Anti-homeless spikes and other 'defensive urban architecture'

[fast]

There was a time when physically handicapped persons were placed out of sight. It was such a discomfort to some to have to see and even be in contact with them. Out of sight, out of mind. Of course , we have come a long way. But we still have a long way to go when it comes to our willingness to provide shelter, food and basic resources to our fellow human beings know as homeless. We dismiss them as fellows. We are not like them. And god forbid we would ever place ourselves in any situations where we would stoop down to their level. We are way too dignified to ever reach the point of depending on a homeless shelter and a soup kitchen.

Some of us even expect them to follow the same rules and social fitness as ours. Might as well expect a feral cat to behave like our typical house cat, well fed, well cared for, well protected, well loved and if not loved at least the minimum of being well liked.

So, some of us have decided to drive homeless people away. Out of sight, out of mind. We can then enjoy that first sip of a cappuccino we paid 6 bucks for, on a cold morning, without the sight of a homeless person shivering on a bench disturbing our moment. We can enjoy our cities while they keep up the appearance of the absence of human misery. We drive human misery away. Out of sight, out of mind.

We then can ignore the ugliness of our own humanity. Homeless persons are not hanging around anymore to tickle our conscience into the knowledge that we could make a difference ...but we do not want to. Out of sight, out of mind, out of our conscience.

I met a girl that is quite compassionate, almost (I sometimes think) overly so. I'm a caring person, but I'm also a little bit too quick to put on an uncaring face, but I like being around people that are caring, and I think it helps me to not be quite so quick to put on that uncaring face. Maybe some of us have become hardened, but I'd bet that not everyone with the appearance of being hardened are without the same compassion--just not so quick to act on it given the life experiences that make some of us that way.

 

[arkirk]

Hey, here's an idea: how about instead of using spikes to combat homelessness you use, oh, I don't know, homes?

treating human beings like human beings?

You ANARCHIST!

I don't know what's wrong with ksen. He keeps coming up with softie solutions when we know we ought to be kicking them bums down the street...

Seriously, when I looked at some of that anti homeless gear, it appeared to be rather expensive...perhaps more costly than a safe indoor resting place at least for homeless people.

 

[RavenSky]

If you don't like the stench of the homeless, install shower heads. Better even, slyly lure them away from the benches. With homes, or at least small rooms with the space for a cot and hardly anything more (if you're penny wise--or penny cheap).

An Extreme (But Effective) Way To Get Rid Of Homelessness: http://www.upworthy.com/its-an-extreme-but-effective-way-to-get-rid-of-homelessness?c=ufb1

 

[RavenSky]

love it!

 

[credoconsolans]

I have in the past. I stopped when I was offered abusive or obscene comments and invitations and others drooled while they tried to speak to me.

Shouldn't that lead you to wanting to put things in place to help them instead of putting things in place to shoot spikes into their bodies?

As far as I understood, the spikes were already there, not shooting up unexpectedly. Acting much like spikes on a fence - stay out. Which is something we all understand and do not find unusual.

Not necessarily. Athena thinks that homeless men who tell me obscene things and the things they want to sexually do to me, must make me want to help them.

No, it makes me want to tell them to fuck off, like I do to any rude or obnoxious and possibly sexually dangerous person.

Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're street fairies, sweet and innocent and helpless or incapable of acting like a decent human being. Someone has been watching the Fisher King too many times.

The man talking to me while drooling spit the whole time was a very bad drunk. The gods know what he was drinking by them. Ever wonder why some of the homeless aren't in shelters? They don't want to stop drinking or taking drugs. Which the shelters don't allow.

Addicts basically. What can be done to help them? Nothing, until they want to help themselves. The people who want to be helped, are being helped as much as funding allows.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I have in the past. I stopped when I was offered abusive or obscene comments and invitations and others drooled while they tried to speak to me.

Shouldn't that lead you to wanting to put things in place to help them instead of putting things in place to shoot spikes into their bodies?

As far as I understood, the spikes were already there, not shooting up unexpectedly. Acting much like spikes on a fence - stay out. Which is something we all understand and do not find unusual.

Not necessarily. Athena thinks that homeless men who tell me obscene things and the things they want to sexually do to me, must make me want to help them.

If compassion were to be earned or deserved, it would not be compassion, would it?

No, it makes me want to tell them to fuck off, like I do to any rude or obnoxious and possibly sexually dangerous person.

I can understand that.

Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're street fairies, sweet and innocent and helpless or incapable of acting like a decent human being. Someone has been watching the Fisher King too many times.

The man talking to me while drooling spit the whole time was a very bad drunk. The gods know what he was drinking by them. Ever wonder why some of the homeless aren't in shelters? They don't want to stop drinking or taking drugs. Which the shelters don't allow.

Addicts basically. What can be done to help them? Nothing, until they want to help themselves. The people who want to be helped, are being helped as much as funding allows.

When it comes to the phenomenon of addictive substance abuse, there is an important distinction which needs to be made regarding addicted homeless persons. What motivated an addicted individual to come out of their gutter is when they realize that the pain of loss is greater than the perceived gain. Well, homeless folks have already lost everything. They certainly cannot motivate themselves by thinking about the pain of losing their spouse or children. Or losing their employment and their home as the result of their addiction.

Interestingly, organized groups reaching out to the specific category of substance abuse addicted homeless persons are usually manned by individuals who are recovered addicts (drugs or alcohol). They naturally experience empathy as a result and are not driven away by the "very bad drunk". They are very familiar with the loss of human dignity because they experienced it. They know which dynamics are at play. They do not give up on the "very bad drunk".

Switzerland did not give up on its ratio of drug addicted homeless persons. They took the very progressive measure to draw them into the system by providing them with drugs under a controlled environment. The condition being that such persons enrolled in the program do not use streets drugs any longer. It is an interesting out reach program and it is working. Once into the system, the dependency is then controlled by the system aiming to motivate rehabilitation and further social and economic reinsertion.

However, my being aware of "American exceptionalism", I am certainly not holding my breath on ever seeing your government emulating measures taken in Switzerland.

 

[credoconsolans]

I have in the past. I stopped when I was offered abusive or obscene comments and invitations and others drooled while they tried to speak to me.

Shouldn't that lead you to wanting to put things in place to help them instead of putting things in place to shoot spikes into their bodies?

As far as I understood, the spikes were already there, not shooting up unexpectedly. Acting much like spikes on a fence - stay out. Which is something we all understand and do not find unusual.

Not necessarily. Athena thinks that homeless men who tell me obscene things and the things they want to sexually do to me, must make me want to help them.

If compassion were to be earned or deserved, it would not be compassion, would it?

I have all the compassion in the world. Giving assistance is something else.

Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're street fairies, sweet and innocent and helpless or incapable of acting like a decent human being. Someone has been watching the Fisher King too many times.

The man talking to me while drooling spit the whole time was a very bad drunk. The gods know what he was drinking by them. Ever wonder why some of the homeless aren't in shelters? They don't want to stop drinking or taking drugs. Which the shelters don't allow.

Addicts basically. What can be done to help them? Nothing, until they want to help themselves. The people who want to be helped, are being helped as much as funding allows.

When it comes to the phenomenon of addictive substance abuse, there is an important distinction which needs to be made regarding addicted homeless persons. What motivated an addicted individual to come out of their gutter is when they realize that the pain of loss is greater than the perceived gain. Well, homeless folks have already lost everything. They certainly cannot motivate themselves by thinking about the pain of losing their spouse or children. Or losing their employment and their home as the result of their addiction.

Interestingly, organized groups reaching out to the specific category of substance abuse addicted homeless persons are usually manned by individuals who are recovered addicts (drugs or alcohol). They naturally experience empathy as a result and are not driven away by the "very bad drunk". They are very familiar with the loss of human dignity because they experienced it. They know which dynamics are at play. They do not give up on the "very bad drunk".

Switzerland did not give up on its ratio of drug addicted homeless persons. They took the very progressive measure to draw them into the system by providing them with drugs under a controlled environment. The condition being that such persons enrolled in the program do not use streets drugs any longer. It is an interesting out reach program and it is working. Once into the system, the dependency is then controlled by the system aiming to motivate rehabilitation and further social and economic reinsertion.

However, my being aware of "American exceptionalism", I am certainly not holding my breath on ever seeing your government emulating measures taken in Switzerland.

Wasn't the actor Hugh Jackman in Switzerland recently? He was and he gave an very amusing speech in which he described how he traveled there as a young man to find his roots, and he was traveling on a very thin budget. So much so, he spent time sleeping in public places. His amusing quote to the Swiss was "Remember that bum in the gutter you kicked? That was me."

The Swiss have the same problem Americans do. Some homeless do not want people or the government telling them what to do.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

credoconsolans

I will say what I think. You need not try to read my mind. You will get it wrong everytime.

