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Another setback for the Right Wing and the GOP

It's very unlikely that the provably optimum solution for any reasonably large number of districts and voters is even computable in a reasonable amount of time.

Why do you think it's NP-hard?

So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.
 
It's very unlikely that the provably optimum solution for any reasonably large number of districts and voters is even computable in a reasonable amount of time.

Why do you think it's NP-hard?

So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.

I was defining optimum as having the minimum border area.
 
So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.

I was defining optimum as having the minimum border area.

The borders of two dimensional districts are one dimensional lines. They have length, but 'border area' is a category error - unless you are defining three dimensional districts.

And 'minimum border length' isn't a complete (or even close to complete) specification - unless you mean minimum border length per district and are happy with as many districts as there are voters, each a circle just large enough to contain the voter; or minimum border length in total, in which case a single district surrounding the entire nation, smoothed to eliminate the fractal property of the outline, will likely come close.

Without a complete specification, you can't determine how difficult it will be to find the optimum solution.

Indeed, we can move the entire problem back a step, and ask 'How hard is it to find the best specification of what constitutes an optimum solution?'. Bearing in mind that if you try to please everybody, somebody's not going to like it.

You are probably stuck with districts that must be entirely within a single state - which automatically makes some level of difference between the proportional support amongst voters and the proportion of elected representatives almost inevitable, unless you massively increase the number of representatives/districts in your more populous states.

And that assumes that the idea that proportional representation in the house should match proportional opinion in a state (or the nation) is part of the specification. But such an assumption requires re-districting whenever a voter switches sides - which cannot be determined without constantly polling voter opinion. You need an official opinion poll to set your districts. Probably the most practical idea is to use the results of the previous election. But if those results are to be accepted as current opinion, why have an election at all?

Perhaps a party list proportional representation system, with elected representatives then allocated to districts AFTER the votes are counted would work?

There are plenty more issues - some significant, others perhaps easily resolved. This whole business is very messy indeed - people move, they change their political opinions, they want to be grouped in ways that respect physical, political, traditional or other boundaries, some of which are poorly defined, and all of which have different levels of importance to each individual voter.

None of this is simple.

Perhaps it's not NP hard - but that depends on how you define 'optimal', and I wouldn't bet against the possibility that defing 'optimal' is uncomputable - even at a defined single point in time. It's certainly a moving target.
 
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Any effort to make electoral outcomes more consistent with the desires of the electorate will ALWAYS be opposed by Republicans. Until and unless Republicans are forcefully overruled, gerrymandering, voter suppression and even NC-style outright cheating will remain institutionalized.
 
So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.

I was defining optimum as having the minimum border area.

The borders of two dimensional districts are one dimensional lines. They have length, but 'border area' is a category error - unless you are defining three dimensional districts.

Yeah, I used the wrong word. I meant border length. You obviously understood, though.

And 'minimum border length' isn't a complete (or even close to complete) specification - unless you mean minimum border length per district and are happy with as many districts as there are voters, each a circle just large enough to contain the voter; or minimum border length in total, in which case a single district surrounding the entire nation, smoothed to eliminate the fractal property of the outline, will likely come close.

The number of districts is defined by the population, I mean you minimize the sum of the total border length, not counting state boundaries or natural barriers. The only input variable is how many districts there will be and you can't change that willy-nilly.

Without a complete specification, you can't determine how difficult it will be to find the optimum solution.

I am only aiming to replace the current system of drawing district boundaries. You're introducing a whole bunch of things that aren't related to that.

Perhaps it's not NP hard - but that depends on how you define 'optimal', and I wouldn't bet against the possibility that defing 'optimal' is uncomputable - even at a defined single point in time. It's certainly a moving target.

An optimum exists for the problem I specified even if one doesn't exist for what you're talking about.
 
So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.

