• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Are Constitutional Monarchies More Stable?

SLD

Contributor
Joined
Feb 25, 2001
Messages
5,118
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
Basic Beliefs
Freethinker
I know Bilby is going to shit when he sees this thread!

But it is an ongoing debate - does a Constitutional Monarchy actually protect democratic rule better than a Republic? With the death of QEII, the debate is obviously being revived.


This is an Australian article from a few years ago. But I've heard a few other similar type arguments over the years. Considering the failures of Republican governments to control what essentially has become fascism in places like Russia, Hungary, Turkey, and even the U.S. under Trump, could a monarchy, with obviously limited powers, control the populist passions that can often see Republics turned into fascist states?

Of course King Emmanuel didn't prevent Mussolini's rise to power. Good counter example.

Well, let the debate begin!
 
I doubt very much that Gough Whitlam felt that Constitutional Monarchy was protective of democratic rule.

Ultimately the answer to the OP question is "It depends on what the detailed rules of the Monarchy and the Republic actually are", and probably also "It depends on the personalities of the individuals involved", with a big dose of "Is democracy always and unquestionably the best thing for a nation state, anyway?"

As I have said before, democracy really needs to be limited to questions of pure opinion; Where there's a known optimum course for the country, it should be run as a 'meritocracy of ideas', wherein experts get to set policy based on fact, and democracy is relegated to the status of an ignorant public opinion that is rightly disregarded.
 
I doubt very much that Gough Whitlam felt that Constitutional Monarchy was protective of democratic rule.

Ultimately the answer to the OP question is "It depends on what the detailed rules of the Monarchy and the Republic actually are", and probably also "It depends on the personalities of the individuals involved", with a big dose of "Is democracy always and unquestionably the best thing for a nation state, anyway?"

As I have said before, democracy really needs to be limited to questions of pure opinion; Where there's a known optimum course for the country, it should be run as a 'meritocracy of ideas', wherein experts get to set policy based on fact, and democracy is relegated to the status of an ignorant public opinion that is rightly disregarded.
An issue becomes how to prevent the corruption of the meritocracy of ideas from being invaded and captured by the interested.

How do you decide who the experts are?

How do you decide folks who were at some time considered experts are just cocking it all up?
 
I doubt very much that Gough Whitlam felt that Constitutional Monarchy was protective of democratic rule.

Ultimately the answer to the OP question is "It depends on what the detailed rules of the Monarchy and the Republic actually are", and probably also "It depends on the personalities of the individuals involved", with a big dose of "Is democracy always and unquestionably the best thing for a nation state, anyway?"

As I have said before, democracy really needs to be limited to questions of pure opinion; Where there's a known optimum course for the country, it should be run as a 'meritocracy of ideas', wherein experts get to set policy based on fact, and democracy is relegated to the status of an ignorant public opinion that is rightly disregarded.
An issue becomes how to prevent the corruption of the meritocracy of ideas from being invaded and captured by the interested.

How do you decide who the experts are?

How do you decide folks who were at some time considered experts are just cocking it all up?
Sure, it's not easy.

But those problems arise with any technologically advanced society, because most people in such a society have zero clue how most of it actually works.

We have the absurd situation right now, in which decisions about how to prevent anthropogenic climate change are being made by politicians who know little of the science, who in turn are elected by voters who know even less.

And as a result, we are rapidly accelerating towards our doom, while farting around at the edges with "solutions" that are popular, but ineffective; While simultaneously actively dismantling solutions that are highly effective but unpopular.

We need nuclear plants; Were getting windmills.

So we can feel truly smug about our having done something, even as we continue to achieve nothing (other than lining the pockets of gas producers, such as Vladimir Putin and his cronies.

And that's just one example. I don't know what the answer is, but democracy appears very much not to be it.
 
Doesn't a monarch in a constitutional monarchy play the same role as a president in a parliamentary democracy? Figure head and power to dissolve parliament if requested?
 
We can look at how well nations perform in various indices:
There is some scatter in the ratings, but I have decided to combine them by taking the ratings' medians.