Homeless men said bad things to you. And?

They are the ones who as homeless and will die years before their time and live miserably before they do. You don't have to take them home as pets, but you don't have to hate on them either.

 

[Sabine Grant]

I have in the past. I stopped when I was offered abusive or obscene comments and invitations and others drooled while they tried to speak to me.

Shouldn't that lead you to wanting to put things in place to help them instead of putting things in place to shoot spikes into their bodies?

As far as I understood, the spikes were already there, not shooting up unexpectedly. Acting much like spikes on a fence - stay out. Which is something we all understand and do not find unusual.

Not necessarily. Athena thinks that homeless men who tell me obscene things and the things they want to sexually do to me, must make me want to help them.

If compassion were to be earned or deserved, it would not be compassion, would it?

I have all the compassion in the world. Giving assistance is something else.

I guess I should have been more detailed in my reply to your statement and add that not only compassion is not supposed to be earned or deserved but if not acted on, what is the value of feeling compassion but not acting on it?

The above addressing " make me want to help them". As if the object of our compassion is expected to "make us want to help them".

Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're street fairies, sweet and innocent and helpless or incapable of acting like a decent human being. Someone has been watching the Fisher King too many times.

The man talking to me while drooling spit the whole time was a very bad drunk. The gods know what he was drinking by them. Ever wonder why some of the homeless aren't in shelters? They don't want to stop drinking or taking drugs. Which the shelters don't allow.

Addicts basically. What can be done to help them? Nothing, until they want to help themselves. The people who want to be helped, are being helped as much as funding allows.

When it comes to the phenomenon of addictive substance abuse, there is an important distinction which needs to be made regarding addicted homeless persons. What motivated an addicted individual to come out of their gutter is when they realize that the pain of loss is greater than the perceived gain. Well, homeless folks have already lost everything. They certainly cannot motivate themselves by thinking about the pain of losing their spouse or children. Or losing their employment and their home as the result of their addiction.

Interestingly, organized groups reaching out to the specific category of substance abuse addicted homeless persons are usually manned by individuals who are recovered addicts (drugs or alcohol). They naturally experience empathy as a result and are not driven away by the "very bad drunk". They are very familiar with the loss of human dignity because they experienced it. They know which dynamics are at play. They do not give up on the "very bad drunk".

Switzerland did not give up on its ratio of drug addicted homeless persons. They took the very progressive measure to draw them into the system by providing them with drugs under a controlled environment. The condition being that such persons enrolled in the program do not use streets drugs any longer. It is an interesting out reach program and it is working. Once into the system, the dependency is then controlled by the system aiming to motivate rehabilitation and further social and economic reinsertion.

However, my being aware of "American exceptionalism", I am certainly not holding my breath on ever seeing your government emulating measures taken in Switzerland.

Wasn't the actor Hugh Jackman in Switzerland recently? He was and he gave an very amusing speech in which he described how he traveled there as a young man to find his roots, and he was traveling on a very thin budget. So much so, he spent time sleeping in public places. His amusing quote to the Swiss was "Remember that bum in the gutter you kicked? That was me."

The Swiss have the same problem Americans do. Some homeless do not want people or the government telling them what to do.

You seem to have missed the point that the Swiss program provides an incentive to drug addicted homeless persons to enter a system aiming towards progressive weening, rehab and social and economical reinsertion. Need I detail why it is an incentive for them to be able to have access to drugs and in a much safer environment than struggling to obtain them off the streets?

 

[pegasus8]

Notice the people here acting all tough in how "they" would deal with the homeless. Yeh right dudes and dudettes!

Those of us who actually had to deal with homeless people day in and day out see things differently. Homeless people are a huge problem in America today. Try having a retail business surrounded by 100's of homeless people who are active in the morning and night. The point is when you actually have to deal with homeless bullies, crazies, thieves, etc., just to keep your customers happy and safe then you really need to apply "practical" solutions. If you go all "Rambo" like some Walter Mittys here, those that talk all tough on the homeless yet rarely have to deal with them, then this can and does backfire on you. How to you deal with people going through you trash bins all day and night? You can not keep your trash locked all the time. How do you deal with people hanging out in front of your business during open hours?

San Francisco just installed this "no sitting " ordinance to try to alleviate the homeless problem for retail shops. Yet this involves the cops who are already stretched thin. I do not know if it is still an ordinance on the books. You can hire help or professional security to muscle the homeless stench away from your place but this can get $$ expensive. It does not take much to get into a "confrontation " with the homeless over the stupidest stuff. What is stopping some wretched bum from throwing a rock through your front windows that cost big bucks to replace; and this is with window insurance.

