Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[Derec]

Was a good portion of opposition to Obama due to pure racism?

I don't think so. Ever since Clinton there has been a lot of hatred for the president from the other side, and it keeps getting worse. Hatred of Bush 43 was worse than hatred for Clinton, hatred for Obama was worse than Bush 43, and hatred for Trump is much worse than hatred for Obama. Obama is hardly an outlier in this trend, so there is no need to postulate race as a factor.

Same folks that raged in Gamergate.

Gamergate is a response to radical feminist Anitra Sar-somethingorother complaining about games that do not have sufficient feminist content. If she doesn't like some games, she should not play them. Simple as that. Not all games have to meet with approval of the radical feminists like her.

But it is the folks that hated the most qualified black person to run for the presidency, and love the least qualified white guy to run in 2016.

Well first of all, Obama is biracial. Interesting how in American racial parlance the white half of a biracial person gets ignored and erased.
Second, Obama wasn't that experienced when he got elected.

 

[Arctish]

I don't think so. Ever since Clinton there has been a lot of hatred for the president from the other side, and it keeps getting worse. Hatred of Bush 43 was worse than hatred for Clinton, hatred for Obama was worse than Bush 43, and hatred for Trump is much worse than hatred for Obama. Obama is hardly an outlier in this trend, so there is no need to postulate race as a factor.


Gamergate is a response to radical feminist Anitra Sar-somethingorother complaining about games that do not have sufficient feminist content. If she doesn't like some games, she should not play them. Simple as that. Not all games have to meet with approval of the radical feminists like her.

But it is the folks that hated the most qualified black person to run for the presidency, and love the least qualified white guy to run in 2016.

Well first of all, Obama is biracial. Interesting how in American racial parlance the white half of a biracial person gets ignored and erased.
Second, Obama wasn't that experienced when he got elected.

Hey Derec, you know that thing about looking for the original quote in context whenever you see a sentence fragment that's been turned into a meme? You should try it sometime.

 

[Patooka]

I don't think so. Ever since Clinton there has been a lot of hatred for the president from the other side, and it keeps getting worse. Hatred of Bush 43 was worse than hatred for Clinton, hatred for Obama was worse than Bush 43, and hatred for Trump is much worse than hatred for Obama. Obama is hardly an outlier in this trend, so there is no need to postulate race as a factor.


Gamergate is a response to radical feminist Anitra Sar-somethingorother complaining about games that do not have sufficient feminist content. If she doesn't like some games, she should not play them. Simple as that. Not all games have to meet with approval of the radical feminists like her.

But it is the folks that hated the most qualified black person to run for the presidency, and love the least qualified white guy to run in 2016.

Well first of all, Obama is biracial. Interesting how in American racial parlance the white half of a biracial person gets ignored and erased.
Second, Obama wasn't that experienced when he got elected.

This bullshit has already been discussed and thoroughly debunked in a previous discussion

 

[Derec]

This bullshit has already been discussed and thoroughly debunked in a previous discussion

It has been discussed, but hardly debunked. If she thinks that Mario is sexist because a plot point is to rescue Princess Peach, then she pretty much still thinks that everything is sexist.
Again, instead of demanding all video games kowtow to her gender political views, why not just play games she likes?

 

[Juma]

This bullshit has already been discussed and thoroughly debunked in a previous discussion

It has been discussed, but hardly debunked. If she thinks that Mario is sexist because a plot point is to rescue Princess Peach, then she pretty much still thinks that everything is sexist.
Again, instead of demanding all video games kowtow to her gender political views, why not just play games she likes?

How many films, books, video games are about how a man/boy saving a women/girl?
How many are about how woman/girl saves a man/boy?

So you see it is not about a specific video game. Its just the writers that falls into same old boring stories written for boys.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Hey Derec, you know that thing about looking for the original quote in context whenever you see a sentence fragment that's been turned into a meme? You should try it sometime.

The original context is her saying that when she first "learned systems" she thought that everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you have to point it all out. She said she now realizes (at time of saying this quote) that this can be annoying. She is at the very least saying that this is what people who "learn systems" are being indoctrinated into.

It is entirely vague whether she now thinks you dont have to point it all out, because that's annoying, or if she still believes that everything is sexist and everything is racist.

What is clear and explicit is that she once thought exactly that, may still, and that this view according to her comes with "learning systems".

She hasn't said that she doesn't still think that everything is sexist and racist despite plenty of opportunities to do so. So at best, you can maybe adjust the time stamp on the quote, but it was definitely accurate for her at one time, and may still be, so raising it as an example of a way some people actually do think is perfectly valid.

 

[Arctish]

This bullshit has already been discussed and thoroughly debunked in a previous discussion

It has been discussed, but hardly debunked. If she thinks that Mario is sexist because a plot point is to rescue Princess Peach, then she pretty much still thinks that everything is sexist.
Again, instead of demanding all video games kowtow to her gender political views, why not just play games she likes?

It's obvious you never watched her video series or did even the slightest bit of research into that mined quote. And that's too bad.

 

[Arctish]

Hey Derec, you know that thing about looking for the original quote in context whenever you see a sentence fragment that's been turned into a meme? You should try it sometime.

