Are you racist?

[Tom Sawyer]

/mod

 

[ronburgundy]

And therefore, no individual can be racist under this definition.

Wrong, but thank you for playing.

Blindly dogmatic, logic-denying counter-argument, as always

 

[ronburgundy]

These sorts of threads always make me really sad.

Me too. They show how devoid of intellectual integrity much of the left is, even when their cause is morally just.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That's not actually a definition of racism. It's a definition of a subset of racism called systemic racism. When the author later talked about people being prejudiced against people because of their race, he was defining racism.

No, he was defining racial prejudice. This is a distinct thing from racism, which is the combination of racial prejudice with a worldview that incorporates racial prejudice as an axiom of truth.

For example: the guy who says "Mexicans are lazy and smell bad" is expressing a prejudice. He may meet 100 Mexicans who are not lazy and smell like flowers and rid himself of that prejudice through experience. This contrasts with the guy who says "Mexicans were created by God to be servants to white people, which is why they are lazy and smell bad." This is a systematic belief that makes predictions about the world that reinforces racial prejudice and converts those prejudices into a description of objective reality far removed from the perceptions that caused them.

Even Systematic Racism requires the presence of a positive worldview in order to really be that. A lot has been written, for example, about the racial insensitivity and confrontational attitude of the Chicago States Attourney's office towards blacks and latinos. This doesn't make it all the way to racism, however; the prosectors don't have an actual coherent worldview that would justify their prejudices, in fact quite the contrary, it seems as if they treat minorities with antipathy simply because it is a fashionable and politically expedient thing to do when you are a prosecutor (the best way to befriend a bully is to start picking on one of his victims).

I believe that systemic prejudice is also a thing that can be identified and can be solved with a different set of solutions than full blown systemic racism. Prejudice, after all, can be reformed through education and experience; racism can only be reformed through conversion, and that depends entirely on the willingness of the racist.

While those are potential ways that the word could have been defined, they're not the way that the word is actually defined. Many people are racists due to lack of interaction with other racial groups and they lose those prejudices when they actually meet them, but that doesn't mean that they were somehow less racist beforehand. Racism is the word for the broad category of racial prejudices and something distinct from it. If someone says that Mexicans are lazy and smell bad, you don't need to delve into the motivations behind that statement to determine whether or not he's a racist - you already know enough to make that determination. You can go further into it to figure out exactly what type of racist he may be, but he already fits into the broad category which the word refers to.

You are also correct that there are different types of solutions for different types of racism. That doesn't change the fact that they all fit under the broader category of the term.

 

[dismal]

If someone says that Mexicans are lazy and smell bad, you don't need to delve into the motivations behind that statement to determine whether or not he's a racist - you already know enough to make that determination.

Don't forget you also need to know whether he has systemic, institutional power.

 

[whichphilosophy]

http://odinsblog.tumblr.com/post/127808197400/28-common-racist-attitudes-and-behaviors

3. Reverse Racism.
A. “People of color are just as racist as white people.”
B. “Affirmative action had a role years ago, but today it’s just reverse racism; now it’s discriminating against white men.”
C. “The civil rights movement, when it began, was appropriate, valuable, needed. But it’s gone to the extreme. The playing field is now level. Now the civil rights movement is no longer working for equality but for revenge.” Or
D. “Black pride, black power is dangerous. They just want power over white people.” (Include here any reference to pride and empowerment of any people of color.)

REALITY CHECK + CONSEQUENCE:

A. Let’s first define racism with this formula:

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic, institutional power.

To say people of color can be racist, denies the power imbalance inherent in racism. Certainly, people of color can be and are prejudiced against white people. That was a part of their societal conditioning. A person of color can act on prejudices to insult or hurt a white person. But there is a difference between being hurt and being oppressed. People of color, as a social group, do not have the societal, institutional power to oppress white people as a group. An individual person of color abusing a white person – while clearly wrong, (no person should be insulted, hurt, etc.) is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism.

B. This form of denial is based on the false notion that the playing field is now level. When the people with privilege, historical access and advantage are expected to suddenly (in societal evolution time) share some of that power, it is often perceived as discrimination.