As "defensive architecture" I am guilty of drilling holes in front one of my stores and putting in lead anchors. Them all I did was screw in lag bolts, big ones when the scatters started to use my place to do tricks. When the sk8ters split and moved down the road I simply unscrewed them and everything was back to normal. You can not use up some of your precious time confronting people, homeless and sk8ters all the time. You will never make it because your time is more valuable then $$ money!

So what can one do to help this homeless problem? This is what I did.

- donate money and or frozen meat items to the local Gospel Mission or Salvation Army.
-get some of the repeat homeless small jobs to gain their respect and get some well earned cash in their hands. Jobs like passing our fliers, picking up trash, putting away loads, etc.
-"asking " the homeless to please not hang around the markets, do not dumpster dive, do not piss in the alley, etc. Note the ask and please proposition of the request. Believe it or not most homeless people will move down the road if you just simply ask them!
- personally give the homeless some hot food or cold drinks and ice during summer and then asking them to move along.
- telling them that you know the cops real good and they will haul their ass to jail if they do not move on.
- taking their pictures and telling them that you will continue this and you will give these pictures to someone who has special skills.
- have plenty of warning signage and the city/county municipal laws so you can clearly show them that they are breaking the law.
- get to know all, most, of the homeless people in your area so you can build up an "understanding and consensus," between you and them. At lot of the homeless know each other and communicate in their groups; getting known as a "cool" business owner will help your homeless problem.

And of course if all of the above does not work then you can get creative like;
- telling them once to get the hell out of dodge "or else!"
-Putting rat poison and other chemicals around the alleys and trash and then warn them about the dangers; wasp and fly bait works good.
- paying a couple of big dudes some cash to beat them up, " just a little," to scare them and or to persuade them to move on.
- always offer the "wreath of peace" first and foremost. If they refuse the peace offering then it is on and your conscious is clear! But remember you have more to lose then they do.

So you have both positive and negative "reinforcement" in dealing with the homeless. As for the city and or state we need more social programs and not less in dealing with this huge modern day problem. And most of us know that there will always be homeless people no matter what you do. IMO it is how you deal with them both short term and long term that actually helps.

But those spikes on the park benches! Ouch and WTF? Can one imagine if they could charge for air like in "Total Recall?"
And never give homeless people cash unless they do work for you!!!!!! Sometimes they can be like rats. You give them an inch or look weak and them BAM! It is hobo junction in the back of you business.

If anyone, anyone ever ass you for change, cash, help, etc., just look at them and say," does it say Bank of America on my forehead?"

Peace

Pegasus

 

[laughing dog]

Some homeless do not want people or the government telling them what to do.

What exactly is your point? You do realize that there people who live in homes who do not want people or the gov't telling them what to do.

 

[Cobalt]

credoconsolans

I will say what I think. You need not try to read my mind. You will get it wrong everytime.

Homeless men said bad things to you. And?

Let's not worry about mind reading, let's just actually read the thread. ksen had suggested that talking with street people would make credoconsolans want to help them. I think it is pretty fair to say that the reportedly obscene and abusive things those particular people said makes credo rather indisposed to provide the help that ksen seems to think is called for. I would venture to say that is the "and".

They are the ones who as homeless and will die years before their time and live miserably before they do. You don't have to take them home as pets, but you don't have to hate on them either.

Hating on them? Are you trying your hand at mind reading now?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Let's not worry about mind reading, let's just actually read the thread. ksen had suggested that talking with street people would make credoconsolans want to help them. I think it is pretty fair to say that the reportedly obscene and abusive things those particular people said makes credo rather indisposed to provide the help that ksen seems to think is called for. I would venture to say that is the "and".

They are the ones who as homeless and will die years before their time and live miserably before they do. You don't have to take them home as pets, but you don't have to hate on them either.

Hating on them? Are you trying your hand at mind reading now?

Not necessarily. Athena thinks that homeless men who tell me obscene things and the things they want to sexually do to me, must make me want to help them.