The original context is her saying that when she first "learned systems" she thought that everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you have to point it all out. She said she now realizes (at time of saying this quote) that this can be annoying. She is at the very least saying that this is what people who "learn systems" are being indoctrinated into.

It is entirely vague whether she now thinks you dont have to point it all out, because that's annoying, or if she still believes that everything is sexist and everything is racist.

What is clear and explicit is that she once thought exactly that, may still, and that this view according to her comes with "learning systems".

She hasn't said that she doesn't still think that everything is sexist and racist despite plenty of opportunities to do so. So at best, you can maybe adjust the time stamp on the quote, but it was definitely accurate for her at one time, and may still be, so raising it as an example of a way some people actually do think is perfectly valid.

***ETA: I started a Sarkeesian thread here so this one won't be derailed.

 

[Arctish]

Anita Sarkeesian remains a controversial figure in some circles, and her work is still being discussed and argued over, so I though it was time to take another look at her most well known series, Tropes vs Women in Video Games. This thread is intended to be an examination of Sarkeesian's work and its place in popular culture. I think a certain amount of politics and meme posting is unavoidable but that shouldn't be the focus.

Ms. Sarkeesian begins her series with this:

"Welcome to our multi-part video series exploring the roles and representations of women in video games. This project will examine the tropes, plot devices, and patterns most commonly associated with women in gaming from a systemic, big picture perspective. This series will include critical analysis of many beloved games and characters but remember it's both possible, and even necessary, to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects."

And here's her first installment:




So what do you think of Sarkeesian's commentary? On target, sounds reasonable, or crazy talk?

 

[Underseer]

I read people complaining about her video for months before I actually watched it.

I was prepared to be annoyed with her, but I found that most of the criticisms didn't seem to actually apply to anything she said.

I think most of the wailing about her video was just incel woman-haters and sexist troglodytes having a giant hissy fit because someone pointed out that the "rescue the princess" trope that originated in ancient stories reduces women to something upon which actions are taken, not someone who takes action.

And while it's been a while since I saw the video, if I remember right, she quite correctly pointed out that older stories are generally worse about this kind of crap. For instance, in the King Arthur stories of old, any woman who takes action instead of sitting around and waiting for actions to be performed upon her by men turns out to be a villain of one kind or another. The "good" women of those ancient stories rarely make decisions of consequence nor perform actions that have any real affect on the world. "Good" women sit around and wait for men to do that shit.

She even points out that the trope is more prevalent and generally more egregious in older video games as opposed to modern (as of the time the video was made) games.

But from the wailing of the MRA woman-haters, it sounded like she was issuing a fatwah against all men and demanding our immediate execution or something, or demanding that video games never be made again or some shit. I'm not sure if most of those who complained about this video actually watched the damn thing.

 

[Underseer]

I also thought MovieBob had a pretty good take on the whole thing, although he made this video to address the critics before he watched the actual video they were complaining about.



But it's still a pretty accurate and hilarious savaging of the "men have it just as bad" arguments of the MRA morons.

 

[Mumbles]

Fun Part - here's the tvtropes page on the "Damsel in Distress" trope.. Princess Toadstool (yeah, fine, Peach) is literally the picture they use to illustrate the trope. And it's been there for years. Nostalgia Critic also points to her as an obvious example of the "Dumbasses in Distress" Trope - she's the second worst, behind that Twilight girl. Her analysis of Princess Zelda is correct, and obviously so, as well.

I honestly stopped paying much attention to Saarkesian's stuff after a few episodes, mostly because up until she showed up, pretty much everyone agreed that a lot of the tropes were obvious. Basically, she's entry-level, and that's fine, but I already know the stuff she's discussing.

Also worth noting - the outraged howls was not about what she was saying, because they went into overdrive on backwaters like 4Chan before she had released the first episode of her gaming series. They actually began shortly after she opened her Kickstarter campaign. This is why so many of the responses to her are so similar to one another, and why they deliberately distort what she plainly says: they were guys angry boys flailing about because they had to share their toys with girls. It's no different than the years-long attack on Zoe Quinn - it wasn't about "journalism ethics", because they happily attacked actual integrity activists. They responded instead to allegations of infidelity from Quinn's ex-boyfriend. ANd it's no different than the freakout over #metoo, claiming that they hate men period, when they've been openly supporting Terry Crews since he discussed being sexually harrassed/assaulted as a man.

 

[bigfield]

So what do you think of Sarkeesian's commentary? On target, sounds reasonable, or crazy talk?

It's just poor quality work: her research is shallow, and her arguments aren't very good.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What percentage of games allow people to play as a woman?

 

[Arctish]

So what do you think of Sarkeesian's commentary? On target, sounds reasonable, or crazy talk?

It's just poor quality work: her research is shallow, and her arguments aren't very good.

Are you talking about the first installment in the series or all of them together? I intend to discuss all of them if people are willing, so if there's a particularly poor installment, we'll get to it.

Which of her talking points in Damsels in Distress Part 1 are not well supported? Which games do you think she overlooked or mischaracterized? Where do you think her research was most shallow?

