Another black tells the truth

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's attacking his history rather than his arguments.

His argument is ironic.

So why the heck is a guy who isn't a role model complaining about how kids should choose role models?

That is not a contradiction. People who do not see themselves as role models can still have valid opinions about who should be a role model.

That is super. "You should inspire to be like that guy over there. Not me. I live life as a complete and utter jackass. There is no hypocrisy there. I'm rich!"

or

"Do as I say... do as that guy says and does."

 

[Jokodo]

Which "black racists"?

For example the guy who was bitching about Barkley on the radio yesterday and was bringing up his white wife up all the time.
How do you imagine I knew that fact about him in the first place?

What guy? What radio? So they found a guy who would bitch about Barkley's white wife in front of a mic? Good job. Doesn't change the fact that racism (measured as prevalence of negative attitudes towards miscegenation, but other symptoms show the same) is much more common among whites.

It follows that bitching about black racism isn't going to get you anywhere in a reasoned discussion.

 

[bigfield]

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/10/unintelligent_blacks_brainwash.html

I don't think people are going to pay any more attention this time than they have before.

Barkley's opinion wasn't formed after engaging in a rigorous study that compared anti-intellectualism across multiple racial groups.

So why the fuck should his statements change anyone's views?

What makes him an authority on the matter?

 

[NobleSavage]

The question is, can we fix ghetto culture? I doubt it. The only way to fix those communities is for business to move in and provide good jobs. No corporation is going to set up shop in Detroit or any other ghetto. The best thing for people stuck in that trap would be to buy a bus ticket and get the fuck out.

 

[Toni]

The question is, can we fix ghetto culture? I doubt it. The only way to fix those communities is for business to move in and provide good jobs. No corporation is going to set up shop in Detroit or any other ghetto. The best thing for people stuck in that trap would be to buy a bus ticket and get the fuck out.

Really? Ghetto culture? Really?

What if it isn't 'those communities' which need 'fixing' but the other communities which use 'those communities' to serve as a perpetual underclass, scapegoat and distraction, not to mention convenient source of drugs to help the yuppies get through their days of mindless acquisition and give them some tiny pretense of grit, street cred, soul? Maybe it's the rest of us who need 'fixing' so that whatever deep, dark, bottomless hole inside ourselves where our actual soul should reside doesn't have to project it's own failings and sins on 'those communities' to distract us from looking at our own shortcomings.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/04/detr-o04.html

 

[Derec]

What guy? What radio?

A guy on a local radio station here.

So they found a guy who would bitch about Barkley's white wife in front of a mic? Good job.

The difference is that a white guy complaining about miscegenation would not last in front of a mic long.

Doesn't change the fact that racism (measured as prevalence of negative attitudes towards miscegenation, but other symptoms show the same) is much more common among whites.

I do not think one poll is sufficient evidence for such a claim.

It follows that bitching about black racism isn't going to get you anywhere in a reasoned discussion.

If racism is a problem then all racism is a problem.

 

[Jokodo]

A guy on a local radio station here.

What guy? Someone who called in? A host? Someone they interviewed on the street? Someone they had carefully picked after a long search to demonstrate the reality of black racism, successfully duping you into believing it's a big thing?

So they found a guy who would bitch about Barkley's white wife in front of a mic? Good job.

The difference is that a white guy complaining about miscegenation would not last in front of a mic long.

On a local radio? You sure about that?

Doesn't change the fact that racism (measured as prevalence of negative attitudes towards miscegenation, but other symptoms show the same) is much more common among whites.

I do not think one poll is sufficient evidence for such a claim.

It's enough for the claim that African Americans are four times less likely to disapprove of miscegenation than European Americans, and that Whites have consistently been at least twice as likely to disapprove for decades. Whether that generalises to racist attitudes in other domains is another question but one we needn't be overly concerned about at this point because you chose to pick out disapproval of miscegenation as the tell-tale sign of black racists.

It follows that bitching about black racism isn't going to get you anywhere in a reasoned discussion.

If racism is a problem then all racism is a problem.

In principle, yes. But there if there are a) fewer blacks, b) they tend to less power and influence on average, and c) a lower rate of them are racists, then black racism is going to have much less real world impact and will thus fail as an explanation for most real world phenomena.

Or in other words: all racism is moronic, but only one is at this point a practical impediment to reaching a better society.

 

[Mumbles]

you know what, Barkley is right. All of us black men should stop listening to men who drop out of school to play basketball, who get into a series of fights on court, who throw someone through a window, who gamble compulsively, and who catch a DUI while speeding because they just can't wait for a blowjob.

A textbook example of ad hominem fallacy I think.

Not at all. I wasn't making an argument, I was mocking Charles Barkley for projecting his own mistakes and character problems onto other people. I feel no need to protect "black people" from the sort of malarkey he was spouting, when anyone who sees "black people" knows better.

 

[Unbeatable]

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2014/10/unintelligent_blacks_brainwash.html

I don't think people are going to pay any more attention this time than they have before.

Well sure, if the point you want us to take away from this is "blame blacks for their own problems". If this is just more social darwinistic just-world-bias thinking, basically; if you want the buck to stop within the "black community", where you can classify it as someone else's problem, then I can understand why people would be dismissive.

But it's an interesting question of social psychology. What facilitates the "brainwashing"? How does a subculture develop norms that discourage behaviors predictive of success in the majority culture? I suspect segregation, disenfranchisement, hopelessness, etc are factors. How do you break brainwashing?

People would pay more attention if you framed a story like this as something other than "See? Cherry-picked evidence to vindicate my political biases!" Just like your link about that woman whose story illustrated the negative impact of poverty upon a person's mental health, it's possible to frame this link to fit the worldview of your political opponents. It's not a slam dunk for your side.

