Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

[Toni]

By the way, as far as Bernie v. Warren and the recent "#CNNisTrash" debate are concerned:
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Elizabeth Warren is like school in Summer.

No class!

Sums it up very well. And I remember when progressives were trying to draft Warren in 2015. She wouldn't run. Sanders did. So they met him and discovered he's even better aligned with progressive values than she is, and moved on to supporting him. They noticed when she didn't support him in 2016, as he was up against corporate democrat Hillary. Now Warren's trying to cry foul about it all? Bernie Bros and Sisters indeed.

The truly hilarious part of Warren refusing the hand shake clip above is Steyer. He's just this guy who comes along to exchange plesantries after the debate as he just did with Biden and Buttigieg a second earlier, and he's very uncomfortable to witness this between Warren and Bernie LMAO Look at his eyes during the clip.

This is the most entertaining Steyer thing since he started his campaign.

There is no way that Sanders is ‘more aligned with progressive values’ than Warren is.

It’s also not contradictory for Sanders to have encouraged girls (and Warren) to run in 2016 and to now be concerned if a woman can win in 2020. A woman lost in 2016. Sanders is hardly the only person who wonders if the Dems shouldn’t go with a nice, safe, white man on 2020 because it is imperative to defeat Trump—or whoever the nominee is if he’s removed from office.

I don’t know why Warren didn’t shake hands with Bernie. I saw the look on her face when he claimed he never told her a woman couldn’t win in 2020. She was shocked and definitely had a different opinion. Note: her reaction was so visceral that I think it’s apparent that in her recollection, Bernie told her a woman couldn’t win in 2020. It wouldn’t surprise me if Bernie doesn’t recollect saying that—or if he is just trying to maintain a facade of being a champion for women. Or doesn’t want to admit any fear on the part of Dems about putting forth anything other than the most winnable candidate-/which has traditionally been a white male. It’s a conservative, cautious approach and one I respect.

Warren had just shaken hands with two other candidates. It is possible that her hands were painful. A lot of people avoid handshaking

Or she wanted to skip meaningless congratulations and get straight to the point with Bernie. If he lied about saying a woman
can’t win in 2020–and I think it’s clear that she thinks he did (and she was there) I can see why she’d be pissed.

Also, I think that Bernie, along with his bros, believes he was cheated and should have gotten the nod and would have beaten Trump. And face it: if he doesn’t run now, he never will.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

My problem is that Warren never quotes Sanders.... and leaked this out through her people. This is rather ugly. If Sanders said "A woman can't win the Presidency", then darn well quote him on it. I'm not impressed with Warren on this issue, and I've been quite cool on Warren for quite a while. Much rather make with a Klobucher (or Harris who is no longer in it). Warren talks, but she, like Sanders, doesn't have viable solutions.

Personally, I don't think Sanders can win. The socialist label will be used to crucify him, and quite successfully. if the GOP could take a Vietnam Veteran and successfully make him look like a traitor, all the while elevating the status of a Vietnam draft dodger... they'll have no trouble painting Sanders as Vladimir Lenin, especially with the pics of his trip to the Soviet Union. I don't trust the polls as much when it comes to how the general population will support Sanders. That is before WWIII is unleashed on him.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Warren shook Sanders' hand after the previous debates. It seems extremely weird for Warren to bring this up when Sanders does so well in the polls, beating her and getting more campaign funds. It's possible he said "something." He could have said something like "it's going to be very difficult for a woman to win the swing states, those districts Trump won have a lot of racism and sexism" and they both could have talked past one another after that. But even assuming that for a moment, it's still a statistical coincidence for Warren to bring it up now. I don't think that means Warren is a liar but perhaps she isn't honest to HERSELF in why she brings it up now. I find that kind of personality to be dangerous. So, this fight makes me trust BOTH of them much less when once I liked them both. Even though I am way to the left of Biden, he's starting to be of interest.