 

[bigfield]

So what do you think of Sarkeesian's commentary? On target, sounds reasonable, or crazy talk?

It's just poor quality work: her research is shallow, and her arguments aren't very good.

Are you talking about the first installment in the series or all of them together? I intend to discuss all of them if people are willing, so if there's a particularly poor installment, we'll get to it.

The complete series.

Which of her talking points in Damsels in Distress Part 1 are not well supported? Which games do you think she overlooked or mischaracterized? Where do you think her research was most shallow?

From the transcript:

The pattern of presenting women as fundamentally weak, ineffective or entirely incapable also has larger ramifications beyond the characters themselves and the specific games they inhabit. We have to remember that these games do not exist in a vacuum, they are an increasingly important and influential part of our larger social and cultural ecosystem.

The reality is that this troupe [sic] is being used in a real-world context where backwards sexist attitudes are already rampant. It’s a sad fact that a large percentage of the world’s population still clings to the deeply sexist belief that women as a group need to be sheltered, protected and taken care of by men.

The belief that women are somehow a “naturally weaker gender” is a deeply ingrained socially constructed myth, which of course is completely false- but the notion is reinforced and perpetuated when women are continuously portrayed as frail, fragile, and vulnerable creatures.

"Naturally weaker" in what way? If we are talking physical strength then she is flat-out wrong that it's "completely false". Her entire presentation contrasts male and female characters in terms of their ability to fight, so it is fair to assume she is talking about physical strength.

Sarkeesian also engages in cherry-picking when she claims that "women are continuously portrayed as frail, fragile, and vulnerable creatures." While this charcterisation is accurate with respect to many games featuring Princesses Peach and Zelda, it isn't true of Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Commander Shepard, and Joanna Dark. If Peach and Zelda reinforce the notion that women are the weaker gender, then surely the exceptional female adventurers and warriors have the opposite effect, and perhaps the medium is not as male-chauvinistic as Sarkeesian characterises it to be.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

In the video Arctish posted above, skip to 1:21 to bypass the 3rd party apologetics. She says exactly what I described above. She admits that "systems" indoctrinates you to see that "Everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you've got to point it all out", and she admits that doing so is obnoxious, and that she was like this. She doesn't say that she no longer believes that everything is sexist and racist. I don't know what folks like Arctish think is being so dishonestly taken out of context.

 

[repoman]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you talking about the first installment in the series or all of them together? I intend to discuss all of them if people are willing, so if there's a particularly poor installment, we'll get to it.

The complete series.

Which of her talking points in Damsels in Distress Part 1 are not well supported? Which games do you think she overlooked or mischaracterized? Where do you think her research was most shallow?

From the transcript:

The pattern of presenting women as fundamentally weak, ineffective or entirely incapable also has larger ramifications beyond the characters themselves and the specific games they inhabit. We have to remember that these games do not exist in a vacuum, they are an increasingly important and influential part of our larger social and cultural ecosystem.

The reality is that this troupe [sic] is being used in a real-world context where backwards sexist attitudes are already rampant. It’s a sad fact that a large percentage of the world’s population still clings to the deeply sexist belief that women as a group need to be sheltered, protected and taken care of by men.

The belief that women are somehow a “naturally weaker gender” is a deeply ingrained socially constructed myth, which of course is completely false- but the notion is reinforced and perpetuated when women are continuously portrayed as frail, fragile, and vulnerable creatures.

"Naturally weaker" in what way? If we are talking physical strength then she is flat-out wrong that it's "completely false". Her entire presentation contrasts male and female characters in terms of their ability to fight, so it is fair to assume she is talking about physical strength.

Sarkeesian also engages in cherry-picking when she claims that "women are continuously portrayed as frail, fragile, and vulnerable creatures." While this charcterisation is accurate with respect to many games featuring Princesses Peach and Zelda, it isn't true of Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Commander Shepard, and Joanna Dark. If Peach and Zelda reinforce the notion that women are the weaker gender, then surely the exceptional female adventurers and warriors have the opposite effect, and perhaps the medium is not as male-chauvinistic as Sarkeesian characterises it to be.

How representative is Lara Croft? I mean Jebus... Mario is a short fat fucker and still a hero. Most of the guy characters are absurdly unmanlike, as they represent only the top 0.001% of men, except Mario, who is closer to most men, but still capable of incredible feats... if he is wearing the right outfit.

 

[laughing dog]

In the video Arctish posted above, skip to 1:21 to bypass the 3rd party apologetics. She says exactly what I described above. She admits that "systems" indoctrinates you to see that "Everything is sexist, everything is racist, and you've got to point it all out", and she admits that doing so is obnoxious, and that she was like this. She doesn't say that she no longer believes that everything is sexist and racist. I don't know what folks like Arctish think is being so dishonestly taken out of context.

Because it appears from her tone and body language that her admission of "obnoxiousness" is also an apology. Even the male commentator in the clip got that.

Without further specific information about the person who does not recognize that seemingly obvious meaning from the clip, it would be difficult to determine whether it is due to ideological bias, intellectual dishonesty, or cluelessness.