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Are you a moral person?

untermensche

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Dictators in the workplace are not needed. You cannot prove they are needed.

The Spanish proved they are not and that is why all the dictators attacked them.

Including the capitalist dictators.

A dictator only rules a whole country. We might lovingly call the boss of our company a dictator, but he isn't one. Since he's not above the law.

A dictatorship is a power structure.

There can be governmental dictatorships.

And there can be dictators in a business.

It all depends on the power structure.

Being able to escape a power structure does not make it less than a dictatorial power structure. To be within it means submitting totally to the whims of the dictators. You submit or leave.

Some call that freedom.
 

fromderinside

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We have the Spanish Anarchists and a great modern writer who came upon them.

You mean the guy who blew off his head in Idaho? Now that is a great writer who had a mythical handle on reality.

Orwell is considered one of the great minds of the 20th Century.

Maybe if the rest of the world was as nice as what he saw with the Anarchists he would not have killed himself.

Well there you go. When one speaks of anarchy not Orwell, but, Hemingway comes to my mind. Shame it doesn't come to yours.  Democratic Socialism is an Orwell thing not like anarchy or any hyphenated anarchy that comes to mind.

To wit:
Anarcho-syndicalism (also referred to as revolutionary syndicalism)[1] is a theory of anarchism that views revolutionary industrial unionism or syndicalism as a method for workers in capitalist society to gain control of an economy and with that control influence in broader society. Syndicalists consider their economic theories a strategy for facilitating worker self-activity and as an alternative co-operative economic system with democratic values and production centered on meeting human needs. *

*  Anarcho-syndicalism

Please note that leftist republican (Orwell's preferred approach) are counterpoint to anarchists.

You have wrapped yourself around an axel so tight it's taken away all your intellectual oxygen.

Got any more straws?
 

untermensche

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Well there you go. When one speaks of anarchy not Orwell, but, Hemingway comes to my mind.

Anarchy?

This is what Orwell has to say about it.

re; Mairin Mitchell's book Storm over Spain:

"Her book is valuable for a number of reasons, but especially because, unlike almost all English writers on Spain, she gives a fair deal to Spanish Anarchist. The Anarchists and Syndicalists have been persistently misrepresented in England, and the average English person still retains his eightneen-ninetyish notion that Anarchism is the same thing as anarchy....

Please note that leftist republican (Orwell's preferred approach) are counterpoint to anarchists.

This is almost a sentence in English. What it means is beyond me.

You have wrapped yourself around an axel so tight it's taken away all your intellectual oxygen.

I have opposed dictatorship in principle and in practice. That is: liberating the mind.

This is hand waving nonsense.

An insane defense of dictatorship.
 

fromderinside

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You seem to be confusing political realities with movement actions and positions. So the revolution wound up with a dictatorship. So what? That result has no bearing on either principles or players who lost out. Orwell was an admirer of Spain's republicans left which finally became a conviction in democratic socialism by the late thirties. That's a fact. Read the wiki articles in my post, on both, if you are confused by a sentence.

First paragraph of Wiki article on Orwell includes

George Orwell, was an English novelist, essayist, journalist and critic whose work is marked by lucid prose, awareness of social injustice, opposition to totalitarianism and outspoken support of democratic socialism. *

I bet you'd vote Manaport not guilty because he's a Trump player rather than he's been proven an obviously very unethical and criminal person.

You operate the same way with your heros as well. I care for them so little that I leave it to you to explain to the populi who I mean.

* Not a headline, but, definitely above the fold.
 
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untermensche

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Orwell can't be pigeon-holed to fit some Wikipedia explanation.

This is what Orwell actually wrote.

"As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 116
 

fromderinside

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...and if you read the wiki article you'll find he explored the entire scene between his arrival in Spain, form which your quote arises, and the dictatorship of Franco. You'll also note a pretty thorough treatment in the wiki article on Orwell. They do seem to present a unified total vision of his growth and preferences which leads me to believe there are reasons for putting his political beliefs re Spain in the first paragraph of the Orwell article.

You are wasting your nickel on a bad reading.
 

DrZoidberg

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Orwell can't be pigeon-holed to fit some Wikipedia explanation.

This is what Orwell actually wrote.

"As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 116

Ehe... yeah... who cares about context? Why not lift everything out of context? That'll increase clarity.
 

untermensche

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Orwell can't be pigeon-holed to fit some Wikipedia explanation.