 

[Toni]

Warren shook Sanders' hand after the previous debates. It seems extremely weird for Warren to bring this up when Sanders does so well in the polls, beating her and getting more campaign funds. It's possible he said "something." He could have said something like "it's going to be very difficult for a woman to win the swing states, those districts Trump won have a lot of racism and sexism" and they both could have talked past one another after that. But even assuming that for a moment, it's still a statistical coincidence for Warren to bring it up now. I don't think that means Warren is a liar but perhaps she isn't honest to HERSELF in why she brings it up now. I find that kind of personality to be dangerous. So, this fight makes me trust BOTH of them much less when once I liked them both. Even though I am way to the left of Biden, he's starting to be of interest.

Oh I think Bernie isn’t being honest with himself. Stating, as a matter of pragmatism, that a woman couldn’t win 2020 wouldn’t be so weird or out of line. It seems to be a not uncommon fear. Women face tons of criticism that men do not. Just look at twitter and see the nasty nasty bile hurled at Warren. It’s a concern. Sexism is very very real.

I also think that Bernie —and his bros need to be honest: he doesn’t want to lose out to a woman again. Culturally it’s pretty unacceptable for a male to lose to a female—ask any woman who was better at boys in math, science, debate, chess, sports. Is it better today? Maybe. But those attitudes get baked pretty hard, especially for people who grew up before the 90’s. Given the bros, I’d say it’s still an issue to some degree. It would be a natural impulse for anyone Bernie’s age or 30 years younger, tbh. And when you really really really want something, a lot of us will pull out prejudices we never knew we had.

Being supportive of women/blacks/gay people, etc. is one thing when it’s a general idea. It’s different if you personally stand to lose. Make no bones about it: Bernie wants to be POTUS. Knives out!

It’s interesting to me that men generally accept that Warren lied—and that Bernie is incapable of holding a sexist thought in his head, poor guy. Mean old Liz didn’t shake his hand.

Women, otoh, seem quite familiar with hearing that women can’t do something—-at this time but it will be perfectly acceptable at some hypothetical time when it is more convenient to the makes telling women they need to wait until the time is right.

Think of it: if Obama had lost the first election, it would have been 20 years before it was decided that a ‘black man could win.’ However racist everybody else is for thinking such a thing.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

 

[Toni]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

My feelings toward/about Bernie are unchanged.

I think he’s lying. Or misremembering. But probably lying.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Of course you do. Your bias against him (and against men generally) has been made crystal clear. I was asking Don2.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh I think Bernie isn’t being honest with himself. Stating, as a matter of pragmatism, that a woman couldn’t win 2020 wouldn’t be so weird or out of line.

I'd say women certainly do face a more uphill battle when running for President against this asshole who is coated in Teflon. Yes, men have an uphill battle too, but women are in a position of holding a tight line of forceful, but not too forceful, opinionated, but not too opinionated... it sucks. Especially for Clinton who actually performed admirably in the debates against that chauvinistic pig. Had she fallen for any of his trolling, she'd been castigated as being too emotional... when Trump himself whined about how unfair some of the campaigning ads were against him. Trump's alpha bully crap carries and it is hard to cut through it, especially for a woman. This isn't sexist, this is the reality women face. Had Clinton faced Romney or McCain or W, it would have been so much different.

It’s interesting to me that men generally accept that Warren lied...

She never quoted him. I'm willing to believe anyone is capable of holding poor positions. But the way this leaked out... when it leaked out... I'm unimpressed. Like Don2 says, it looks bad on both of them.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

There's a probability he is lying. There's also a probability she is lying. Even if she's not lying, it's a bad motivation to bring it up now. Biden doesn't seem to trash other candidates.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Oh I think Bernie isn’t being honest with himself. Stating, as a matter of pragmatism, that a woman couldn’t win 2020 wouldn’t be so weird or out of line. It seems to be a not uncommon fear. Women face tons of criticism that men do not. Just look at twitter and see the nasty nasty bile hurled at Warren. It’s a concern. Sexism is very very real.

This is pure prejudice on your part. He is an old male. You find this attitude common amongst old males therefore you judge that he must secretly hold this attitude, not giving any reason or evidence whatsoever that he particularly does other than that it's common for old males? Well gee whiz Toni, you are white and racism is common in people born before the 90s. Does that make you secretly racist?

Also, if he did say this to her, why would that be sexist anyway? It would be him judging American voters as sexist, not himself being sexist. This is the weakest form of #metoo ever concocted.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

There's a probability he is lying. There's also a probability she is lying. Even if she's not lying, it's a bad motivation to bring it up now. Biden doesn't seem to trash other candidates.