I was defining optimum as having the minimum border area.
Yes, it's NP-complete. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6688/7e10c3c3e0c7ac1f44030176c667fcc786e3.pdf

(Specifically, I'm assuming you mean the minimum border length subject to the equal population requirement. We can certainly efficiently minimize border length alone -- we just make all but one district infinitesimally small.) Altman doesn't actually use border length -- there are many ways to formalize compactness and he picked one of the others -- but they're all NP-complete, because equalizing populations among districts is already NP-complete all by itself, even without a compactness constraint.

Another issue is that if you enacted a simple minimum border length criterion, then the algorithm would ignore communities of common interest, so it'd tend to split up minority-majority regions, which means the districts you'd get would very probably be tossed out as unconstitutional. I.e., the SCOTUS would stomp on them for giving black voters too little opportunity to elect black legislators. You can patch that up by including a "fairness" criterion in the function you're optimizing for, to limit the extent to which the result is different from proportional representation. It turns out that's NP-complete too. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.08905.pdf

Here's a good overview of auto-redistricting's current state of the art. https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cg.../viewcontent.cgi?article=1026&context=djclpp"
 
So who says it's NP-hard? That would imply it's at least well-defined. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard's_theorem

Even if you are able to produce a formal definition of "optimum", you probably can't specify an algorithm for optimizing your preferred cost function that isn't susceptible to being gamed, for example by users choosing in what order to enter the data about who lives where.

I was defining optimum as having the minimum border area.
Yes, it's NP-complete. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6688/7e10c3c3e0c7ac1f44030176c667fcc786e3.pdf

(Specifically, I'm assuming you mean the minimum border length subject to the equal population requirement. We can certainly efficiently minimize border length alone -- we just make all but one district infinitesimally small.) Altman doesn't actually use border length -- there are many ways to formalize compactness and he picked one of the others -- but they're all NP-complete, because equalizing populations among districts is already NP-complete all by itself, even without a compactness constraint.

Without the boundary constraint there are a nearly infinite number of equal solutions. You could do it by pencil and paper.

Another issue is that if you enacted a simple minimum border length criterion, then the algorithm would ignore communities of common interest, so it'd tend to split up minority-majority regions, which means the districts you'd get would very probably be tossed out as unconstitutional. I.e., the SCOTUS would stomp on them for giving black voters too little opportunity to elect black legislators. You can patch that up by including a "fairness" criterion in the function you're optimizing for, to limit the extent to which the result is different from proportional representation. It turns out that's NP-complete too. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1808.08905.pdf

Here's a good overview of auto-redistricting's current state of the art. https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cg.../viewcontent.cgi?article=1026&context=djclpp"

Minority-majority districts are a form of gerrymandering, of course my solution gets rid of them. I don't see that as a problem.
 
Our current (mostly unregulated) method of drawing district lines is exactly like me being able to calibrate my own speedometer, which is used to determine if I am speeding or not. Funny thing is, it reads -50 mph when I am sitting at a stop sign. Well, sitting still is not what cars are for, so my calibration is fully defensible.
 
Yes, it's NP-complete. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6688/7e10c3c3e0c7ac1f44030176c667fcc786e3.pdf

(Specifically, I'm assuming you mean the minimum border length subject to the equal population requirement. We can certainly efficiently minimize border length alone -- we just make all but one district infinitesimally small.) Altman doesn't actually use border length -- there are many ways to formalize compactness and he picked one of the others -- but they're all NP-complete, because equalizing populations among districts is already NP-complete all by itself, even without a compactness constraint.

Without the boundary constraint there are a nearly infinite number of equal solutions. You could do it by pencil and paper.
I think you're assuming complete information about where people live. Actual redistricting uses census data, which comes in blocks of dozens of people. Just answering the question "Does there exist a partition of blocks that makes the partitions equal to within N people?" is NP-complete, even without requiring partitions to be contiguous. It's a variety of the knapsack problem.

