.) Even if you think they're making the wrong decision or hurting themselves. Because otherwise you start banning people for smoking weed, or playing too many video games. All because "it's for their own good."

 

[Warpoet]

But it's her choice. The burqa is generally forced. I don't care what women choose to wear. I care when what they wear is dictated. (And, yes, I apply that across the board. I do not believe there should be an offense such as indecent exposure.)

How the fuck do you know whether or not women wearing the burqa are being forced to do so? How many have you talked to?

You don't get to ban things because your intuition tells you it's wrong, or because you think people might be coerced into doing it (which is already illegal to begin with).

 

[Warpoet]

If they do not want to integrate, they can go home. Islamists who wish to islamicize Europe instead of europising themselves should not be allowed to immigrate.

You don't get to decide what is or is not a sufficient level of "Europization" or "westernization," or what happens to people who don't attain it. If you don't like that, you can get the fuck out.

Merkel was right the first time. Multiculturalism is a failure. It always ends up with one culture winning out. And Islamists want that to be Islam.

Fearmongering bullshit.

To say that people like him, whether male or female, should not be allowed to immigrate and/or stay in Europe should be clear to everybody. It is not xenophobia to reject those who wish to dismantle the societies they immigrate into.

Burka is the expression of the most authoritarian, repressive stands of Islam. Why should Europe allow this cancer to invade it?

Deport them all!

Fuck your sensationalist agitprop. The only people dismantling free society are people like you, and the others in this thread who think it's their prerogative to take away other peoples' right to free speech when they've decided it's crossed the line.

I think your views on a number of issues are fucking repugnant, and that western society in general would be vastly improved if you and those who think like you do fucked off and created your own little bantustan of bigotry. But I would never support the government forcing you to do so, because I'm not an authoritarian asshat, and I understand how free society functions.

 

[barbos]

But it's her choice. The burqa is generally forced. I don't care what women choose to wear. I care when what they wear is dictated. (And, yes, I apply that across the board. I do not believe there should be an offense such as indecent exposure.)

How the fuck do you know whether or not women wearing the burqa are being forced to do so? How many have you talked to?

There is countless data and testimonies which say that women are in fact forced to wear these bags over their heads.
You can say some of them say they want it to wear but I would say they were brainwashed into saying that by their imam and other caliphs.
Unless all these imams/caliphs and other degenerates stop suggesting that nonsense we can't be sure what these women say is what they really would have wanted.

You don't get to ban things because your intuition tells you it's wrong, or because you think people might be coerced into doing it (which is already illegal to begin with).

It's a fucking bag over ones head, no normal person would wish to wear it.

 

[Warpoet]

There is countless data and testimonies which say that women are in fact forced to wear these bags over their heads.

Produce the data.

You can say some of them say they want it to wear but I would say they were brainwashed into saying that by their imam and other caliphs.

And I would say all people who blindly accept religious doctrine have been brainwashed. So if religion is allowed, so are outward expressions of it like the burka, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about it.

Unless all these imams/caliphs and other degenerates stop suggesting that nonsense we can't be sure what these women say is what they really would have wanted.

It doesn't matter if you're sure or not. Muslims don't have to convince you of anything, especially not that they're choosing to wear what they wear of their own free will.

It's a fucking bag over ones head, no normal person would wish to wear it.

No normal person spends the amount of time you do prowling around the internet on anti-Muslim hate sites, and obsessing over complete fucking non-issues like the burka. Maybe we should deport you.

 

[barbos]

Produce the data.

You can say some of them say they want it to wear but I would say they were brainwashed into saying that by their imam and other caliphs.

And I would say all people who blindly accept religious doctrine have been brainwashed. So if religion is allowed, so are outward expressions of it like the burka, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about it.

Unless all these imams/caliphs and other degenerates stop suggesting that nonsense we can't be sure what these women say is what they really would have wanted.

It doesn't matter if you're sure or not. Muslims don't have to convince you of anything, especially not that they're choosing to wear what they wear of their own free will.

It's a fucking bag over ones head, no normal person would wish to wear it.

No normal person spends the amount of time you do prowling around the internet on anti-Muslim hate sites, and obsessing over complete fucking non-issues like the burka. Maybe we should deport you.

This is the only web site where I bash muslims. And on this particular issue I agree with Merkel.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Produce the data.



And I would say all people who blindly accept religious doctrine have been brainwashed. So if religion is allowed, so are outward expressions of it like the burka, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks about it.

Unless all these imams/caliphs and other degenerates stop suggesting that nonsense we can't be sure what these women say is what they really would have wanted.

It doesn't matter if you're sure or not. Muslims don't have to convince you of anything, especially not that they're choosing to wear what they wear of their own free will.

It's a fucking bag over ones head, no normal person would wish to wear it.

No normal person spends the amount of time you do prowling around the internet on anti-Muslim hate sites, and obsessing over complete fucking non-issues like the burka. Maybe we should deport you.

This is the only web site where I bash muslims. And on this particular issue I agree with Merkel.

How is that in any way an impediment to you producing the data from which you based your opinions?

 

[iolo]

Gee, look who is talking, follower of a pedophile from 7th century.

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You keep portraying this as a fashion and freedom of expression problem. It's not. These women have no other fashion choices other than bag over their heads. It's a problem of integration, not fashion.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to forcibly "integrate" anybody by dictating what they can and can't wear.

It's either integration or deportation

And you still refuse to join the civilized world, barbos?

I would not call Islamic world civilized

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Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up already.

It's either integration or deportation

See above

No, you shut the fuck up.

At certain times the Islamic world has been the height of civilization, Christendom the depths of barbarism. Colonialism and the like have bad effects on people, as do ludicrous bully-boy rulers. Trump should see America out of the civilized world in double-quick time, since he has never heard of civilization, the thick bugger.

 

[DrZoidberg]

At certain times the Islamic world has been the height of civilization, Christendom the depths of barbarism. Colonialism and the like have bad effects on people, as do ludicrous bully-boy rulers. Trump should see America out of the civilized world in double-quick time, since he has never heard of civilization, the thick bugger.

The obvious conclusion is that religion is neither the driver of civilization nor it's enemy. Religion also isn't static. It's in constant flux. It adapts to the politics, power dynamics and technological realities it finds itself in. The Islamic world went from the pinnacle of scientific achievement to being insular and fearing change. This shift when the Islamic world was the undisputed leader of the civilized world. In just two hundred years Europe went from ignorant barbarians to blowing the Islamic world out of the water. There's a lesson here to be learned about the cost of arrogance. Arrogance killed Islamic superiority. And it's looking like arrogance is going to kill any current western superiority. Time for some humility and self assessment?

What religion is for or why it exists is another matter. But I think it's pretty obvious that in this context it's the false enemy to go after. Religion is a symptom. Hardly the root cause.

 

[barbos]

At certain times the Islamic world has been the height of civilization, Christendom the depths of barbarism.

Yes, but it was long time ago during completely different era. We can't really make conclusion/predictions on such scale.

Colonialism and the like have bad effects on people, as do ludicrous bully-boy rulers.

Don't give too much credit to individual rulers.

Trump should see America out of the civilized world in double-quick time, since he has never heard of civilization, the thick bugger.

It's only 4 years, probably less than that.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, but it was long time ago during completely different era. We can't really make conclusion/predictions on such scale.

If we don't base our predictions on the future on the past, what are we supposed to base them on? And a couple of hundred years ago is not that long ago. I don't think you fully realize how close Europe came to get conquered by the Ottomans in 1683. The Holy Roman empire was extremely close to falling. And that was the most powerful army Europe had at the time. 1683 isn't that long time ago.