The top rated nation, with an average rank of 2, is Norway, a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system. Finland is next at 2.5, a republic with a parliamentary system. New Zealand 4 CM-Parl, Sweden 4 CM-Parl, Denmark 5.5 CM-Parl, Switzerland 7.5 R-Parl, Netherlands 9 CM-Parl, Ireland 9.25 R-Parl, Canada 10 CM-Parl, Iceland 10 R-Parl, Luxembourg 10.75 CM-Parl, Australia 11 CM-Parl, Germany 14 R-Parl, Belgium 16.75 CM-Parl, Japan 18 CM-Parl, Uruguay 18 R with a presidential system, Austria 19 R-Parl, Portugal 19.5 R with a semi-presidential system, France 20.5 R-Semi, South Korea 20.5 R-Pres, United Kingdom 22 CM-Parl, Andorra 26 ?, Costa Rica 26 R-Pres, Estonia 26 R-Parl, Slovenia 26 R-Parl, Taiwan 26 R-Semi, Chile 27.5 R-Pres, Czechia 30.5 R-Parl, Spain 31 CM-Parl, Lithuania 33.5 R-Semi, Italy 34 R-Parl, Cape Verde 34.5 R-Pres, Slovakia 36 R-Parl, Latvia 36.5 R-Parl, Malta 37.5 R-Parl, Mauritius 38 R-Parl, United States 38 R-Pres

The US is way down there, tied at median rank 18 with Mauritius, a tiny island nation in the Indian Ocean with an approximate radius of 25 km and a population of 1.3 million.

 List of countries by system of government

Yes, constitutional monarchies are among the top scorers, but they are mixed in with republics. Also notable is that most of the top-scoring nations have parliamentary systems of government, with only a few having presidential systems or hybrid ("semi-presidential") systems.

So that would make the ideal form of government a parliamentary one.
 
I think the main factors are

1) how stupid/gullible the voting populace is
2) how stupid/corrupt the monarchies are
3) does money have a big influence on those in power
 
We can look at how well nations perform in various indices:
There is some scatter in the ratings, but I have decided to combine them by taking the ratings' medians.

The top rated nation, with an average rank of 2, is Norway, a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system. Finland is next at 2.5, a republic with a parliamentary system. New Zealand 4 CM-Parl, Sweden 4 CM-Parl, Denmark 5.5 CM-Parl, Switzerland 7.5 R-Parl, Netherlands 9 CM-Parl, Ireland 9.25 R-Parl, Canada 10 CM-Parl, Iceland 10 R-Parl, Luxembourg 10.75 CM-Parl, Australia 11 CM-Parl, Germany 14 R-Parl, Belgium 16.75 CM-Parl, Japan 18 CM-Parl, Uruguay 18 R with a presidential system, Austria 19 R-Parl, Portugal 19.5 R with a semi-presidential system, France 20.5 R-Semi, South Korea 20.5 R-Pres, United Kingdom 22 CM-Parl, Andorra 26 ?, Costa Rica 26 R-Pres, Estonia 26 R-Parl, Slovenia 26 R-Parl, Taiwan 26 R-Semi, Chile 27.5 R-Pres, Czechia 30.5 R-Parl, Spain 31 CM-Parl, Lithuania 33.5 R-Semi, Italy 34 R-Parl, Cape Verde 34.5 R-Pres, Slovakia 36 R-Parl, Latvia 36.5 R-Parl, Malta 37.5 R-Parl, Mauritius 38 R-Parl, United States 38 R-Pres

The US is way down there, tied at median rank 18 with Mauritius, a tiny island nation in the Indian Ocean with an approximate radius of 25 km and a population of 1.3 million.

 List of countries by system of government

Yes, constitutional monarchies are among the top scorers, but they are mixed in with republics. Also notable is that most of the top-scoring nations have parliamentary systems of government, with only a few having presidential systems or hybrid ("semi-presidential") systems.

So that would make the ideal form of government a parliamentary one.
No argument from me
 
As to what makes constitutional monarchies score highly, I'm sure that it's survivorship bias. Over the past few centuries, numerous monarchies have ended, often from being on the losing side of some political upheaval. So in nations without big upheavals, monarchies would persist.

Consider that in all of humanity's recorded history before recent centuries, republics much larger than a city-state have been rare. The largest was likely the ancient Roman Republic, but it ended up becoming the Roman Empire, with the emperors being monarchs in all but name. They didn't call themselves kings, and they professed to be faithful servants of the Roman Senate, but it was clear who was giving the orders, and who would decide on their successors.

Likewise, in early modern times, the Dutch Republic's stadtholder became a de facto monarch.

The oldest surviving republics are San Marino, a city-state surrounded by Italy, and Switzerland, both dating back to the Middle Ages.
 
But something changed, and I've never been able to find out exactly what changed, what made monarchies fall out of favor in many places. But it's very clear that something changed, and I'll try to give an overall view of it.