Minority-majority districts are a form of gerrymandering, of course my solution gets rid of them. I don't see that as a problem.
I understand that you see it as a feature, not a bug, because racial gerrymandering opens the door to corrupt self-dealing design of safe seats for incumbents. But the Supreme Court will see a 30% black state with an all-white legislature as a bug, not a feature. Unless you can reprogram the Supreme Court, your computer's output won't be implemented. Simply abolishing geographical districts is a better solution.
 
It actually isn't too hard to draw up districts. PA was able to do it real quick, and the bitter gerrymandering was erased. The districting in Ohio was fair prior to the Republicans completely stealing 2 to 4 seats.

The unfortunate issue is that even redistricting is becoming overly politicized, more so by the GOP (Ohio, Michigan, North Carolina, formerly Pennsylvania, Texas) than the Dems (Maryland). So much that the 6.8% popular vote victory for the Republicans in 2010 led to a 63 House seat gain, where as the Democrat 8.6% popular vote victory in 2018 led to a 41 House seat gain.
 
Anyone who doesn't think majority/minority districts are a problem need to look at this image:

KENSOBMKNQ7ILKFUNRZ2H6JPWA.png


From here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ing-you-will-ever-see/?utm_term=.a9476831e5fa
 
The whole business of single member districts is fraught with problems. In the 'Perfect Representation' diagram (above), all five seats are safe seats. In the 'Compact but unfair; diagram, all five seats are marginals.

The first case is a recipe for a representative who rules for life. Incumbency is unassailable, and he need care not one whit for the people of his district. He can be as corrupt as he pleases, and the environment created in that distribution favours the election of self serving arseholes who do the bare minimum for the people they are supposed to represent.

The second case is in many ways better than the first. Sure, the red voters don't have any representation today - but the five blue representatives all know that they have to keep the support of all of their base, or risk losing all five seats to red at the next election. These representatives need to hand out the pork. They need to consider every action they take through the filter not of 'does this benefit me personally', but of 'does this improve my popularity with the voters'. But equally obviously, it's deeply unfair to the red voters that they are unrepresented. And there are other issues - the government may change hands frequently (whether that's good or bad is something of a matter of opinion).

IMO, it's far better to have a distribution that looks like number 2 (above), but with multiple member districts. If there are five reps per district, then the outcome in all three distributions is 20 red and 30 blue representatives. Obviously that doesn't work for a district of 50 people; But that's just a matter of multiplying up the population - if each square represents not one, but 100,000 voters, then you have 50 representatives, at ten per district, with 20,000 voters per district, and 2,000 per representative. In all cases other than option 1, voters in every district have at least one representative from their preferred party who they can approach with issues, grievances, suggestions and complaints.

Of course, such a system will also allow for the emergence of representation for minor parties. If you have five spots, each needing only 1,001 votes to win, rather than one spot which needs to command 10,001 votes to win, you could easily see two red, two blue and one green representative for some of these districts.

This system is what the UK uses to choose Members of the European Parliament. They select multiple representatives per district, in that case using the D'Hondt system (known in the US as the Jefferson method) to select candidates from party lists.

The same system was used for elections to the US House of Representatives until 1842.
 
The whole business of single member districts is fraught with problems. In the 'Perfect Representation' diagram (above), all five seats are safe seats. In the 'Compact but unfair; diagram, all five seats are marginals.

The first case is a recipe for a representative who rules for life. Incumbency is unassailable, and he need care not one whit for the people of his district. He can be as corrupt as he pleases, and the environment created in that distribution favours the election of self serving arseholes who do the bare minimum for the people they are supposed to represent.

The second case is in many ways better than the first. Sure, the red voters don't have any representation today - but the five blue representatives all know that they have to keep the support of all of their base, or risk losing all five seats to red at the next election. These representatives need to hand out the pork. They need to consider every action they take through the filter not of 'does this benefit me personally', but of 'does this improve my popularity with the voters'. But equally obviously, it's deeply unfair to the red voters that they are unrepresented. And there are other issues - the government may change hands frequently (whether that's good or bad is something of a matter of opinion).

