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Arrested Development: The Pre-school to Suspension Pipeline

One thing I have noticed in this threads, is the extraordinary excuses/rationales to move the discussion away from racism. Sometimes, the horse really is just a horse, not a zebra.
I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.
 
One thing I have noticed in this threads, is the extraordinary excuses/rationales to move the discussion away from racism. Sometimes, the horse really is just a horse, not a zebra.
I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.


I don't think we need to look at society as a whole to decide whether we believe that the little boy who was suspended (and his brothers) are receiving harsher treatment for similar or lesser offenses committed by other children. It seems, from the article linked, that indeed certain boys receive harsher consequences for misbehavior than other boys. Other mothers--not just the child in question's mother--noted the difference. Since only the black child received a harsh consequence compared with other children who were white, it seems reasonable to look at skin color and how this particular school and personnel perceive children of color, and particularly boys who are black.

The larger questions are: is this an isolated case? Statistics tell us:

Black children, particularly black male children receive far greater number of school suspensions compared with white children.

http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releas...-schools-reveals-troubling-racial-disparities

The data released today reveals particular concern around discipline for our nation's young men and boys of color, who are disproportionately affected by suspensions and zero-tolerance policies in schools. Suspended students are less likely to graduate on time and more likely to be suspended again. They are also more likely to repeat a grade, drop out, and become involved in the juvenile justice system.

The 2011-2012 release shows that access to preschool programs is not a reality for much of the country. In addition, students of color are suspended more often than white students, and black and Latino students are significantly more likely to have teachers with less experience who aren't paid as much as their colleagues in other schools.

The 2011-12 school year was the first time the CRDC collected data on preschool discipline and the first year that all public schools reported data separately for Native-Hawaiian/Pacific Islanders. As a result, the CRDC shows that racial disparities in discipline begin in the early years of schooling: Native-Hawaiian/Pacific Islander kindergarten students are held back a year at nearly twice the rate of white kindergarten students.

"This rich information allows us to identify gaps and cases of discrimination to partner with states and districts to ensure equal access to educational opportunities," said Catherine E. Lhamon, assistant secretary for civil rights. "From Native American tribal nations to inner city barrios, all of our children deserve a high quality education."

Black teens and adults are arrested far more often for similar or lesser offenses compared with white counterparts and are convicted more often and the sentences they receive are longer and harsher. There are lots of statistics which back this up.

https://criminaljustice.ncbar.org/newsletters/criminaljusticefeb11/racialdisparities

http://www.americanbar.org/publicat...cial_disparities_criminal_justice_system.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/04/us/racial-disparity-in-arrests.html?_r=0

In fact, racial disparities are part of what is driving the movement to legalize marijuana in some states.

http://www.mn2020.org/issues-that-m...arities-and-injustice-in-minnesotas-marijuana
 


It is very easy for some people to look at crime stats and prison stats, see a disproportionate number of black people represented and then say, "Blacks just commit more crime."

But three year olds?

Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?

Before those among us who think black people are "culturally" predisposed to bad behavior answer, and you know who you are, keep in mind that everyone here has experienced three year old children, in all the colors of the rainbow. We have experienced them in classrooms, in supermarkets, on airplanes, in restaurants and in our homes.

So chose your words well.
I don't know that I would go so far as to say they're 'choosing' to misbehave, but sure, they're acting out. My guess is that the majority of the suspended black kids are being raised in black families where discipline, interpersonal treatment, and attention varies comparatively different to others. Go out to eat and watch the interaction between children and parents. It's not about race, but there might be identifiable trends that coincide.

If we compare race, we tend to see race as a factor--either, someone's a racist or there's some racial deficiency. Why can't we compare the factors precipitating the behavior --like how the children are loved for in their daily lives. Like I said, go out and eat.


Or: why can't we consider that indeed, some people are treated differently than other people based solely on the color of their skin?

It is my observation that this is true. This is backed up by many studies and compilations of statistics.

You are correct: once a child is considered to be a 'trouble maker' by a teacher or school, that child is more likely to be disciplined and their behavior is often judged more harshly. In my experience, this holds true for all children.

This does not preclude race as a criteria for deciding which child is a trouble maker. I find it interesting that most people in this thread are perfectly ok with the saying that boys get in trouble more at school than girls do and that sexism is likely one reason. But an awful lot of people balk at the idea that race as well as gender often determines treatment of children in schools.

Your contention that black children who are suspended from school are being raised badly seems to be highly suspect and unfounded on actual fact.
 