I think that the beginning of the end started in the late 18th century in thirteen disgruntled British North American colonies. They rebelled against British rule, and after that, decided to unite to make a new nation. George Washington, the military leader of that rebellion, was highly respected, and he could have become King George I of this new nation. But he chose not to, and when he became the nation's first President, he served for only two terms, and he rejected titles fancier than "Mister President".

But also in the late 18th century was an event that kept monarchy going for a century more in Europe. The French Revolution. The revolutionaries were content with a constitutional monarchy at first, but when King Louis XVI appealed to some neighboring nations for help against the revolutionaries, they chopped off his head with a machine that became a symbol of that revolution: the guillotine. The revolution had a lot of strife and a lot more people suffered the guillotine. It ended with Napoleon Bonaparte emerging as unchallenged leader and essentially a new monarch.

He tried to conquer much of Europe but he failed and was deposed. He returned to start more conquests but he was deposed a second time.

For the next century, all the way to World War I, European nation builders wanted monarchs for their new nations: Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Norway. Finland almost got a monarch, but WWI got in the way, and that nation stayed a republic.

That war ended four big nations' monarchies: the Hohenzollerns of Germany, the Habsburgs of Austria, the Romanovs of Russia, and the Osmans of the Ottoman Empire. Wilhelm II was made to resign by President Woodrow Wilson, Charles I fled to Portugal, Nicholas II abdicated a little before because the war was not going well for Russia, and Mehmed VI was deposed a little after because he was too defeatist.

Of the new nations, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Austria were all republics, Yugoslavia inherited Serbia's monarchs, much like Germany with Prussia's monarchs, and Hungary was ruled by a regent, Admiral Horthy, because Hungarians couldn't decide who would be their king -- a Habsburg or some local noble.

Several monarchies fell in Europe over the last century. The Italian one fell in 1946 from a referendum, because of association with the Fascist regime, and the Greek one in 1973, from association with the colonels' dictatorship. The ones of Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Albania were overthrown by the Communists who took over there after WWII.

Spain became a republic in 1931, then a monarchy again in 1975 from whom dictator Francisco Franco wanted to succeed from.
 
Decolonization produced republics most of the time, though not all of the time. The first decolonized nation was thirteen ex-British North American colonies that decided to join up into a single nation rather than stay thirteen separate nations.

This was followed over 1808-1826 by most of Latin America. Most of it became republics with the exception of Brazil, which was a monarchy until 1889, when the nation's emperor was overthrown.

Though the British Empire continued to expand after that setback in North America some 250 years ago, some British colonies nevertheless became independent over that time. Canada became independent in 1867, Australia in 1901, New Zealand in 1907, South Africa in 1910, and Ireland in 1921. All five nations had the British monarch as their Head of State, represented in their nations by a Governor General in each one. But Ireland declared itself a republic in 1949 and South Africa in 1961, cutting ties with the British monarch.

The next big wave of decolonization was in the Middle East and North Africa after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI. The British got Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, and Iraq, and the French got Lebanon and Syria. All the French territories became republics and all the British ones but Palestine became monarchies, though all of them were later overthrown. The British ruled Palestine until 1948, when the State of Israel became independent -- as a republic.

The biggest and final wave of decolonization started at the end of WWII, though it continued for some decades.

The ex-colonies of the British Empire either continued to accept the British monarch as the head of state, to have native monarchs (the Gulf States and Malaysia), or to become republics (India, Pakistan). Nearly every other decolonized nation became a republic, like most former French and Portuguese colonies, and also Korea, a former Japanese colony. There is at least one exception: Morocco, a former French colony that has a native monarchy. Korea got split in two by Cold War politics, with the southern half being a republic and the northern half starting off as a republic but inventing a new monarchy.
 
But something changed, and I've never been able to find out exactly what changed, what made monarchies fall out of favor in many places. But it's very clear that something changed, and I'll try to give an overall view of it.

I think that the beginning of the end started in the late 18th century in thirteen disgruntled British North American colonies. They rebelled against British rule, and after that, decided to unite to make a new nation. George Washington, the military leader of that rebellion, was highly respected, and he could have become King George I of this new nation. But he chose not to, and when he became the nation's first President, he served for only two terms, and he rejected titles fancier than "Mister President".