IMO, it's far better to have a distribution that looks like number 2 (above), but with multiple member districts. If there are five reps per district, then the outcome in all three distributions is 20 red and 30 blue representatives. Obviously that doesn't work for a district of 50 people; But that's just a matter of multiplying up the population - if each square represents not one, but 100,000 voters, then you have 50 representatives, at ten per district, with 20,000 voters per district, and 2,000 per representative. In all cases other than option 1, voters in every district have at least one representative from their preferred party who they can approach with issues, grievances, suggestions and complaints.

Of course, such a system will also allow for the emergence of representation for minor parties. If you have five spots, each needing only 1,001 votes to win, rather than one spot which needs to command 10,001 votes to win, you could easily see two red, two blue and one green representative for some of these districts.

This system is what the UK uses to choose Members of the European Parliament. They select multiple representatives per district, in that case using the D'Hondt system (known in the US as the Jefferson method) to select candidates from party lists.

The same system was used for elections to the US House of Representatives until 1842.

Well said! One nitpick: If there are five reps per district, then the outcome in all three distributions is 20 red and 30 blue representatives. Obviously that doesn't work for a district of 50 people, but it's great for civic involvement! :p
 
I think you're assuming complete information about where people live. Actual redistricting uses census data, which comes in blocks of dozens of people. Just answering the question "Does there exist a partition of blocks that makes the partitions equal to within N people?" is NP-complete, even without requiring partitions to be contiguous. It's a variety of the knapsack problem.

Doesn't the census data record how many live in each location in that block, though? While in theory it's a knapsack problem you're selecting a very large number of small objects from the knapsack, a degenerate case that shouldn't be NP-hard.

If the problem actually is intractable there's a reasonable shortcut that certainly isn't: Divide the state up into regions using a minimum of boundary area. Consider every pair of adjoining districts--can we move one chunk of population from the district with a higher number of people to the one with a lower number? If so, move the chunk that results in the minimum border area and ends up with a more even result. Go on to the next pair of districts. Repeat until you get through with no moves. This requires defining the order in which the districts are to be compared as you would end up with a different final result if you did your comparisons in a different order.

Minority-majority districts are a form of gerrymandering, of course my solution gets rid of them. I don't see that as a problem.
I understand that you see it as a feature, not a bug, because racial gerrymandering opens the door to corrupt self-dealing design of safe seats for incumbents. But the Supreme Court will see a 30% black state with an all-white legislature as a bug, not a feature. Unless you can reprogram the Supreme Court, your computer's output won't be implemented. Simply abolishing geographical districts is a better solution.

It is the design of safe seats for members of the group thus protected, 100% pure gerrymandering. I don't believe you can divide gerrymandering into good and bad.

And note that it would only result in a 30% black state with a pure white government if something like 2/3 of the whites were voting on purely racial lines. If this actually happened Obama would not have been elected.
 
Doesn't the census data record how many live in each location in that block, though?
Not the published data, to my knowledge. I haven't heard of any available redistricting programs that draw lines through individual census blocks, and they probably would if the census bureau made the data available. Whether the census bureau keeps track of that information internally, I don't know.

While in theory it's a knapsack problem you're selecting a very large number of small objects from the knapsack, a degenerate case that shouldn't be NP-hard.
I don't think that helps. Regardless of how you define "close enough to equal" there will be exponentially many combinations right on the border between equal enough and not quite equal enough. In any event, other compactness criteria than yours, such as the "minimize the maximum radius" criterion, have been proven NP-complete by themselves; it would be pretty surprising if the minimum border length criterion were different.