I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.
I don't think we need to look at society as a whole to decide whether we believe that the little boy who was suspended (and his brothers) are receiving harsher treatment for similar or lesser offenses committed by other children.
I didn't say we did. I said we need to explore at what level there is this issue? Is it merely punishments or does it go further, as in are children being assessed with different bars, is race a reason? If so, what needs to be done about this. The OP link alleges that black students are already at a disadvantage based on initial subconscious or conscious stereotyping. That would imply that awareness training is absolutely imperative in order to keep from treating one set of students different than the others as doing otherwise at the Pre-K level would seem to imply a disadvantage to students were treated unfairly, reducing the value of self-worth and fairness which can lead to apathy, something we shouldn't even be tolerating among three and four year olds.

The good news is, the children of minorities know they are just a few great TD passes or receptions away from being able to enjoy the white privilege when it comes to enforcement of laws. So maybe there is hope after all.

In fact, racial disparities are part of what is driving the movement to legalize marijuana in some states.

http://www.mn2020.org/issues-that-m...arities-and-injustice-in-minnesotas-marijuana
Getting off-topic, but certainly a great point regarding the white world and the black world. A bunch of white people smoke marijuana... "we need to legalize this shit!" If only blacks smoked it, probably would lead to life imprisonments, just like the relation of punishments regarding cocaine (white crime) and crack (black crime).
 
It's not reckless to think it might; it's reckless to immediately jump to the conclusion that it does (or to jump to the conclusion that it doesn't,for that matter).

so whenever disparate racial outcomes happen in a place with a history of discrimination and documented current discriminatory practices in place, not until every other possible avenue is exhausted, should race be considered as a (not necessarily the) contributing factor?

You didn't just "consider [race] as a contributing factor". Your OP preemptively dismissed anything other than racism by the teachers as implausible when you asserted skepticism that 3 year old kids of different races could possibly act differently in ways that would account for their greater suspensions in pre-school.
Without any evidence, you closed your mind to the many plausible alternatives in order to pretend that your ideologically based conclusion was valid.

even when a white student throws a chair and hits and sends a kid to the hospital and is NOT suspended while a black child in the same school throws a chair, hits no one, and is suspended? Really?

Your claim that the other kid was in the same school is unwarranted. The party was for a classmate of the author's son, but there is no reason to think that the only kids and mothers invited to this boy's party were only from his own class. In fact, that is rather unlikely. There were likely friends of this birthday boy or just friends of his mother that were there whose kids went to other schools. In addition, even if he was from the same school, the odds are that it was a different teacher that saw the incident. Also, the odds are almost zero that the larger context surrounding the incidents were identical, including factors related to provocation, long term history of the kids involved, remorse of the kids afterwards, etc.. The object being thrown doesn't happen spontaneously in a vacuum but is merely the "climax" of the the full story and the full story is why one kid is suspended and another not. Also, you are wrong that the white kid "threw a chair", he threw "something" which means it clearly was not a chair or the author would have said that. Odds are it was much smaller, lighter and less generally dangerous than throwing a chair (since most things a kid can pick up are) and could easily have been something the often would and should have in his hand that he was playing with rather than object he went and picked up for the sole purpose of throwing at another kid. The resulting injury isn't relevant to the punishments since whether one kid has worse aim or the object doesn't happen to reach its intended victim because it so big and heavy isn't something that should be rationally factored in. In sum, the odds are near zero that the two situations were at all comparable and should have resulted in the same response, so to treat them as though they were and thus attribute the different response to race (which is what you have done) is irrational and clearly motivated by a bias to reach your ideologically preferred conclusion.

Might race have had something to do with the difference in these anecdotal stories? Sure, but given the countless other factors that almost certainly differed that could easily account for the difference, factors that we know with as much or more scientific support regularly impact such judgements and perceptions. Thus, the odds that it was race are about 1/the countless number of other factors, which equals "not very high".
 
One thing I have noticed in this threads, is the extraordinary excuses/rationales to move the discussion away from racism. Sometimes, the horse really is just a horse, not a zebra.
I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.
We have the 3 to 1 ratio of suspended black boys to white boys. That is not an anecdotal case. I do think the behavioral expectations are probably unrealistic, but I think the ratio is large enough to indicate that race is a factor. Now, should the US and the public wait 20 years while social scientists perform enough proper randomized experiments to isolate all of the relevant factors or would it make sense to perhaps think about the racial aspect of this situation and perhaps do something about it?
 