C+D. C is a statement by Rush Limbaugh. Though, clearly he is no anti-racist, both c+d follow closely on the heels of “reverse racism” and are loaded with white people’s fear of people of color and what would happen if they gained “control.” Embedded here is also the assumption that to be “pro-black” (or any other color) is to be anti-white. (A similar illogical accusation is directed at women who work for an end to violence against women and girls. Women who work to better the lives of women are regularly accused of being “anti-male.”)

The formula above only provides one working definition of racism. There are many shades of this definition which is rooted in the same concept.

The Oxford Dictionary provides http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

The Advanced Oxford Learners Dictionary provides different shades of the meaning where I have quoted one below.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/racism
the belief that some races of people are better than others

Here are some more definitions (rooted in the same concept)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

noun 1.
the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief

Sometimes there are political systems which are racist but that does not mean racism is by definition a political system.

That is to say racism can exist with or without a political structure regardless of which group or individual is practicing it against another.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Wrong, but thank you for playing.

Blindly dogmatic, logic-denying counter-argument, as always

People who begin with partial quotes and the omission of explanation from said quote, have very little room to complain about the responses they get.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If someone says that Mexicans are lazy and smell bad, you don't need to delve into the motivations behind that statement to determine whether or not he's a racist - you already know enough to make that determination.

Don't forget you also need to know whether he has systemic, institutional power.

Fair point. The guy in my story is the CEO of a major bank who makes a lot of large political contributions.

He's also heavily involved in funding off-Broadway plays by aspiring directors due to pleasant memories of going to such productions with his parents in his youth and likes hiring high-end prostitutes so that he can pee on them. I don't know if either of those are in any way related to the main point, but I'm just trying to add a bit more layers to the character developement.

 

[dismal]

Don't forget you also need to know whether he has systemic, institutional power.

Fair point. The guy in my story is the CEO of a major bank who makes a lot of large political contributions.

He's also heavily involved in funding off-Broadway plays by aspiring directors due to pleasant memories of going to such productions with his parents in his youth and likes hiring high-end prostitutes so that he can pee on them. I don't know if either of those are in any way related to the main point, but I'm just trying to add a bit more layers to the character developement.

Character development is nice, but you have omitted the only relevant detail. Whether you have systemic, institutional power is based on the color of your skin.

A white guy living in a van down by the river has it. A Black guy who is a bank president and pees on high-end prostitutes does not.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Fair point. The guy in my story is the CEO of a major bank who makes a lot of large political contributions.

He's also heavily involved in funding off-Broadway plays by aspiring directors due to pleasant memories of going to such productions with his parents in his youth and likes hiring high-end prostitutes so that he can pee on them. I don't know if either of those are in any way related to the main point, but I'm just trying to add a bit more layers to the character developement.

Character development is nice, but you have omitted the only relevant detail. Whether you have systemic, institutional power is based on the color of your skin.

A white guy living in a van down by the river has it. A Black guy who is a bank president and pees on high-end prostitutes does not.

OK, his mother was white but she was also a drunken slut (basically just the town bicycle - everybody had a ride) and he has no idea what the race of his father is. So, while he self-identifies as a white man, he might actually be a minority.

 

[ronburgundy]

Blindly dogmatic, logic-denying counter-argument, as always

People who begin with partial quotes and the omission of explanation from said quote, have very little room to complain about the responses they get.

Nothing in the rest of your post alters the logical implication of the part I quoted. I realize that you were trying to use the fact you stated to support some other point, but that has no bearing on the more relevant logical implication of your stated fact that I accurately explicated. Since you have no ability to critique that logical explication, you instead put up the pretense that since I didn't quote all the irrelevant parts of your post, I must have misrepresented you, even though you can offer zero evidence that is the case.

 

[whichphilosophy]

If someone says that Mexicans are lazy and smell bad, you don't need to delve into the motivations behind that statement to determine whether or not he's a racist - you already know enough to make that determination.

Don't forget you also need to know whether he has systemic, institutional power.

No.

 

[dismal]

Don't forget you also need to know whether he has systemic, institutional power.

No.

Yes.