If the problem actually is intractable there's a reasonable shortcut that certainly isn't: Divide the state up into regions using a minimum of boundary area. Consider every pair of adjoining districts--can we move one chunk of population from the district with a higher number of people to the one with a lower number? If so, move the chunk that results in the minimum border area and ends up with a more even result. Go on to the next pair of districts. Repeat until you get through with no moves. This requires defining the order in which the districts are to be compared as you would end up with a different final result if you did your comparisons in a different order.
Aye, there's the rub. You're proposing a greedy algorithm, and those are almost sure to get trapped in local minima when they're used on hard combinatorial problems. But which local minima? When you no longer have global optimality to protect you, your system becomes susceptible to being gamed. Whichever engineer defines the order of comparisons, or the procedure for discretizing your initial floating-point boundary minimization, or the heuristics used to approximate the minimal unconstrained boundary length in the first place, (assuming that problem is NP-complete which it probably is), or any number of other practical engineering decisions that will go into creating the official district-drawing program, will have an enormous variety of options for making all those decisions. However he makes the decisions, he will of course come up with a perfectly reasonable-sounding story for why they went the way they did. But what assurance can the rest of us have that he didn't write forty different versions of his program, test them all, pick whichever one gave the best results for his party or for his favorite legislator, and then quietly delete the other thirty-nine before announcing that the software was ready?

I understand that you see it as a feature, not a bug, because racial gerrymandering opens the door to corrupt self-dealing design of safe seats for incumbents. But the Supreme Court will see a 30% black state with an all-white legislature as a bug, not a feature. Unless you can reprogram the Supreme Court, your computer's output won't be implemented. Simply abolishing geographical districts is a better solution.

It is the design of safe seats for members of the group thus protected, 100% pure gerrymandering. I don't believe you can divide gerrymandering into good and bad.
I meant safe seats for identifiable individuals, but if you want to expand the concept, suit yourself. Your legality problem remains.

And note that it would only result in a 30% black state with a pure white government if something like 2/3 of the whites were voting on purely racial lines. If this actually happened Obama would not have been elected.
That doesn't follow at all. All that would need to happen to get an all-white legislature is a state with a solid overall Republican voting majority, plus the district boundaries being unrelated to party preference contour lines and therefore typically more or less orthogonal to them, thus resulting in no Democrat-majority districts, much like picture 2 in post #51 -- plus all the black would-be-legislators choosing to run as Democrats. When the SCOTUS decided racial gerrymandering was necessary in order to let black voters elect black legislators, they weren't being idiots. They were looking at the numbers.

Abolish the districts. Then if the black voters want to mostly vote along racial lines and get black representatives, they'll be able to. But if they instead decide color doesn't matter, and they'd rather split up and ally themselves respectively with white free-traders or with white protectionists, and elect one free-trader legislator and one protectionist legislator of whatever color, they'll be able to do that too. That's how representation is supposed to work.
 
Not the published data, to my knowledge. I haven't heard of any available redistricting programs that draw lines through individual census blocks, and they probably would if the census bureau made the data available. Whether the census bureau keeps track of that information internally, I don't know.

The data most certainly isn't published for privacy reasons. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't think that helps. Regardless of how you define "close enough to equal" there will be exponentially many combinations right on the border between equal enough and not quite equal enough. In any event, other compactness criteria than yours, such as the "minimize the maximum radius" criterion, have been proven NP-complete by themselves; it would be pretty surprising if the minimum border length criterion were different.

The general case certainly is NP-hard. The thing is here we have a whole bunch of tiny units rather than a few big units. We don't have to try every case because so many are the same and in many cases we can get an optimum answer anyway.

If the problem actually is intractable there's a reasonable shortcut that certainly isn't: Divide the state up into regions using a minimum of boundary area. Consider every pair of adjoining districts--can we move one chunk of population from the district with a higher number of people to the one with a lower number? If so, move the chunk that results in the minimum border area and ends up with a more even result. Go on to the next pair of districts. Repeat until you get through with no moves. This requires defining the order in which the districts are to be compared as you would end up with a different final result if you did your comparisons in a different order.
Aye, there's the rub. You're proposing a greedy algorithm, and those are almost sure to get trapped in local minima when they're used on hard combinatorial problems. But which local minima? When you no longer have global optimality to protect you, your system becomes susceptible to being gamed. Whichever engineer defines the order of comparisons, or the procedure for discretizing your initial floating-point boundary minimization, or the heuristics used to approximate the minimal unconstrained boundary length in the first place, (assuming that problem is NP-complete which it probably is), or any number of other practical engineering decisions that will go into creating the official district-drawing program, will have an enormous variety of options for making all those decisions. However he makes the decisions, he will of course come up with a perfectly reasonable-sounding story for why they went the way they did. But what assurance can the rest of us have that he didn't write forty different versions of his program, test them all, pick whichever one gave the best results for his party or for his favorite legislator, and then quietly delete the other thirty-nine before announcing that the software was ready?