 

[NobleSavage]

The question is, can we fix ghetto culture? I doubt it. The only way to fix those communities is for business to move in and provide good jobs. No corporation is going to set up shop in Detroit or any other ghetto. The best thing for people stuck in that trap would be to buy a bus ticket and get the fuck out.

Really? Ghetto culture? Really?

What if it isn't 'those communities' which need 'fixing' but the other communities which use 'those communities' to serve as a perpetual underclass, scapegoat and distraction, not to mention convenient source of drugs to help the yuppies get through their days of mindless acquisition and give them some tiny pretense of grit, street cred, soul? Maybe it's the rest of us who need 'fixing' so that whatever deep, dark, bottomless hole inside ourselves where our actual soul should reside doesn't have to project it's own failings and sins on 'those communities' to distract us from looking at our own shortcomings.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/04/detr-o04.html

Yes. Ghetto culture. It's completely destructive. It need not be a race thing, there are plenty of destructive cultures. Even in business a corporation can have a destructive culture. Changing a corporate culture can kill a company. One of the biggest problems I see with ghetto culture is kids having children with no father support. Making the father pay child support is worthless, because the father can't find a job and then we put him in jail and taxpayers pick up the tab. I'm all for free birth control and free abortions. Hell, I'd give a $500 bonus for abortions. One of my friends in grad school was a "Big Sister" for a 14yr old girl in the ghetto. She did everything she could to get her to use birth control, finish HS, and learn a skill. At 15 the girl got pregnant, had to take time off of school, etc, etc, etc. She didn't see any problem with it because that's what her friends did.

There is no conspiracy to keep a useful underclass. Industrialization left these areas because of global competition and the jobs went with them. Sometimes people just have to move. If I had a family in the ghetto I'd do everything in my power to buy a bus ticket to Huston (as one example) they have very affordable housing and lots of jobs. In Helena Montana they pay $20hr to work at Mc.Donald's, because everyone can find a better job. Granted, Helena cant absorb the much population.

If government is going to dump money I'd prefer they dump money into city that is working. Doing it the other way usual ends up in a mess. i.e. Pruitt–Igoe.

I'm familiar with what is happening in Detroit. I have friends that live in the suburbs there. They are basically making little elite conclaves for the yuppies. Private developers are doing it because they can make money. It doesn't make financial sense to rebuild Detroit for low income. If you want affordable housing it's cheaper to clear the area and build new rather than restore. No big developer is gonna do it unless there is some kind of plan on providing jobs. Yes they are taking the city's assets, but that is because the city owed a lot of money. If you had a private business and the city owed you money, how would you feel? With the bankruptcy the city gets to write off a lot of debts.

If you want to help the situation join Habitat for Humanity, help build a house, or give them money. They do a good job.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

It is unique because of the issues it creates like Teen Pregnancy. Sure, one could look at Mississippi and notice the teen pregnancy rate it higher there, but we don't want to get into details and facts. Straight up, ghetto gangsta culture be the probs.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Visit Detroit or E St. Louis. (Those are my two experiences) you will find exactly what is described.

Fortunately there are people trying to change that. Detroit schools are as bad as it gets in my experience when it comes to not knowing why you're in business. Simply off the charts.

 

[Axulus]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher than the general population for the negatitive attitudes and behaviors being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher than the general population for the negatitive attitudes and behaviors being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

Such as? What attitudes, for example?

 

[Mumbles]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher for the negatitive attitudes being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

Here's the problem with that - these sorts of critiques predate the creation of any so-called "ghetto gangsta culture". You can easily find them in black newspapers from the 19th century, in W.E.B. Du Bois' writings, and the like. Back during the Great Migration, the few black people in northern cities were saying it about the black people from the South. As much as people like Loren want to pretend that Barkley is saying something new and amazing that black people reject, the truth is that black people have *been* saying it. Barkley is just a remarkably bad (and un-self-aware) messenger for the message.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What makes ghetto culture unique?

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher than the general population for the negatitive attitudes and behaviors being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

Can you demonstrate that these negative attitudes and behaviors don't exist in rural areas where poverty is also observed?

 

[Axulus]

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher than the general population for the negatitive attitudes and behaviors being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

Can you demonstrate that these negative attitudes and behaviors don't exist in rural areas where poverty is also observed?

Like redneck culture? Society seems to think that this culture is a great source of comedy while ghetto culture is seen as scary due to fear from celebrating criminality and the "thug life" and being associated with blacks would be my guess.

 

[Axulus]

Rate of prevalence within these communities being much higher for the negatitive attitudes being discussed would be my guess, at least that seems to be implied by its staunchest critics.

Here's the problem with that - these sorts of critiques predate the creation of any so-called "ghetto gangsta culture". You can easily find them in black newspapers from the 19th century, in W.E.B. Du Bois' writings, and the like. Back during the Great Migration, the few black people in northern cities were saying it about the black people from the South. As much as people like Loren want to pretend that Barkley is saying something new and amazing that black people reject, the truth is that black people have *been* saying it. Barkley is just a remarkably bad (and un-self-aware) messenger for the message.

Good points. There are also many black community leaders in these troubled neighborhoods who do try to help at-risk youth to embrace education and to stay out of gangs, off drugs, not to get pregnant, etc. Seems like they understand there is work to be done in these areas.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Can you demonstrate that these negative attitudes and behaviors don't exist in rural areas where poverty is also observed?

Like redneck culture?

No like blacks that make up 40+% of the rural populations in some southern states.