Are you a moral person?

[DrZoidberg]

One is a dictator turning others into his servant.

The other is the servant of others.

If you see no distinction that is amazing.

Many leaders are trapped in dictatorial roles in current top-down economic structures.

Yeah... I'm a pretty amazing guy. Thanks for noticing.

Just stop babbling. You don't get to decide how these words are used, or their implications. You are all over the map. Lol... "dictatorial power".... If you're the political leader of a dictatorship than that would be true. Otherwise not.

No.

You are babbling.

I am trying to straighten things out.

I am seeking clarity.

You are seeking a cloud of confusion.

The Spanish Anarchists had a motto "No Bosses".

They did not mean they did not want leaders.

You live in a boss society.

And you don't know the difference between a boss and a leader because of it.

We reach clarity when we use the same words in the same way. If you make up new uses for normal words that only apply in your own head, then that makes understanding eachother very complicated. Don't you agree?

We both live in the west. We live in the same society.

 

[untermensche]

No.

You are babbling.

I am trying to straighten things out.

I am seeking clarity.

You are seeking a cloud of confusion.

The Spanish Anarchists had a motto "No Bosses".

They did not mean they did not want leaders.

You live in a boss society.

And you don't know the difference between a boss and a leader because of it.

We reach clarity when we use the same words in the same way. If you make up new uses for normal words that only apply in your own head, then that makes understanding eachother very complicated. Don't you agree?

We both live in the west. We live in the same society.

I exist in and beyond my culture.

You want different words to mean the same thing.

That is confusion not clarity.

You exist in a culture that confuses this deliberately.

The first task is to define these words accurately.

You must bring clarity to the world. It is not there already.

Accepting without question what the prevailing culture merely says about things is not clarity.

 

[fromderinside]

You can't turn somebody into your tool in a moral manner.

A boss looks at others as tools to serve him.

A leader looks at themselves as a tool to serve others.

They are distinct.

Yet as we see some have a problem with the distinction.

They somehow think self-serving bosses are the same thing as leaders.

Unfortunately we can turn somebody into a personal tool in a moral manner because most people accept that morality is more than a personal thing, that it is generalizable by contact with others.

What the hell is distinct? Perspective is required to make distinctions and perspectives are like telescopes that can be adjusted to one's own liking.

your boss is as you believe her to be. That is your problem.

Distinction is not a problem it is something under one's control. Adjust yours and we can agree.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No.

You are babbling.

I am trying to straighten things out.

I am seeking clarity.

You are seeking a cloud of confusion.

The Spanish Anarchists had a motto "No Bosses".

They did not mean they did not want leaders.

You live in a boss society.

And you don't know the difference between a boss and a leader because of it.

We reach clarity when we use the same words in the same way. If you make up new uses for normal words that only apply in your own head, then that makes understanding eachother very complicated. Don't you agree?

We both live in the west. We live in the same society.

I exist in and beyond my culture.

I think you need to travel more. It's amazing how much travelling has taught me about my own culture and how I've been influenced by it. If you think you're beyond culture you are clearly just ignorant. Nobody is beyond the culture within which they live. That's just the kind of thing people who have never travelled say.

You want different words to mean the same thing.

No... I want both of us to use the words correctly! That's all I want. In this case you need to add qualifiers. Just using the word boss or leader by itself isn't clear enough. So just stop doing that.

That is confusion not clarity.

You exist in a culture that confuses this deliberately.

I'm a middle-class academic urbanite. I take pride in expressing myself clearly. It's also a major part of my job. So let's agree to disagree.

The first task is to define these words accurately.

These are basic words that you can look up in any dictionary. I did before I opened my mouth on this issue. Did you?

You must bring clarity to the world. It is not there already.

That's what qualifiers are for.

Accepting without question what the prevailing culture merely says about things is not clarity.

What? I think that is exactly what it is. Nobody's communication is benefitted from rejecting dictionaries. In what insane world does that enhance clarity of communication?

I suggest you stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking. It's not helping you

 

[Bronzeage]

Leadership is one thing.

A hierarchy of power is something completely different.

A leader leads. They explain to people which is the best way to go and why. The best way for everybody not just the leader. Then they try to persuade them to go that way.

As opposed to a boss.

That orders people around to best serve him.

The difference between a leader and a boss. One sends jobs overseas and one does not.

Something those raised in dictatorial systems sometimes have a problem with.

An anarchist is a terrible two

Petty dictators, bosses, like the president, are the children. And those that support them when there is no need.

No Anarchist ever said they want to get rid of leaders.

The motto of the Spanish Anarchists was "No bosses" however.

- - - Updated - - -

<SNIP>.