This is what Orwell actually wrote.

"As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 116

Ehe... yeah... who cares about context? Why not lift everything out of context? That'll increase clarity.

The context was what was called the Spanish Civil war.

This is something Orwell said about himself.

As opposed to something others say about him.
 

untermensche

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...and if you read the wiki article you'll find he explored the entire scene between his arrival in Spain, form which your quote arises, and the dictatorship of Franco. You'll also note a pretty thorough treatment in the wiki article on Orwell. They do seem to present a unified total vision of his growth and preferences which leads me to believe there are reasons for putting his political beliefs re Spain in the first paragraph of the Orwell article.

You are wasting your nickel on a bad reading.

You are trying to tell me that I should take what others say about Orwell over what he said about himself.

Go try to sell that shit somewhere else.
 

untermensche

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Seeing this constant defense of dictatorship is getting nauseating to me.

I truly despise the defenders of dictatorship. They, not the dictators make it possible.

The worms that fully submit to the apish dictators make it possible.

I can respect those who submit because of necessity but don't like it.
 

DrZoidberg

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Seeing this constant defense of dictatorship is getting nauseating to me.

I truly despise the defenders of dictatorship. They, not the dictators make it possible.

The worms that fully submit to the apish dictators make it possible.

I can respect those who submit because of necessity but don't like it.

ha ha ha HA HA HA HA

Nobody here is defending dictatorships. Nobody. It's all in your head
 

untermensche

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Seeing this constant defense of dictatorship is getting nauseating to me.

I truly despise the defenders of dictatorship. They, not the dictators make it possible.

The worms that fully submit to the apish dictators make it possible.

I can respect those who submit because of necessity but don't like it.

ha ha ha HA HA HA HA

Nobody here is defending dictatorships. Nobody. It's all in your head

A dictatorial power structure is a dictatorship. An organization of humans where all real power is in the hands of one individual or a small group is a dictatorship.

The average corporation is as rigid a dictatorship as has ever existed. A deliberate dictatorship. Designed so those at the top can steal from all below.

The blindness of indoctrination is not an argument.

Or an excuse for an adult.
 

DrZoidberg

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Seeing this constant defense of dictatorship is getting nauseating to me.

I truly despise the defenders of dictatorship. They, not the dictators make it possible.

The worms that fully submit to the apish dictators make it possible.

I can respect those who submit because of necessity but don't like it.

ha ha ha HA HA HA HA

Nobody here is defending dictatorships. Nobody. It's all in your head

A dictatorial power structure is a dictatorship. An organization of humans where all real power is in the hands of one individual or a small group is a dictatorship.

The average corporation is as rigid a dictatorship as has ever existed. A deliberate dictatorship. Designed so those at the top can steal from all below.

The blindness of indoctrination is not an argument.

Or an excuse for an adult.

I know how you've conflated being an authority with being a dictator. I think it's bullshit, and hyperbole. Not playing that game. Quit the straw man
 

untermensche

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A dictatorial power structure is a dictatorship. An organization of humans where all real power is in the hands of one individual or a small group is a dictatorship.

The average corporation is as rigid a dictatorship as has ever existed. A deliberate dictatorship. Designed so those at the top can steal from all below.

The blindness of indoctrination is not an argument.

Or an excuse for an adult.

I know how you've conflated being an authority with being a dictator. I think it's bullshit, and hyperbole. Not playing that game. Quit the straw man

I am describing a real power situation in the real world accurately.

Most companies are designed to be rigid dictatorships. If you are in one you follow orders from above or you try to leave somehow. There is no other option in dictatorships.

I refuse to live in your fantasy world where we are blind to power dynamics all around us.

Especially when we see the incredible damage having this kind of power in the hands of humans does.

The next step in human progress, if we survive capitalism, is to eliminate unneeded dictatorships in the workplace.
 

DrZoidberg

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A dictatorial power structure is a dictatorship. An organization of humans where all real power is in the hands of one individual or a small group is a dictatorship.

The average corporation is as rigid a dictatorship as has ever existed. A deliberate dictatorship. Designed so those at the top can steal from all below.

The blindness of indoctrination is not an argument.

Or an excuse for an adult.