But also in the late 18th century was an event that kept monarchy going for a century more in Europe. The French Revolution. The revolutionaries were content with a constitutional monarchy at first, but when King Louis XVI appealed to some neighboring nations for help against the revolutionaries, they chopped off his head with a machine that became a symbol of that revolution: the guillotine. The revolution had a lot of strife and a lot more people suffered the guillotine. It ended with Napoleon Bonaparte emerging as unchallenged leader and essentially a new monarch.

I couldn't disagree more.

The USA was barely noticed by anyone in Europe, or in European colonial possessions (ie pretty much everywhere that wasn't the USA), prior to the Great War. It had pretty much zero influence on the way in which anywhere else was governed until the US participation in drafting the Treaty of Versailles, which was the Americans first step onto the big stage. Before that, US influence on the world was purely commercial, and that only as a result of the Industrial Revolution (as accelerated by your Civil War).

The French Revolution had a profound effect, and the move away from absolute monarchy was certainly strongly influenced by fear, amongst aristocrats in the rest of Europe, that something similar could happen to them if they didn't concede more power to the commons.

But the French were far from the first. The seeds of the ending of autocracy were sown by Magna Carta, in which the king ceded power to his nominally subordinate aristocrats; And flowered with the communications and propaganda revolution, and the enlightenment, whereby people started to seriously think about government, rather than just accepting that there was a king, who had final authority in all matters (aside from the religious, which was the separate domain of the head of the church - until Henry VIII decided to amalgamate the roles).

The Wars of the Three Kingdoms, culminating in the beheading of Charles I of England, pre-dated to French revolution by more than a century, and set up a local counterexample to the dominant French habit of aristocratic excess which doubtless influenced the revolutionary elements in France; That the revolutionaries went too far and ended up making a drama out of a crisis is the norm for revolutions, not the exception.

Typically the kind of people who overthrow their government are exactly the wrong people to put into government in place of the tyrant they overthrew. Cromwell avoided his revolutionary army becoming a scourge on the English people by sending them to be a scourge on the Irish; The Continental Army and it's successor, the Legion of the United States, was sicced on the Native Americans; But most successful revolutions end with the victors rampaging across the land, terrorising people because, well, who's going to stop them?

It's fairly easy to raise a revolutionary army. But then people discover that those armies don't have a "stop" button. You either find someone for them to terrorise, or you get terrorised yourself.

The rise of constitutional monarchies and of republics, to replace autocratic monarchies, stems more from the widening of thought - both in terms of what was being thought about, and of who was doing the thinking. The Enlightenment led to the acceptance of questioning of the status quo at all scales, and asking, "is this the best way to run our country?", went from being a capital crime to being acceptable dining table and coffee house conversation amongst intellectuals and the middle classes.

Revolutions are a noisy and noticeable side-effect of this freedom of thought. Even bad examples, like the Terror in France, are grist to the mill of intellectual discourse on how best to run a nation - its a scientific approach, in which one learns as much (or more) from failures and unintended consequences, as one does from successes.

Europeans did a lot of talking, a lot of thinking, and a lot of observation, on the topic of how to best govern a country. They tried lots of stuff, and lots of it failed spectacularly. But one thing they did very little of was notice the small, remote, and insignificant group of former English colonies that had staged a revolution as a sideshow to the war between England and France.

The idea of the USA as a power, much less a superpower, whose actions and utterances were noticed worldwide, is presentism. It was certainly true for the last century or so, but before that, it absolutely wasn't. The only people who noticed America before the Industrial Revolution, were people in America, and traders in cotton, sugar, tobacco, and slaves.
 
They remain constitutional monarchies because they are stable.
 
It all depends on circumstances.

The royals have been entrenched in Britain for a very long time.

Saudi Arabia is a constitutional monarchy but unlike the UK the king does have power. The king is the absolute ruler in the traditional sense.


The king of Saudi Arabia is the monarchial head of state and head of government of Saudi Arabia who holds absolute power. He is the head of the Saudi Arabian royal family, the House of Saud.[1] The king is called the "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques" (خادم الحرمين الشريفين), a title that signifies Saudi Arabia's jurisdiction over the mosques of Masjid al Haram in Mecca and Al-Masjid an-Nabawi in Medina. The title has been used many times through the history of Islam. The first Saudi monarch to use the title was King Faisal, however, King Khalid did not use the title after him. In 1986, King Fahd replaced "His Majesty" with the title of Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, and it has been ever since used by both King Abdullah and King Salman bin Abdulaziz.[2]

Contents​


Denmark has a small largely homogeneous population.