To be fair to all the other candidates that went on the offensive, Biden has been the front runner the whole time. He may go on the attack if and when that changes. As was noted above, Warren didn't make this accusation until she fell below Bernie in the polls.

 

[Toni]

Oh I think Bernie isn’t being honest with himself. Stating, as a matter of pragmatism, that a woman couldn’t win 2020 wouldn’t be so weird or out of line. It seems to be a not uncommon fear. Women face tons of criticism that men do not. Just look at twitter and see the nasty nasty bile hurled at Warren. It’s a concern. Sexism is very very real.

This is pure prejudice on your part. He is an old male. You find this attitude common amongst old males therefore you judge that he must secretly hold this attitude, not giving any reason or evidence whatsoever that he particularly does other than that it's common for old males? Well gee whiz Toni, you are white and racism is common in people born before the 90s. Does that make you secretly racist?

Also, if he did say this to her, why would that be sexist anyway? It would be him judging American voters as sexist, not himself being sexist. This is the weakest form of #metoo ever concocted.

No, I wouldn't care if it were Buttigeig, the youngest candidate still standing, I believe (haven't looked.)

As for why it would be sexist: My father objected vehemently when my sister dated a black man--because of the dangers and prejudices SHE would face. So he said. But there was ample evidence of his racism all the years we were growing up, directly out of his mouth. I am 100% certain that he believed his objections were for her safety and I believe 100% that he wasn't willing to look into his own heart (or remember his own words) to see how it betrayed his own racism.

It is one thing to point out the challenges someone will face because of their race, their gender, their sexual orientation, etc. It is another to say, there will be challenges and I will do everything I can to help you face those challenges, right at your side.

I don't think Bernie said the second. Not when it was a race between himself and Warren. And yes, I think it was sexist, just as it would have been homophobic if he had a quiet talk with Mayor Pete and suggested that it might be the wrong time for the Dems to run an openly gay man.

The fact is that for a long time, there has been talk about discontent among Sanders' staffers regarding racism and sexism. I am fairly certain that he would never, ever think of himself as a sexist or a racist. But I'm pretty sure that he does hold views that today would be seen as racist and sexist and that those views come out in his day to day working with his staff.

Here's this from a year ago: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/6818...ons-of-sexism-and-harassment-on-2016-campaign

Over the past week, alumni of Sanders' presidential campaign have stepped forward to allege inappropriate behavior and unfair treatment of women. Numerous individuals said that staff on the campaign had not taken a complaint about sexual harassment seriously and had treated women unfairly.

On Monday, Politico reported that former Sanders aides requested a meeting with the senator and his top political advisers to "discuss the issue of sexual violence and harassment on the 2016 campaign, for the purpose of planning to mitigate the issue in the upcoming presidential cycle." The letter did not provide details of what was being alleged.

Two days later, the New York Times reported a specific instance in which a Latino outreach strategist for the campaign complained to a supervisor that she had been harassed by a campaign surrogate, but the issue was not appropriately addressed.

and there's this from his 2016 campaign:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/us/politics/bernie-sanders-campaign-sexism.html

In February 2016, Giulianna Di Lauro, a Latino outreach strategist for Senator Bernie Sanders’s presidential operation, complained to her supervisor that she had been harassed by a campaign surrogate whom she drove to events ahead of the Democratic primary in Nevada.

She said the surrogate told her she had “beautiful curly hair” and asked if he could touch it, Ms. Di Lauro said in an interview. Thinking he would just touch a strand, she consented. But she said that he ran his hand through her hair in a “sexual way” and continued to grab, touch and “push my boundaries” for the rest of the day.

“I just wanted to be done with it so badly,” she said.

When she reported the incident to Bill Velazquez, a manager on the Latino outreach team, he told her, “I bet you would have liked it if he were younger,” according to her account and another woman who witnessed the exchange. Then he laughed.

And currently, his staff is complaining about wages from the man who publicly decries the pay of CEOs and the pay of ordinary workers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...46e594de5d5_story.html?utm_term=.b7614123d719

Unionized campaign organizers working for Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential effort are battling with its management, arguing that the compensation and treatment they are receiving does not meet the standards Sanders espouses in his rhetoric, according to internal communications.

