Are there any "true" atheists?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Being rational doesn't replace feeling or imagination or intuition. It's to guide them so they serve life instead of undermine it. Also to avoid letting belief about the existence of God/gods/goddesses be chosen for you by impulses.

That's the ideal, but the human psyche is rarely ideal. We need to learn to live with our behavior based on emotion and recognize it's reality, and that includes the "religious impulse."

The impulse to feign some level of control over a situation, if even just tiny, isn't religious impulse. It is a general desire of the mind in order to not panic at uncertainty.

Sure. That sounds about right, but unfortunately you didn't define "religious impulse."

It is your term, and with religious being an adverb for the verb impulse, it would seem to imply that "religious impulse" indicates a natural proclivity to being drawn to religiously based ideologies. However, as I note in my post, I think that the impulse is being overly finetuned by you for something that is much broader.

We see it this in a decent amount of life in addition to religion, such as astrology and superstition and even in ardent adherence to routine.

I would add that a tenacious adherence to dogmas can also serve as a level of assurance that one is "right" and therefore able to overcome difficulties using knowledge that one actually doesn't have. For example, using home remedies that have no curative powers to help a loved one get over illness can serve to mitigate panic in the face of that kind of uncertainty.

Of most things, what our minds fear the most is:

1. A lack of control
2. The unknown
3. Being wrong

That's one list, but it's not difficult to come up with many other lists of what we fear the most.

I think it would be hard. Those are primal issues. Spiders don't count.

This is generally the reason why we get trapped in superstitions, even if they are completely and utterly ridiculous. Dancing in fancy dress to make it rain is really little different to kneeling in a building, hands clasped together, in silent thought to an invisible entity we think can hear us to help with a family relative's bad health condition. It is just that due to number 2 and especially 3, it is hard for people to let go of the idea.

I think there's some truth to what you're saying here, but I'm not sure how it relates to what I said about the great difficulty we can have overcoming our emotions including the human tendency to act religiously.

The word is superstitiously, not religiously. Godly religion came after animism.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I have decided that Unknown Soldier is right but hasn't gone far enough. Not only do we atheists believe in god, we also believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior in our hearts, and that means whatever we do we, get to go to Heaven. Even if we think we're atheists we're wrong and so the whole test of faith thing was never really consequential.

How sure are you that you won't go to hell?

It's because you are such a superb poster that you have convinced me that I only think I am atheist. I am actually unconsciously a fundie Christian. So obviously, I won't go to hell.

I was never able to completely get over my indoctrination as a Christian, so I still have a fear of damnation. Of course, damnation is only a threat if there's a God to damn me. So if anybody wants to label me as an atheist, then I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic. I can successfully argue against the existence of God(s), yet still "feel" one.

 

[DBT]

What we feel is not God, but whatever religious conditioning we were exposed to in our formative years.

 

[steve_bank]

I have decided that Unknown Soldier is right but hasn't gone far enough. Not only do we atheists believe in god, we also believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior in our hearts, and that means whatever we do we, get to go to Heaven. Even if we think we're atheists we're wrong and so the whole test of faith thing was never really consequential.

How sure are you that you won't go to hell?

It's because you are such a superb poster that you have convinced me that I only think I am atheist. I am actually unconsciously a fundie Christian. So obviously, I won't go to hell.

I was never able to completely get over my indoctrination as a Christian, so I still have a fear of damnation. Of course, damnation is only a threat if there's a God to damn me. So if anybody wants to label me as an atheist, then I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic. I can successfully argue against the existence of God(s), yet still "feel" one.

That is something I can understand. Being rased Catholic the indoctrination goes deep staing as a kid. The RCC starts you off feeling guilty and then says the RCC is the only way to get rid of guilt they make you feel in the first place.

I think a lot of us indoctrinated in the RCC can feel lifelong residual feeling of guilt that can surface at times. It is not hyperbole to call it mind control. A Pavlovian kind of conditioned response.

It took me a while to fully get over it.

It s up to you to say what you are. If not people speculate. One of the benefits of this forum is you can work it out for yourself.

 

[TomC]

I was never able to completely get over my indoctrination as a Christian, so I still have a fear of damnation. Of course, damnation is only a threat if there's a God to damn me. So if anybody wants to label me as an atheist, then I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic. I can successfully argue against the existence of God(s), yet still "feel" one.