I know how you've conflated being an authority with being a dictator. I think it's bullshit, and hyperbole. Not playing that game. Quit the straw man

I am describing a real power situation in the real world accurately.

Most companies are designed to be rigid dictatorships. If you are in one you follow orders from above or you try to leave somehow. There is no other option in dictatorships.

I refuse to live in your fantasy world where we are blind to power dynamics all around us.

Especially when we see the incredible damage having this kind of power in the hands of humans does.

The next step in human progress, if we survive capitalism, is to eliminate unneeded dictatorships in the workplace.

I refuse to play your loaded-word-game. It's disengenous. Just because I refuse to use your out of proportion words doesn't mean I'm blind to how power structures influence our society.
 

untermensche

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I am describing a real power situation in the real world accurately.

Most companies are designed to be rigid dictatorships. If you are in one you follow orders from above or you try to leave somehow. There is no other option in dictatorships.

I refuse to live in your fantasy world where we are blind to power dynamics all around us.

Especially when we see the incredible damage having this kind of power in the hands of humans does.

The next step in human progress, if we survive capitalism, is to eliminate unneeded dictatorships in the workplace.

I refuse to play your loaded-word-game. It's disengenous. Just because I refuse to use your out of proportion words doesn't mean I'm blind to how power structures influence our society.

This is nothing but childish whining.

A dictatorship is a power structure.

And they are all over the place.

Denial of the reality around you is not an argument.

- - - Updated - - -

If you actually read the article you will find he went with Republican left. So your self self-serving snippet is just dust in the wind.

He was with them but his heart was with the Anarchists.

You have not defended dictatorship with any of this..
 

fromderinside

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You got it all wrong. I'm just bashing the idea of social anarchist state. If you get off the money train and concentrate on humans working together to improve things you might come up with democratic socialism instead of dictator or strong dominate weak thinking as the only option to every man is an island.
 

untermensche

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There is no idea of an Anarchist state.

There are Anarchist principles and how they would be expressed would be different depending on who expressed them.

We see capitalist principles in action.

Principles like dictatorships in human relationships are acceptable.

We see how this is usually expressed in places like Haiti and Guatemala and Indonesia and Mexico.

Luckily for people in the US and Europe union activity has modified capitalism to the point where many live decently.

But in the US the power of unions are dead which means progress for workers is dead.

You cannot make progress for all if you allow dictators to decide where to go and who will get what.

They will only allow progress for themselves.

And we see how much progress the sick dictators of business have made over the last few decades.

And we see what they did to the economy.

Destroyed the lives of millions a couple of times while escaping on their golden parachutes.
 

untermensche

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Dictatorial capitalism is the system in Denmark.

It is not close to Anarchism.
 

fromderinside

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Houston. We have a problem. Somewhere between dictatorial capitalism and anarchism there resides democratic socialism. Either you don't have concepts in hand or wyou don't want to have them in hand. In both instances you are an illustration of Trump traits. So, for now, you are just going to be called a Trumpist.
 

steve_bank

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The power to the people social anacrasidts never deem to have a grasp of history.

The founders rejected direct democracy for POTU and federal lawmaking S because it would lead to anarchy and chaos. The question then was given humans as they are how best to limit the power of a chief executive. Representative govt in the states works well. Elected and appointed officials can and are removed through recall by the people. Many sta5tes have referndums that can place an issue on the ballot outside of legislatures.

It has broken down on the federal level for many reasons.

The anarchists think no structure will be the most just and fair, but you still have the same old human beings who are fallible. You need decision making even for anarchists, that leads to divisions and politics, and power plays. Eventually it would come full circle. It is inevitable on a large scale.
 

untermensche

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Socialism is where the government owns the means of production.

It has no relation to dictatorial capitalism or democratic Anarchism.
 

steve_bank

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Socialism is where the government owns the means of production.

It has no relation to dictatorial capitalism or democratic Anarchism.

Real world socialism is a mix of free markets and govt control of economies. China evolved from communism to socialism.
 

untermensche

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China is a totalitarian dictatorship.

And it has a capitalist economy.

There is no conflict because capitalism as it exists is set around the dictatorial model.
 

steve_bank

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China is a totalitarian dictatorship.

And it has a capitalist economy.

There is no conflict because capitalism as it exists is set around the dictatorial model.