The question about the statistical trend of more suspensions of black kids is separate from the irrationality of assuming that this mother's anecdotes reveal racism by her son's teachers. I addressed the latter above. They two are relate only in that any rational analysis of either requires considering the countless other factors that could impact suspension decisions. With the anecdote, the factors are boundless because they need not have any correlation to the race of the kids at all.
With the research stats, the factors are numerous but bounded by the requirement that they have some correlation with race in order to explain the differences in probability. However, that still leaves many many dozens of highly plausible factors generally known to impact such perceptions and judgments. Note that the causal factors might be related to the kids' actions before, during, or after the event, or not all related to these and instead related to the parents actions before, during, or after the event, differences in the teachers, the school, the other kids in the class, the class sizes, the classroom environment, and on and on.

Here is a very short list of plausible factors that we know correlate with race and that existing research predicts would ultimate impact suspension rates:
1) Single parent
2) Young mother
3) Parental incarceration
4) financial stress
5) Parental education
6) Amount and quality of daycare prior to preschool.

Note that these factors and many others could differ between anyone involved in the suspension incident including the suspended child, their classmates, the parents, the teachers, and the administrators. Less well trained teachers and administrators are more likely to create environments that create behavior problems plus react to problems with suspensions when not warranted.
I would bet that black pre-schoolers go to schools and have teachers where these factors come into play not only for themselves and their parents but their teachers, classmates, and schools. I would bet that black pre-schoolers are much more likely to have black teachers and that they are doing much of the suspending. Are the black teachers racist against black kids or are they on average less trained to handle the situation. Or maybe teachers of different races handle the situations differently for cultural reasons related to their own parenting style since more punishment oriented authoritarian styles are more frequent among blacks (which could itself be largely an SES thing since lower SES tend to be more authoritarian).

Is racism by teachers and administrators a partial contributor to the differential suspension rates? Certainly it is plausible and perhaps even likely in some subset of cases, but it likely it is a minor contributor overall given all the many factors that are predicted to create differential suspension rates, even if no such teacher racism existed or even if teachers bent over backwards to be biased in favor of their black students. Thus, for any single incident, like that of the OP mother, the odds are higher that is was one or more of these many other factors and not teacher racism.
 
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I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.
We have the 3 to 1 ratio of suspended black boys to white boys. That is not an anecdotal case. I do think the behavioral expectations are probably unrealistic, but I think the ratio is large enough to indicate that race is a factor. Now, should the US and the public wait 20 years while social scientists perform enough proper randomized experiments to isolate all of the relevant factors or would it make sense to perhaps think about the racial aspect of this situation and perhaps do something about it?
That is exactly what I said we should do. Maybe wait 30 to 40 years just to be sure. :rolleyes:
 
I personally think that these issues need to be thoroughly reviewed. There are way too many variables here.


  • Is there a difference regarding behavior of the children to begin with?
  • Are children being unequally assessed by the staff?
  • Are children being unequally treated by the staff?
  • Is this typical at this preschool, at preschools in general? (how endemic is it?)

These are the questions we must be answering first. Whether there is a source for misbehaving is actually further down the road as we must first assess whether there is any misbehaving to start with. This helps develop a course of action that would be required, ie, we have a different problem with staff if they are punishing unequally verses assessing unequally.

We are given an anecdotal case and are being unfairly required to extrapolate way too much from the case.
We have the 3 to 1 ratio of suspended black boys to white boys. That is not an anecdotal case.

We also have a mountain of evidence that countless other factors greatly increase the odds of suspension. So, the general stats don't point any more to race in this particular case than to other factors. Which means the OP anecdote is nothing more than that, and the odds are much higher that is was 1 of the countless other differences that are either completely unrelated to race or only related to race indirectly and not at all a case of racial bias by the teacher.

I do think the behavioral expectations are probably unrealistic, but I think the ratio is large enough to indicate that race is a factor.
No, the size of a correlation is not evidence that the correlation is due to direct causality. They indicate nothing more than a correlation which given the massive evidence of other causal factors that could produce the correlation, it is not reasonable to infer that race is playing significant role based upon that data.
The data that implies race likely plays a role sometimes and thus accounts for "some" (meaning only more than zero) of that correlation comes from controlled experiments showing causal effects of race on similar judgments in the general population. Though even many of those "experiments" are highly flawed, some are sound enough to know that race is impacting such judgments for some people some of the time and odds are that some of them are pre-school teachers. Thus, it is likely that the effect of race is more than zero, but still could be a minor factor in the 3:1 stats.