Let’s first define racism with this formula:

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic, institutional power.

 

[arkirk]

No.

Yes.

Let’s first define racism with this formula:

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic, institutional power.

The racism is there whether or not the racist has any power at all. Racially determined hate is racism whether it is empowered or not.

 

[Toni]

No.

Yes.

Let’s first define racism with this formula:

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic, institutional power.

In the US, white people benefit from systemic institutional power afforded to white people. Even poor white people. If you grow up poor, you might be able to better your socioeconomic status through hard work and education and gain enough wealth that no one would know that you grew up poor. If you are black, you can become very well educated and very wealthy but your wealth and your education will not change the color of your skin or the perception of your neighbors that you must be breaking into your own home or that you could not possibly afford to buy the purse you asked to see in the upscale store.

I grew up as the daughter and grand-daugther of poor people, although my parents made it to the middle class (barely) by the time I was old enough to remember much. The truth is that I have never been looked at suspiciously when I went shopping in stores, even in upscale department stores, even wearing some pretty beat up jeans and sneakers --NOT name brand ones, either, nor when I was in government buildings doing research, or riding public transportation, or even pulled over by a police officer who let me off with a warning although I will admit I was exceeding the speed limit. I'm white and while I've never asked for any privilege because of my skin color, I've been cut all kinds of breaks simply because of the way I look, which is white.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, that's because black people tend to be victims of the systemic racism in our society. That doesn't make it the only kind of racism.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

While those are potential ways that the word could have been defined, they're not the way that the word is actually defined. Many people are racists due to lack of interaction with other racial groups and they lose those prejudices when they actually meet them, but that doesn't mean that they were somehow less racist beforehand. Racism is the word for the broad category of racial prejudices and something distinct from it.

I'm inclined to disagree, but you do have a point.

These sorts of threads always make me really sad. Not surprised, though. I grew up in a family of bigots and racists of varying degrees. One relative (may he RIP) was actually a member of the Klan. As in KKK. You know: white sheets, burning crosses. I am ignoring the 'friend request' of a family member because his facebook page makes my stomach churn just too much, although I loved his father, who was a sweet man, may he also RIP. I have a cousin who was like a sibling, who adopted her child from a Central American country and whose nieces and nephews were born to her sister in law, who hailed from that same Central American country. Whose FB and whose husband's FB pages are filled with a lot of anti-immigrant posts, anti-Hispanice memes, and so on. That's not even counting parents and siblings. So, I'm a little bit desensitized to the overwhelming sense of grief that overt and covert racism often inspire in me.

The absolute honest truth is that none of the family members mentioned above, including the one who was a member of the Klan, thought/thinks of himself/herself as a racist or even a bigot. They just thought/think they are 'realistic.' Or that the joke/meme was 'funny.'

I have never met a single person who thought of himself or herself as a racist. Including members of the Klan.

Which is why the responses on this thread do not surprise me.

Which is really sad.

I had to go back and re-read this post because something about it stuck out in my mind as I thought about it over the course of the day.

It's interesting that I know a handful of truly racist people in my day to day life, people of various races and ethnicities. They express it in different ways and it comes from different places. But not ONE of them would ever admit to actually being a racist; they consider their opinions to be informed, or "realistic" or "knowing history" or some such.

My mother has a particular case of tunnel vision in this regard: although she is very friendly and cooperative with coworkers, friends and associates, she is very quick to ascribe properties of arrogance, entitlement or willful ignorance to white people as a generalization. There is, in her mind, a distinction between "white people" as an abstraction and "White people" as a subset of her friends and colleagues; the former has an almost mythological component, the latter is just a bunch of people she knows and works with and (mostly) gets along with because they have almost everything else in common except for their race.

This is kind of the point I was making upthread about the difference between racism and prejudice. I don't actually believe that a tendency to prejudge people truly amounts to racism, especially since most people don't take those pre-judgements to the point of actual hatred or active discrimination. It's mainly just a set of assumptions about a person you just met based on what you assume you know about their background; a prejudiced person usually has no problem replacing those assumptions with real information if and when it becomes available. IMO, an actual racist is someone who RESISTS correcting their prejudices and clings to their assumptions despite evidence to the contrary.