I'm no psychiatrist, but that sounds more like childhood trauma than theism of any sort.
Something you might look into is "Universalism". As a denomination it merged with Unitarian in the 50s to become UU.
Universalism is pretty standard Trinitarians. The big difference is "Universal Salvation". It's simple and rational. "Almighty God wants all His children Saved. Almighty God gets what He wants. Therefore everyone gets Saved"
It's much more rational than eternal punishment for finite sinning, no matter how bad. It's not a "Get out of Hell free" card. There might be a long and arduous reeducation process between judgement and the Pearly Gates. But it isn't infinite or purposeless.

With God All Things Are Possible

Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I was never able to completely get over my indoctrination as a Christian, so I still have a fear of damnation.

A lot of adults have phobias. When I was 3 years old, I was bitten badly by a dog. For quite a few years later, up to preteen years I was afraid of dogs. But then the next few years, I wasn't exposed to dogs and following that, I lived with a family with a dog. I am not sure that these exposures influenced my phobia or lack thereof, but it doesn't exist anymore and hasn't for many years. Upon further reading, it appears that childhood phobias tend to go away:

Childhood phobias occur most commonly between the ages of 5 and 9, and tend to last a short while. Most longer-lasting phobias begin later in life, especially in people in their 20s. Adult phobias tend to last for many years, and they are less likely to go away on their own, unless they are treated. Phobia can increase an adult's risk of other types of psychiatric illness, especially other anxiety disorders, depression and substance abuse.

 

[bilby]

I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic.

We already noticed that you don't believe in sound logic.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic.

We already noticed that you don't believe in sound logic.

You haven't defined "sound logic".

 

[James Brown]

For some people, "sound logic" means whatever feels right to them.

 

[TomC]

For some people, "sound logic" means whatever feels right to them.

Unfortunately for the human situation, it's not just some people. It's everybody.

Some people are better at rational thought than others. But humans aren't generally very good at it.
Tom

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic.

We already noticed that you don't believe in sound logic.

You haven't defined "sound logic".

I better interject here seeing that we are likely to be misinformed.

Sound logic is logic that is both valid and fact based. For example, consider the following syllogism:

Bon Jovi lives in New Jersey.
New Jersey is a US state.
Therefore, Bon Jovi lives in the US.

The logic here is valid because if Bon Jovi lives in New Jersey, and if New Jersey is a US state, then Bon Jovi lives in the US. Moreover, the logic is fact based because Bon Jovi actually lives in New Jersey, and New Jersey really is a US state. This argument is then based on sound logic.

So as a person who values reason and truth, I've made a point of using sound logic. You can see so in all of my posts. I just wish the others here would follow my lead and use sound logic too.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Bon Jovi lives in New Jersey.
New Jersey is a US state.
Therefore, Bon Jovi lives in the US.

But he might not really live in New Jersey, he might just think he lives in New Jersey. He can show you photographs of him in his NJ house, his NJ driver's license, and his mortgage bill, but he might just visit there or it might be a conspiracy to supply fake evidence.

It's a lot like this:

1. Bon Jovi doesn't believe in a god.
2. People who don't believe in a god are atheists.
3. Bon Jovi is an atheist.​

See, Bon Jovi might just _think_ he doesn't believe in a god. So he's not a "true" atheist. He can supply all kinds of personal stories and reproducible thought processes, but you never know!

There are only really two things we can be sure about here. The first is that since Bon Jovi is a fundamentalist Christian, he gets to go to Heaven. And the second is we have no idea where the fuck he lives.

See, sound logic.

 

[steve_bank]

p1 atheists act like theists
p2 theists worship a god
p3 atheists do not worship a god
c therefor are no true atheists

P1 conflicts with p2 and p3.
Non Sequitur, conclusion is not related to premises.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

For some people, "sound logic" means whatever feels right to them.

Yes, I think that's true, but just because there are counterfeits, it doesn't follow that there is nothing that is genuine. Logic is a very old, refined, and sophisticated discipline and is intellectually on a par with mathematics. I encourage everybody here to study logic.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

For some people, "sound logic" means whatever feels right to them.

Yes, I think that's true, but just because there are counterfeits, it doesn't follow that there is nothing that is genuine. Logic is a very old, refined, and sophisticated discipline and is intellectually on a par with mathematics. I encourage everybody here to study logic.