No, it makes me want to tell them to fuck off, like I do to any rude or obnoxious and possibly sexually dangerous person.
Just because they're homeless doesn't mean they're street fairies, sweet and innocent and helpless or incapable of acting like a decent human being. Someone has been watching the Fisher King too many times.



this is not mind reading. This is reading a post by someone who doesn't like someone else.

street life demands its denizens live in ways that don't jive with polite society. This doesn't mean that you can or should ignore dangerous behavior but it doesn't mean you get ignore your own humanity and decency when dealing with the actual people. taking a general attitude that because a homeless person or even every homeless person on the face of the earth drooled and said disgusting things to me, then I get to add to the incivility of the world directed toward people who are living in a different world than "regular" people and its ok to develop practices that further dehumanize to these people, is not cool.

 

[ksen]

ksen had suggested that talking with street people would make credoconsolans want to help them.

I did?

I think it is pretty fair to say that the reportedly obscene and abusive things those particular people said makes credo rather indisposed to provide the help that ksen seems to think is called for.

Because we should only provide help to those who don't make us feel uncomfortable?

 

[Sabine Grant]

IMO when it comes to folks who have it very rough such as some of our homeless population, it is unreasonable to place on them expectations of "making us want to help them" as the condition to help them. That is why I brought up compassion earlier. As we act on compassion, we do not place expectations on the fellow human being we are trying to help.

However part of our shared humanity is to react to how that fellow human being behaves towards us. Are we more motivated to help a neighbor in need who has been pleasant and sociable? Do we not shy away from the neighbor in need who has been a grumpy pain in the butt?

Further, our instinct of self preservation and resulting self protecting is going to kick in when in a situation like Credo described and that alone may very well cause us to distance ourselves from whom we identify as a threat to us.

When living in Sacramento, my husband would occasionally invite homeless persons to spend the night in his home and treat them for a meal. No matter how much empathy he had for homeless persons, at some point of time he ended his endeavor to host them. The point of time was when he realized they would steal various items from his home. Self preservation/protection kicked in.

 

[Jarhyn]

And I keep saying, and will do so until anti-humanitarian douchebags get it: either shut up and spend the resources to help the homeless and FIX the problem, or campaign to euthanize them. Harassing them and kicking them to a less visible place solves nothing; it just means our lives get worse so that they can suffer before they freeze to death or starve. Either be a good person, or if you are going to be a monster, be as gentle as you can with it. Right now you're only succeeding at being the most vile kind of asshole possible: one who leaves others to suffer and die, often enough just due to mere bad luck.

 

[Angry Floof]

I keep hearing on facebook that the spikes are being removed due to outpouring of criticism, but these are the only sources I can find to support it so far:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/13/london-spikes-removed_n_5492681.html
http://mashable.com/2014/06/12/anti-homeless-spikes-london/

It's pretty astounding that municipalities and corporations that normally seek to make premises as safe as possible (mainly to keep from being sued) would purposely implement measures that could seriously harm homeless people. I guess the homeless would have a hard time suing...? Anyway, fuck the individuals who made these decisions and those who were "just doing their job" in going along with the implementation.

 

[ksen]

u know who else was just doing their jobs?

Nazis.

yeah, Nazis.

 

[Sabine Grant]

Ksen, as you too live in Florida, you might be aware of the measures taken by the City of Tampa in their effort to camouflage the fact that Tampa is listed among the 25 cities worldwide with an extremely high population of homeless persons (7,419). That camouflage is motivated by the need of the municipality to keep up the appearance of a stable economy bound to draw conventions and the flow of international and domestic origins tourism. As a result, our homeless persons have been hit with local legislation restricting them from using any public space such as parks to spend the night. Mind you that some of the designated homeless shelters open up only during climatic events such as cold winter nights or during a tropical cyclone.

http://list25.com/25-cities-extremely-high-homeless-populations/

Given cause for such high number being "Lack of affordable housing and homeless shelters".The City of Tampa and all counties included in the Tampa Bay still struggling to recover from the 2008 real estate crash while rents indeed remain extremely high. As a result, subsidized and section 5 housing being full and with long waiting lists. Many of those folks being the casualties of foreclosures and/or loss of employment and inability to pay up a deposit and first month rent in our local market of units for rental.

While several suburbs of Tampa (such as mine, Riverview) show an improvement in new subdivisions being built, mind you that they are destined for home buyers. Not seeing any effort from our local legislators to motivate municipalities to build more Section 5 or subsidized housing.

St Petersburg (Pinellas County) engaged in taking down tent cities. Most notorious event having been in 2007 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrPdZmPB36U

 

[ksen]

I wasn't aware of that in Tampa. I'm directly across the state from you on the Atlantic side.

But I'm not surprised. Florida is a special kind of shitty state. It's very frustrating.