Campaign field hires have demanded an annual salary they say would be equivalent to a $15-an-hour wage, which Sanders for years has said should be the federal minimum. The organizers and other employees supporting them have invoked the senator’s words and principles in making their case to campaign manager Faiz Shakir, the documents reviewed by The Washington Post show.

Sanders has made standing up for workers a central theme of his presidential campaigns — this year marching with McDonald’s employees seeking higher wages, pressing Walmart shareholders to pay workers more and showing solidarity with university personnel on strike. The independent from Vermont has proudly touted his campaign as the first presidential effort to unionize its employees, and his defense of the working class has been a signature element of his brand of democratic socialism and a rallying cry for the populist movement he claims to lead.

There are many similar articles if you look.

Now, they may all be garbage but I would be surprised if they were ALL garbage. Most people are unable to live up to their ideals 100% of the time.

What I think about Bernie is that he just doesn't bother himself with details about real people within his personal sphere. He's more concerned with hypothetical people, and people removed from where addresses their inequalities might actually cause him inconvenience. In other words: he's human.

 

[Toni]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

There's a probability he is lying. There's also a probability she is lying. Even if she's not lying, it's a bad motivation to bring it up now. Biden doesn't seem to trash other candidates.

She didn't bring it up, though. She did answer when she was asked to comment. But she wasn't the person who brought this forward.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why does it lower your trust in Bernie? If he's innocent in this, what would you have had him do differently in his reaction to the accusation? He denied it. He didn't attack Warren. He literally extended his hand to her after the debate.

There's a probability he is lying. There's also a probability she is lying. Even if she's not lying, it's a bad motivation to bring it up now. Biden doesn't seem to trash other candidates.

She didn't bring it up, though.

She didn't? The people who talked to her about the conversation from a while back, decided to spontaneously put this out there?

She did answer when she was asked to comment. But she wasn't the person who brought this forward.

I have a hard time believing that.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We don't know if she deliberately used this as a tactic or not. The timing of it is curious, as Don2 noted. The refusal to shake hands is as well. She had just shaken hands with Biden prior and immediately shook hands with Buttigieg afterwards.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

She didn't bring it up, though.

She didn't? The people who talked to her about the conversation from a while back, decided to spontaneously put this out there?

Do I recall correctly reading that they were her staffers? If so, it's maybe not too unlikely that they may decide to act now to save her faltering candidacy even without her telling them to.

Where I would fault her if this is true is same as you. She didn't quote him. She didn't challenge him directly on the stage if and when he lied there about it. Yet she did refuse to shake his hand. That smacks of weakness in itself. This may be understandable for the typical person but she's marketing herself as a strong leader.

 

[Toni]

She didn't bring it up, though.

She didn't? The people who talked to her about the conversation from a while back, decided to spontaneously put this out there?

She did answer when she was asked to comment. But she wasn't the person who brought this forward.

I have a hard time believing that.

Why? If she had been the person bringing it forward, certainly that would be very widely reported, in very large letters.

As for timing? Who knows what's going on behind scenes? Someone had had enough? There have been lots of complaints about sexism within Sanders' campaign in the past and there are ongoing labor issues right now. I'd say that this coming from Sanders' campaign sounds at least as likely as coming from Warren's and frankly, more.

OR it could simply be that primaries are getting closer and it's Knives Out.

 

[Toni]

She didn't bring it up, though.

She didn't? The people who talked to her about the conversation from a while back, decided to spontaneously put this out there?

Do I recall correctly reading that they were her staffers? If so, it's maybe not too unlikely that they may decide to act now to save her faltering candidacy even without her telling them to.

Where I would fault her if this is true is same as you. She didn't quote him. She didn't challenge him directly on the stage if and when he lied there about it. Yet she did refuse to shake his hand. That smacks of weakness in itself. This may be understandable for the typical person but she's marketing herself as a strong leader.

Her candidacy isn't 'failing,' although making such statements and similar ones about people out of disfavor is a not unheard of tactic by certain prominent politicians.