Put another way: EVERYONE makes prejudgements about people they meet for the first time (even with someone of the same race: you assume at first glance that they probably come from the same background you do and think the same way) but most people have learned from experience not to treat their assumptions as reliable information. Racists, on the other hand, cling to their assumptions and have a strong belief in the rightness of their assumptions DESPITE evidence to the contrary. The reason racists do not think they ARE racists is because they think their prejudices are universally true, and that people who don't think like them are either deluded or dishonest.

 

[bilby]

I'm inclined to disagree, but you do have a point.

These sorts of threads always make me really sad. Not surprised, though. I grew up in a family of bigots and racists of varying degrees. One relative (may he RIP) was actually a member of the Klan. As in KKK. You know: white sheets, burning crosses. I am ignoring the 'friend request' of a family member because his facebook page makes my stomach churn just too much, although I loved his father, who was a sweet man, may he also RIP. I have a cousin who was like a sibling, who adopted her child from a Central American country and whose nieces and nephews were born to her sister in law, who hailed from that same Central American country. Whose FB and whose husband's FB pages are filled with a lot of anti-immigrant posts, anti-Hispanice memes, and so on. That's not even counting parents and siblings. So, I'm a little bit desensitized to the overwhelming sense of grief that overt and covert racism often inspire in me.

The absolute honest truth is that none of the family members mentioned above, including the one who was a member of the Klan, thought/thinks of himself/herself as a racist or even a bigot. They just thought/think they are 'realistic.' Or that the joke/meme was 'funny.'

I have never met a single person who thought of himself or herself as a racist. Including members of the Klan.

Which is why the responses on this thread do not surprise me.

Which is really sad.

I had to go back and re-read this post because something about it stuck out in my mind as I thought about it over the course of the day.

It's interesting that I know a handful of truly racist people in my day to day life, people of various races and ethnicities. They express it in different ways and it comes from different places. But not ONE of them would ever admit to actually being a racist; they consider their opinions to be informed, or "realistic" or "knowing history" or some such.

My mother has a particular case of tunnel vision in this regard: although she is very friendly and cooperative with coworkers, friends and associates, she is very quick to ascribe properties of arrogance, entitlement or willful ignorance to white people as a generalization. There is, in her mind, a distinction between "white people" as an abstraction and "White people" as a subset of her friends and colleagues; the former has an almost mythological component, the latter is just a bunch of people she knows and works with and (mostly) gets along with because they have almost everything else in common except for their race.

This is kind of the point I was making upthread about the difference between racism and prejudice. I don't actually believe that a tendency to prejudge people truly amounts to racism, especially since most people don't take those pre-judgements to the point of actual hatred or active discrimination. It's mainly just a set of assumptions about a person you just met based on what you assume you know about their background; a prejudiced person usually has no problem replacing those assumptions with real information if and when it becomes available. IMO, an actual racist is someone who RESISTS correcting their prejudices and clings to their assumptions despite evidence to the contrary.

Put another way: EVERYONE makes prejudgements about people they meet for the first time (even with someone of the same race: you assume at first glance that they probably come from the same background you do and think the same way) but most people have learned from experience not to treat their assumptions as reliable information. Racists, on the other hand, cling to their assumptions and have a strong belief in the rightness of their assumptions DESPITE evidence to the contrary. The reason racists do not think they ARE racists is because they think their prejudices are universally true, and that people who don't think like them are either deluded or dishonest.

Racism = racial prejudice + acting on that prejudice in word or deed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes.

Let’s first define racism with this formula:

Racism = racial prejudice + systemic, institutional power.

The racism is there whether or not the racist has any power at all. Racially determined hate is racism whether it is empowered or not.

Agreed--but what you are missing is that a lot of people on the left say it has to be racial + power to be racism. Otherwise they would have to admit that there's a hell of a lot of racism amongst the black community.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Racism = racial prejudice + acting on that prejudice in word or deed.

A definition elegant in its simplicity!

So "systemic racism" would be "racial prejudice + codifying prejudice as organizational policy."