The real world has real problems and few easy solutions. As I said above, we can do away with hierarchies and leaders who don't know everyone by name and face, by returning to hunter gatherer societies. This also solves the problem of dissatisfied idealists, because they will be too busy digging up edible roots to realize how good they have it.

 

[steve_bank]

Leadership is one thing.

A hierarchy of power is something completely different.

A leader leads. They explain to people which is the best way to go and why. The best way for everybody not just the leader. Then they try to persuade them to go that way.

As opposed to a boss.

That orders people around to best serve him.

The difference between a leader and a boss. One sends jobs overseas and one does not.

Something those raised in dictatorial systems sometimes have a problem with.

An anarchist is a terrible two

Petty dictators, bosses, like the president, are the children. And those that support them when there is no need.

No Anarchist ever said they want to get rid of leaders.

The motto of the Spanish Anarchists was "No bosses" however.

- - - Updated - - -

<SNIP>.

The real world has real problems and few easy solutions. As I said above, we can do away with hierarchies and leaders who don't know everyone by name and face, by returning to hunter gatherer societies. This also solves the problem of dissatisfied idealists, because they will be too busy digging up edible roots to realize how good they have it.

That about sums it up. The question is then given us irrational emotional humans how do we best maximize comfort, freedom, and security for the most people.

 

[untermensche]

You can't turn somebody into your tool in a moral manner.

A boss looks at others as tools to serve him.

A leader looks at themselves as a tool to serve others.

They are distinct.

Yet as we see some have a problem with the distinction.

They somehow think self-serving bosses are the same thing as leaders.

Unfortunately we can turn somebody into a personal tool in a moral manner because most people accept that morality is more than a personal thing, that it is generalizable by contact with others.

The morality is not in what people are helpless to resist.

When you have a boss society, basically a form of dictatorship, most people have no choice. They have to submit to be the tool of one boss or another. Or make it on their own.

There is no other option.

What the hell is distinct?

Yes those raised in dictatorship have trouble understanding the difference. There is a cognitive dissonance.

A leader is looking after the people they lead. They are not trying to get an advantage on them or get a bigger reward. Their reward is in leading.

A boss is looking after themselves and trying to get the biggest piece of the pie. And other people are merely tools to that end.

None of this should be read to mean a boss can't be a kind person. They can even care about the people they are using like tools.

There were many kind kings and princes.

Monarchy is still as despicable.

 

[untermensche]

I exist in and beyond my culture.

I think you need to travel more.

From what crevice was this pulled?

You don't know what you are talking about.

No... I want both of us to use the words correctly!

Then you need to learn the distinction between these two concepts.

It is a matter of focus.

A leader is focused on the needs of the people they lead. They actually lead.

A boss is looking after themselves and using others to serve them. They are ordering people to do things. Not leading anyone.

A boss hires leaders to get people to accomplish something.

Trump is a boss. Nothing but a grotesque boss. He had to hire a group that had leaders in it to get a building constructed.

The Spanish Anarchists knew what they were doing when they said "No bosses".

We do not need them.

 

[untermensche]

Leadership is one thing.

A hierarchy of power is something completely different.

A leader leads. They explain to people which is the best way to go and why. The best way for everybody not just the leader. Then they try to persuade them to go that way.

As opposed to a boss.

That orders people around to best serve him.

The difference between a leader and a boss. One sends jobs overseas and one does not.

Something those raised in dictatorial systems sometimes have a problem with.

An anarchist is a terrible two

Petty dictators, bosses, like the president, are the children. And those that support them when there is no need.

No Anarchist ever said they want to get rid of leaders.

The motto of the Spanish Anarchists was "No bosses" however.

- - - Updated - - -

<SNIP>.

The real world has real problems and few easy solutions. As I said above, we can do away with hierarchies and leaders who don't know everyone by name and face, by returning to hunter gatherer societies. This also solves the problem of dissatisfied idealists, because they will be too busy digging up edible roots to realize how good they have it.

We cannot do well without leaders.

We do very poorly when all we have are bosses.

There is a distinction.

A distinction that leads from servitude to freedom.

Like the move from monarchy to democracy.

There are always those who resist change of any kind.

The monarchy had many sycophants and people who cried we needed it.

1/3rd of the US was totally devoted to the King and resisted revolution.

Those that cry we need bosses are just as blind.

 

[Bronzeage]

The real world has real problems and few easy solutions. As I said above, we can do away with hierarchies and leaders who don't know everyone by name and face, by returning to hunter gatherer societies. This also solves the problem of dissatisfied idealists, because they will be too busy digging up edible roots to realize how good they have it.

We cannot do well without leaders.

We do very poorly when all we have are bosses.

There is a distinction.

A distinction that leads from servitude to freedom.