We do. We all do. Maybe you might start by describing the 'logic' behind a 'fear of damnation'?

aa

 

[abaddon]

I've made a point of using sound logic. You can see so in all of my posts.

Nope. How entirely binary that theism versus atheism is has been lost on you. X and Not-X logically cannot overlap but you insist that they can. Do you know which basic law of logic it is that applies here?

You said that a complex psyche makes the theist-atheist binary too simple to be true. Which is as stupid as saying North and South can be the same direction because the landscape is complex. Can you name the logical error?

When it was suggested you THINK through the feelings that the "subconscious" presents to you, you said "people can't be rational all the time". It's as logically flawed as being lost and then, when someone suggests looking at a map, you retort: "can't be looking at maps all the time!" Do you see the logical error?

You hurt yourself if you won't acknowledge the errors and try to actually learn to think, instead of merely believing that you've learned it.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

For some people, "sound logic" means whatever feels right to them.

Yes, I think that's true, but just because there are counterfeits, it doesn't follow that there is nothing that is genuine. Logic is a very old, refined, and sophisticated discipline and is intellectually on a par with mathematics. I encourage everybody here to study logic.

We do. We all do. Maybe you might start by describing the 'logic' behind a 'fear of damnation'?

aa

That's easy. If there might be a God who damns unbelievers, then logically atheists will be toast.

 

[abaddon]

I was never able to completely get over my indoctrination as a Christian, so I still have a fear of damnation. Of course, damnation is only a threat if there's a God to damn me. So if anybody wants to label me as an atheist, then I'm not really an atheist regarding belief but regarding sound logic. I can successfully argue against the existence of God(s), yet still "feel" one.

I don't see any indication of theism here. You say you feel a fear. You know it's not justified unless there really is a god. So where does the belief in God come in???

The fear isn't a belief in God. Your surmise that the fear isn't justified if God isn't real isn't a belief in God.

If you're saying there's an indoctrinated belief in God hiding in the subconscious that expresses as the fear of hell, that too is not a belief that God is real.

Do you think your self-descriptive "ism" labels have to adjust for an irrational impulse that bubbles up from "the subconscious"?

What if you dream about a snot-dragon chasing you and you feel fear of it? Is that belief in dragons?

Logic your way through this.

 

[Shadowy Man]

That's easy. If there might be a God who damns unbelievers, then logically atheists will be toast.

you’d have to change the “might be” to “is” for this to work logically.

If there is a Santa Claus who judges children by their behaviors then logically bullies won’t be getting gifts this Christmas.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I've made a point of using sound logic. You can see so in all of my posts.

Nope. How entirely binary that theism versus atheism is has been lost on you.

That's right. I don't get it.

X and Not-X logically cannot overlap but you insist that they can.

That's incorrect. I never said that whatever it might mean.

Do you know which basic law of logic it is that applies here?

No, but you just posted a straw-man fallacy. You said I said what in fact I never said.

You said that a complex psyche makes the theist-atheist binary too simple to be true.

Ah--now you're getting a bit closer to the truth here. What I'm actually arguing is that the complexity, changeability and imperfection of the human psyche allows for contradictory thoughts in the same person at the same time. That's why it's possible and I think actual that some atheists harbor belief in God(s).

Which is as stupid as saying North and South can be the same direction because the landscape is complex. Can you name the logical error?

LOL. That's a very awkward and irrelevant analogy. Human thought is way too different from geography to draw meaningful comparisons between the two. In any case, it's entirely possible for a person to think north and south are the same direction.

When it was suggested you THINK through the feelings that the "subconscious" presents to you...

I don't recall anybody suggesting this to me, and even if they did, it doesn't make sense.

...you said "people can't be rational all the time".

Did you know that?

It's as logically flawed as being lost and then, when someone suggests looking at a map, you retort: "can't be looking at maps all the time!" Do you see the logical error?

Again, you're losing me here. What does that have to do with what I've posted?

You hurt yourself if you won't acknowledge the errors and try to actually learn to think, instead of merely believing that you've learned it.

What errors did I make?

Your main error is to assume that people cannot think contradictory thoughts. Psychologists for decades have known about what they call "cognitive dissonance." From Wikipedia we have:

In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory information and the mental toll of it. Relevant items of information include a person's actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, values, and things in the environment.

So yes, there really are atheists who can believe in God.