It is nit a dictatorship. It is authorterian. The chief executive is answerable to the central commitee and does not have absolute power.
 

untermensche

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China is a totalitarian dictatorship.

And it has a capitalist economy.

There is no conflict because capitalism as it exists is set around the dictatorial model.

It is nit a dictatorship. It is authorterian. The chief executive is answerable to the central commitee and does not have absolute power.

Who does the "central committee" take orders from?

A dictatorship is a structure of power where all real power, the power to actually do something, is in the hands of an individual or small group.

The modern corporation is as rigid a dictatorship as humans have ever devised.

They are immoral power structures.

Besides being incredibly destructive.
 

untermensche

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Central committee takes orders by putting finger in the air in their communities checking on how political winds are blowing there.

That is not taking orders.

Taking orders means you either leave somehow or comply.

If you can chose what you will listen to and what you will not you are not taking orders.
 

untermensche

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Dictatorial power structures are what exists in the world. All around us.

And these dictators are destroying many things.
 

DrZoidberg

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Dictatorial power structures are what exists in the world. All around us.

And these dictators are destroying many things.

You remind me of the feminist Andrea Dworkin who famously claimed that because the penis penetrates the vagina during sex, all sex is by definition rape. A lot of people found her argument hard to follow. A bit like I'm finding your arguments hard to follow
 

untermensche

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What off the wall shit comes to your mind has nothing to do with me.

You have no more arguments in favor of dictatorship I see.

You now have switched to pretending they are not all around us.

Have you ever seen the power structure of a corporation?

You are behaving as if you were born yesterday.

"Dictatorial power structure in a corporation? Wow, that is news to me."
 

DrZoidberg

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What off the wall shit comes to your mind has nothing to do with me.

You have no more arguments in favor of dictatorship I see.

You now have switched to pretending they are not all around us.

Have you ever seen the power structure of a corporation?

You are behaving as if you were born yesterday.

"Dictatorial power structure in a corporation? Wow, that is news to me."

I don't support dictatorship. I have never said I do. What I have said is that you call a lot of things dictatorships when they aren't.

Any corporation is a bitch to the whims of the market. I see no dictatorship there.
 

fromderinside

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Central committee takes orders by putting finger in the air in their communities checking on how political winds are blowing there.

That is not taking orders.

Taking orders means you either leave somehow or comply.

If you can chose what you will listen to and what you will not you are not taking orders.

NSRR*. That's exactly my point. It's not a dictatorship.

*no shit red ryder
 

untermensche

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What off the wall shit comes to your mind has nothing to do with me.

You have no more arguments in favor of dictatorship I see.

You now have switched to pretending they are not all around us.

Have you ever seen the power structure of a corporation?

You are behaving as if you were born yesterday.

"Dictatorial power structure in a corporation? Wow, that is news to me."

I don't support dictatorship. I have never said I do. What I have said is that you call a lot of things dictatorships when they aren't.

Any corporation is a bitch to the whims of the market. I see no dictatorship there.

Your blindness is not an argument.

A dictatorship is a power structure.

And yes one dictatorship could potentially be competing with another.

That makes two dictatorships competing. Like the monarchy in Spain competed with the monarchy in England.

Pretending the world is not what it is is a game for children.

We have sick dictatorships all around us and they are not only immoral they are highly destructive. They are destroying the planet.
 

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At the bottom as I understand it there are local elections like for mayor. As you move higher up it becomes more selective.

At the top you are invited to join what is loosely the central committee. The presudent comes out if that. From what I read prefernce is given to those who trace to Mao's recvolutiionaries.The one thing the Chinese leadership is terrified of is a counter revolution and a replay of the Cultrural Revolution. The top leadership is responsive to the people in a general way. They know they have to raise living standards.At the top a series of 5 year plans are developed for national development and they are very good at executing to plan. They perform better than our politics ridden federal govt. The Chinese are very pragmatic.

The Chinese leadership is probaly more ethical and moral regading their country than we are. You won't see them shitting on each other or degrading their own people.

The Nazis were a dictatorship. uyba was a dictatorship under Fidel.
 

untermensche

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At the bottom as I understand it there are local elections like for mayor. As you move higher up it becomes more selective.