That's why you need to define starting points--ensure everyone trying it ends up in the same trap.

I understand that you see it as a feature, not a bug, because racial gerrymandering opens the door to corrupt self-dealing design of safe seats for incumbents. But the Supreme Court will see a 30% black state with an all-white legislature as a bug, not a feature. Unless you can reprogram the Supreme Court, your computer's output won't be implemented. Simply abolishing geographical districts is a better solution.

It is the design of safe seats for members of the group thus protected, 100% pure gerrymandering. I don't believe you can divide gerrymandering into good and bad.
I meant safe seats for identifiable individuals, but if you want to expand the concept, suit yourself. Your legality problem remains.

Safe seats for a party, safe seats for a race. How is one good and the other bad?

Abolish the districts. Then if the black voters want to mostly vote along racial lines and get black representatives, they'll be able to. But if they instead decide color doesn't matter, and they'd rather split up and ally themselves respectively with white free-traders or with white protectionists, and elect one free-trader legislator and one protectionist legislator of whatever color, they'll be able to do that too. That's how representation is supposed to work.

While I see your point this makes the parties even more powerful, something I don't like.
 
Safe seats for a party, safe seats for a race. How is one good and the other bad?
Hey, I'm not the one to ask -- I think we should abolish election districts altogether so of course I don't believe there's "good gerrymandering". I'm just passing on what the Supreme Court says. I'm not claiming your proposed reform isn't an improvement, only that the prospects for getting it put in place are nil.

While I see your point this makes the parties even more powerful, something I don't like.
Well, it does if we use classic party-list proportional representation. But I'd think something like single-transferable-vote would put the voters rather than the parties in the drivers' seat.

...When you no longer have global optimality to protect you, your system becomes susceptible to being gamed. ... But what assurance can the rest of us have that he didn't write forty different versions of his program, test them all, pick whichever one gave the best results for his party or for his favorite legislator, and then quietly delete the other thirty-nine before announcing that the software was ready?

That's why you need to define starting points--ensure everyone trying it ends up in the same trap.
Oh, okay, that works. If I define the starting points then I can ensure that the system wasn't gamed. Actually, so can everyone else. Everyone who's ever read any of my programs can testify that I'm too downright lazy to write forty different versions of my program.
 
Hey, I'm not the one to ask -- I think we should abolish election districts altogether so of course I don't believe there's "good gerrymandering". I'm just passing on what the Supreme Court says. I'm not claiming your proposed reform isn't an improvement, only that the prospects for getting it put in place are nil.


Well, it does if we use classic party-list proportional representation. But I'd think something like single-transferable-vote would put the voters rather than the parties in the drivers' seat.

Yes, I favor single transferable vote.

...When you no longer have global optimality to protect you, your system becomes susceptible to being gamed. ... But what assurance can the rest of us have that he didn't write forty different versions of his program, test them all, pick whichever one gave the best results for his party or for his favorite legislator, and then quietly delete the other thirty-nine before announcing that the software was ready?

That's why you need to define starting points--ensure everyone trying it ends up in the same trap.
Oh, okay, that works. If I define the starting points then I can ensure that the system wasn't gamed. Actually, so can everyone else. Everyone who's ever read any of my programs can testify that I'm too downright lazy to write forty different versions of my program.

Formula-defined points, not arbitrary points.

For example, city hall of the x (number of districts) largest cities in the state.
 
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