Like the move from monarchy to democracy.

There are always those who resist change of any kind.

The monarchy had many sycophants and people who cried we needed it.

1/3rd of the US was totally devoted to the King and resisted revolution.

Those that cry we need bosses are just as blind.

Okay, what is your plan?

 

[fromderinside]

Playing with the foolish

The morality is not in what people are helpless to resist.

When you have a boss society, basically a form of dictatorship, most people have no choice. They have to submit to be the tool of one boss or another. Or make it on their own.

There is no other option.

Yes those raised in dictatorship have trouble understanding the difference. There is a cognitive dissonance.

A leader is looking after the people they lead. They are not trying to get an advantage on them or get a bigger reward. Their reward is in leading.

A boss is looking after themselves and trying to get the biggest piece of the pie. And other people are merely tools to that end.

None of this should be read to mean a boss can't be a kind person. They can even care about the people they are using like tools.

There were many kind kings and princes.

Monarchy is still as despicable.

Let me get this straight. One has no options with respect to boss but one cannot have tendencies to adopt other's morality. How does that play?

Either one is at the mercy of others or one is required to have agency among others. My view is neither are true so both of your assertions must be wrong.

If one leads and people are helpless but to follow then one is, by your definition, a boss. Yet a boss is different from a people because she has control of some lever as the result of some advantage. Why are not such advantages, in the abstract, not available to everyone if we are all human beings?

You seem to be introducing the zero sum game. What is the basis for this conditional setup? Are some more enlightened, have birthright, or, some other magic blessing that some deity bestowed on them. That's stupid, especially on an atheist forum.

Oh, and the dictator who has complete control doesn't, by fiat, have complete power, but, has choice to be this or that without conflicting with the machine than makes her boss?

Finally you post an moral opinion. Monarchs are despicable.

By what right are you permitted to assert such? Oh you have choice? You provide none in your castle of make believe. So you are a boss? See. Your logic is a grenade going off of it's own volition.

Your illogic consumes your argument.

 

[untermensche]

Step one in any recovery is fully acknowledging the problem.

 

[Bronzeage]

Step one in any recovery is fully acknowledging the problem.

Oh for crying out loud. I asked for a plan, not a platitude. What's the difference between acknowledging the problem and whining?

What's step 2, 3, and 4?

 

[untermensche]

What was the difference between wanting to get rid of the King and whining?

All I see is a bunch of sycophants to the King.

They need to see the light.

 

[untermensche]

The solution to bosses in the workplace is the same solution to getting rid of them in government.

Democracy instead.

 

[Bronzeage]

What was the difference between wanting to get rid of the King and whining?

All I see is a bunch of sycophants to the King.

They need to see the light.

In the case of this discussion, there is no difference. You have stated a goal, but haven't put forth how we get there.

Is this just another Bill and Ted "Be excellent to each other," sermon?

 

[untermensche]

What was the difference between wanting to get rid of the King and whining?

All I see is a bunch of sycophants to the King.

They need to see the light.

In the case of this discussion, there is no difference. You have stated a goal, but haven't put forth how we get there.

Is this just another Bill and Ted "Be excellent to each other," sermon?

Read how the Spanish Anarchists did it.

It starts with people understanding the difference between a leader and a boss.

Some ideas are before their time.

Monarchy persisted for centuries and capitalism is stronger with much better propaganda.

And in many parts of the capitalist world people have some prosperity because of unions in spite of the nature of capitalism.

In the US that is reversing. It is moving towards third world status, not universal prosperity.

Not to mention the nations the US dominates to allow that prosperity for some in the US.

 

[fromderinside]

You need to define your terms before you prescribe an action plan. Since you fail to understand distinguish you are fixed in platitudes at best. One way to build a plan is to fishbone the problem. Maybe you could try that. Obstacle, overcome obstacle, next obstacle, etc. Your first problem is to define boss.

 

[steve_bank]

Didn't know how the thread would go. There has been some substantive material. At least relative to the usual philosophy thread.

 

[untermensche]

You need to define your terms before you prescribe an action plan. Since you fail to understand distinguish you are fixed in platitudes at best. One way to build a plan is to fishbone the problem. Maybe you could try that. Obstacle, overcome obstacle, next obstacle, etc. Your first problem is to define boss.

The way it happened in Spain was after first strong and widespread unions were established.

After the unions ran things long enough they understood they had no need of the dictators taking the lions share.

The US is moving the other way, even though the need is still present, unions have been killed. They didn't die on their own. They were constantly attacked undermined, jobs sent overseas, and killed. Deliberately.

The US is moving away from freedom.

Now is not the time to try to increase freedom by eliminating dictators.

Now is the time to stop the dictators from taking all gains made in the last 100 years.