At the top you are invited to join what is loosely the central committee. The presudent comes out if that. From what I read prefernce is given to those who trace to Mao's recvolutiionaries.The one thing the Chinese leadership is terrified of is a counter revolution and a replay of the Cultrural Revolution. The top leadership is responsive to the people in a general way. They know they have to raise living standards.At the top a series of 5 year plans are developed for national development and they are very good at executing to plan. They perform better than our politics ridden federal govt. The Chinese are very pragmatic.

The Chinese leadership is probaly more ethical and moral regading their country than we are. You won't see them shitting on each other or degrading their own people.

The Nazis were a dictatorship. uyba was a dictatorship under Fidel.

Who ordered the tanks into Tiananmen Square?

That's how ethical the leaders of China are.

They executed the leaders of people asking for a little freedom.

The cream of their people.
 

steve_bank

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At the bottom as I understand it there are local elections like for mayor. As you move higher up it becomes more selective.

At the top you are invited to join what is loosely the central committee. The presudent comes out if that. From what I read prefernce is given to those who trace to Mao's recvolutiionaries.The one thing the Chinese leadership is terrified of is a counter revolution and a replay of the Cultrural Revolution. The top leadership is responsive to the people in a general way. They know they have to raise living standards.At the top a series of 5 year plans are developed for national development and they are very good at executing to plan. They perform better than our politics ridden federal govt. The Chinese are very pragmatic.

The Chinese leadership is probaly more ethical and moral regading their country than we are. You won't see them shitting on each other or degrading their own people.

The Nazis were a dictatorship. uyba was a dictatorship under Fidel.

Who ordered the tanks into Tiananmen Square?

That's how ethical the leaders of China are.

They executed the leaders of people asking for a little freedom.

The cream of their people.

Who ordered the National Guard onto the Kent State campus who shot students?
 

untermensche

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They did a lot more than that.

They bombed Cambodia into the stone age creating the power vacuum that allowed Pol Pot to gain power.

Nasty bastards head capitalist nations.
 

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They did a lot more than that.

They bombed Cambodia into the stone age creating the power vacuum that allowed Pol Pot to gain power.

Nasty bastards head capitalist nations.

Meh... USA is more guilty than that. When Norodom Sihanouk (king of Cambodia and an exceedingly capable ruler) went to China (1970) to seek an alliance with Mao, Lon Nol staged a coup back home. Whether or not instigated by the CIA is a bit murky. But USA immediately gave him support. Which makes them just as guilty as if they would have. Lon Nol was an incompetent ruler. His incopetence is what created the opening the Khmer Rouge exploited.

The bombing of Cambodia is more like frosting on that cake.
 

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Maybe had the allies continued with the war to end tyranny (WWII) by bringing down the Soviets after the fall of Germany there would have never been the problems in China or SE asia.

History can be linked forever you know.

Maybe there would have been no rituals nor art had that little enclave been wiped out about 65000 years ago.

Where would morality be without them.
 

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Maybe if the Soviets had continued and taken out the US a lot more Vietnamese and Cambodians would have lived?

Doesn't make dictatorship moral.

Nothing can make dictatorship moral.

You either care or don't care, that is all.
 

untermensche

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It is a human made structure of power.

A structure where all real power is in the hands of a minority.

A structure where if you are not one of the dictators you either follow orders to the letter or you leave. There is no other choice.
 

steve_bank

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It is a human made structure of power.

A structure where all real power is in the hands of a minority.

A structure where if you are not one of the dictators you either follow orders to the letter or you leave. There is no other choice.

Right on brother! Power to the people.
 

steve_bank

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John Lennon wrote a song about that.



Contrary to his radical avant guard image, he was a wealthy bourgeois aristocrat, a modern version.

'power to the people' came out as a slogan of black civil rights, along with a raised clenched fist.
 

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Basic Beliefs
Rationality (i.e. facts + logic), Scepticism (not just about God but also everything beyond my subjective experience)
Do you see yourself as a moral and ethical person in daily life? If so what guides you and why?

Is lying by word or omission in the work place ok? Taking pens or copy paper? Taking unfair advantage of someone?

We're all moral beings (or very nearly all).

But unfortunately we're all fucked up in one way or another. Morally perfect people are either liars or idiots. Hmm. Sorry, they are both liars and idiots.

Morality is like our sense of logic. We can use it if we feel like it or just ignore it if it's more convenient and otherwise go on with our lives because we feel we have to.

This is not even debatable.
EB
 
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