The Danish Monarchy is constitutional and as such, the role of the monarch is defined and limited by the Constitution of Denmark. According to the constitution, the ultimate executive authority over the government of Denmark is still by and through the monarch's royal reserve powers; in practice these powers are only used according to laws enacted in Parliament or within the constraints of convention. The monarch is, in practice, limited to non-partisan functions such as bestowing honours and formally appointing the prime minister. The monarch and his or her immediate family undertake various official, ceremonial, diplomatic and representational duties.


Sweden in the present day is a representative democracy in a parliamentary system based on popular sovereignty, as defined in the current Instrument of Government (one of the four Fundamental Laws of the Realm which makes up the written constitution[6]). The monarch and the members of the royal family undertake a variety of official, unofficial and other representational duties within Sweden and abroad.[5]

On the scale of the USA impossible.
 
On the scale of the USA impossible.
Nonsense. The only differences between the US system, and a parliamentary monarchy with significant monarchical powers, is that you select your ruler by voting, limit their term in office, and call them 'President' rather than 'King'.

The scale of the country is irrelevant; If a single individual can be President, then he could equally well be King.

Shit, the British monarchs ruled a FAR larger area, and a FAR larger number of people, for longer than your country has existed, without the advantages of modern communications or transportation technologies.
 
On the scale of the USA impossible.
A fair amount of your countrymen don't believe in the magna carta and judging by Liz Cheney's treatment believe very strongly in the concept of Lèse-majesté. You can't go by a single election cycle without a mention of dynasties like Bush, Clinton, Trump etc. People like Rand Paul, John McCain and Matt Gaetz only are in government because of who their parents are. America could quite easily become a monarchy. Enough of you believe in the concept of it at least.
 
I had a phuiosphy in the 70s who grew up in Lithuania in WWII and fought in the resistance.

In Phil 101 on the question of what defines good government he said good government is good when here are no riots, rebellion, and unrest in the street.

China maitains stabilty by enforcing social conformity and suppressing dissent.

How many governments have there been in Italy post war? Coalition government has been problematic for Israel.

To me stability means peaceful continuity of govern mt, little civil disorder, and economic salability.

I'd say we are not stable. Jan6 says we are not stable. A fragile supply chain says we are not stable.
 
With the help of  List of countries by system of government I checked on  List of current monarchs of sovereign states

Not a very long list, it must be noted. I'll give their scores in Freedom House, Economist Democracy Index, Democracy Matrix, and Fragile States.
  • Denmark - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 97 - 9.09 - 0.958 - 15.6
  • Norway - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 100 - 9.75 - 0.956 - 18.1
  • Sweden - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 100 - 9.26 - 0.946 - 20.9
  • Netherlands - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 98 - 8.88 - 0.930 - 22.1
  • Luxembourg - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 97 - 8.68 - 0.905 - 20.0
  • Liechtenstein - Activist, Hybrid - 90 - -- - -- - --
  • UK & dominions - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 93 - 8.10 - 0.892 - 40.6
  • Spain - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 90 - 7.94 - 0.912 - 44.4
  • Japan - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 96 - 8.15 - 0.857 - 31.0
  • Cambodia - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 24 - 2.90 - 0.178 - 80.5
  • Thailand - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 30 - 6.04 - 0.300 - 70.0
  • Brunei - Activist, Absolute - 28 - -- - -- - 55.1
  • Tonga - Activist, Hybrid - 79 - -- - -- - --
  • Bhutan - Activist, Hybrid - 61 - 5.71 - 0.701 - 67.4
  • Lesotho - Ceremonial, Parliamentary - 63 - 6.30 - 0.644 - 77.4
  • Eswatini (Swaziland) - Activist, Absolute - 19 - 3.08 - 0.239 - 80.4
  • Morocco - Activist, Hybrid - 37 - 5.04 - 0.474 - 70.1
  • Jordan - Activist, Hybrid - 34 - 3.49 - 0.454 - 76.6
  • Saudi Arabia - Activist, Absolute - 7 - 2.08 - 0.048 - 67.5
  • Kuwait - Activist, Hybrid - 37 - 3.91 - 0.496 - 52.2
  • Bahrain - Activist, Hybrid - 12 - 2.52 - -- - 66.6
  • Qatar - Activist, Hybrid - 25 - 3.65 - 0.054 - 42.3
  • United Arab Emirates - Activist, Hybrid - 17 - 2.90 - 0.166 - 39.1
  • Oman - Activist, Absolute - 23 - 3.00 - 0.251 - 49.5
 
Back
Top Bottom