The sources are typically reported as anonymous. I haven't read that it was Warren's staffers.

But so what if it were Warren--so long as what she said was true?


This sounds a lot like people thinking that all of the women who have accused Donald Trump of sexual assault and rape should have just kept quiet. And all the women who accused Weinstein should have just kept quiet. And the women who came forward about Bill Cosby. And the boys who came forward about Sandusky and the priests? Or that they were lying. Or at least exaggerating.

Of course, the alleged Sanders statement is pretty benign. Nothing I haven't read reported from lots of people in mainstream news. So why is this a big deal?

What's not so benign is Warren being raked over the coals because someone spoke up and because she confirmed what was said. There's a word for that. A couple of words, actually.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

She didn't? The people who talked to her about the conversation from a while back, decided to spontaneously put this out there?
I have a hard time believing that.

Why?

Sanders is surging in the polls, by a whole few percentage points (getting tired of the exploitative press). Also, Warren's bump has faded, much like Harris's bump had faded because... people are stupid and can't hold an opinion for longer than a few weeks.

If she had been the person bringing it forward, certainly that would be very widely reported, in very large letters.

It coming out at this time leads one to think that is a bit of a desperate ploy, so you'd let it leak out in what would seemingly be an organic way. Otherwise it looks like dirty pool.

As for timing? Who knows what's going on behind scenes? Someone had had enough? There have been lots of complaints about sexism within Sanders' campaign in the past and there are ongoing labor issues right now. I'd say that this coming from Sanders' campaign sounds at least as likely as coming from Warren's and frankly, more.

OR it could simply be that primaries are getting closer and it's Knives Out.

I think it is funny. We had Cory Booker, Michael Bennett, John Hickenlooper, Kamala Harris, as well as Klobuchar and Gillibrand.

And the final three, if Klobuchar can't replace Warren are the three fossils: Biden, Sanders, and Warren.

Wait, I didn't mean funny, I meant depressing. The Democrat Party has viable young blood with viable Government experience... and people are polling for the dinosaurs... and the former mayor of a smallish city in Indiana.

 

[Toni]

Sanders is surging in the polls, by a whole few percentage points (getting tired of the exploitative press). Also, Warren's bump has faded, much like Harris's bump had faded because... people are stupid and can't hold an opinion for longer than a few weeks.

If she had been the person bringing it forward, certainly that would be very widely reported, in very large letters.

It coming out at this time leads one to think that is a bit of a desperate ploy, so you'd let it leak out in what would seemingly be an organic way. Otherwise it looks like dirty pool.

As for timing? Who knows what's going on behind scenes? Someone had had enough? There have been lots of complaints about sexism within Sanders' campaign in the past and there are ongoing labor issues right now. I'd say that this coming from Sanders' campaign sounds at least as likely as coming from Warren's and frankly, more.

OR it could simply be that primaries are getting closer and it's Knives Out.

I think it is funny. We had Cory Booker, Michael Bennett, John Hickenlooper, Kamala Harris, as well as Klobuchar and Gillibrand.

And the final three, if Klobuchar can't replace Warren are the three fossils: Biden, Sanders, and Warren.

Wait, I didn't mean funny, I meant depressing. The Democrat Party has viable young blood with viable Government experience... and people are polling for the dinosaurs... and the former mayor of a smallish city in Indiana.

But it is now the assumption that Warren leaked it.

Suppose there had been some damning accusation about Warren from a man: suppose it were leaked that Warren told Buttigeig that perhaps 2020 was the wrong time for the Dems to put forth an openly gay candidate? Or if she had allegedly told Booker or Castro that it wasn’t the right time for a person of color to have the nomination?

Any such allegation would be believed because it is against Warren, a woman who has been loudly and openly attacked by Trump—who has left Sanders alone and who left Booker alone and Castro as well. Curious that Trump has only attacked female candidates—except for Biden.

Women are not only supposed to be perfect, they’re supposed to keep quiet and take it like a girl. If they don’t, they are accused of being a liar.

Even by very good men.

Just read this thread. Men see all kinds of reasons that Warren could have lied—and totally forget all the stories about Sanders own campaign! But of course Saint Bernie would never ever lie or misremember. If he fails to take note well, he’s just a Great Man.