Now, should the US and the public wait 20 years while social scientists perform enough proper randomized experiments to isolate all of the relevant factors or would it make sense to perhaps think about the racial aspect of this situation and perhaps do something about it?

IOW, should we act now out of ignorance based upon unscientific thinking and misconceptions like yours about the causal implications of large correlations?
Sounds like a great plan. Maybe (or even likely) we can manage to create more problems than we fix as ignorance based emotional reactions like yours usually do.

IF we act now to rectify the 3:1 ratio, then those actions should be directed at the potential causes in proportion to what current science says is their likely contribution. That means only a minor amount of focus upon potential racial bias by the teachers and most of the focus upon the collection of other factors, which include the actual greater behavioral problems of black kids due to the many factors I mentioned in prior posts, and general training of teachers in the schools that poorer and disproportionately black parents send their kids to. Rational action also means that we should not react to any individual case of suspension of a black kid as though it were racism, since odds are that it was one or more of the many other factors.
 
The question about the statistical trend of more suspensions of black kids is separate from the irrationality of assuming that this mother's anecdotes reveal racism by her son's teachers. I addressed the latter above. They two are relate only in that any rational analysis of either requires considering the countless other factors that could impact suspension decisions. With the anecdote, the factors are boundless because they need not have any correlation to the race of the kids at all.
With the research stats, the factors are numerous but bounded by the requirement that they have some correlation with race in order to explain the differences in probability. However, that still leaves many many dozens of highly plausible factors generally known to impact such perceptions and judgments. Note that the causal factors might be related to the kids' actions before, during, or after the event, or not all related to these and instead related to the parents actions before, during, or after the event, differences in the teachers, the school, the other kids in the class, the class sizes, the classroom environment, and on and on.

Here is a very short list of plausible factors that we know correlate with race and that existing research predicts would ultimate impact suspension rates:
1) Single parent
2) Young mother
3) Parental incarceration
4) financial stress
5) Parental education
6) Amount and quality of daycare prior to preschool.

Note that these factors and many others could differ between anyone involved in the suspension incident including the suspended child, their classmates, the parents, the teachers, and the administrators. Less well trained teachers and administrators are more likely to create environments that create behavior problems plus react to problems with suspensions when not warranted.
I would bet that black pre-schoolers go to schools and have teachers where these factors come into play not only for themselves and their parents but their teachers, classmates, and schools. I would bet that black pre-schoolers are much more likely to have black teachers and that they are doing much of the suspending. Are the black teachers racist against black kids or are they on average less trained to handle the situation. Or maybe teachers of different races handle the situations differently for cultural reasons related to their own parenting style since more punishment oriented authoritarian styles are more frequent among blacks (which could itself be largely an SES thing since lower SES tend to be more authoritarian).

Is racism by teachers and administrators a partial contributor to the differential suspension rates? Certainly it is plausible and perhaps even likely in some subset of cases, but it likely it is a minor contributor overall given all the many factors that are predicted to create differential suspension rates, even if no such teacher racism existed or even if teachers bent over backwards to be biased in favor of their black students. Thus, for any single incident, like that of the OP mother, the odds are higher that is was one or more of these many other factors and not teacher racism.


Based on my experience with preschoolers and parties: usually, the kids invited to the party all are from the same preschool kindergarten class, with perhaps a neighbor child who isn't in the same class added into the mix. It is a good assumption that the kids are all in the same class.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that only a small subset of school suspensions are due to racism on the part of teachers and administrators.

I lived in the upper midwest for more than 20 years. It is where most of my kids were raised; two of them started preschool here and they all attended elementary school, middle and high school and university in the upper midwest. I spent a great deal of time working as a volunteer in all of their schools and also worked in an anti-poverty program which was directed at preschoolers and their families. Being the upper midwest, the population is almost entirely white, with immigrants from S.E. Asia and Native Americans outnumbering blacks in the smaller towns where I raised my kids.

The only setting where I did not personally witness racial profiling and racism was in the anti-poverty program, which actually served only one black family, one Hispanic family, a handful of recent immigrants from S.E. Asia, with the rest being white children and families, almost all of whom had lived in this area for several generations. It was a specific core principle of the program and the preschool to respect and celebrate diversity and they did that well.

In the other school settings, the racism was usually much more subtle and mostly took the form of some seemingly benign assumptions that black and Native American children are less academically prepared, are more likely to come from broken homes, are more likely to have behavior problems. This assumption was attached to the child perceived to be black or Native American without regard to the actual preparedness or behavior of the child himself. Black children, especially male, were judged more harshly in terms of small misbehaviors. The children of certain well known, well connected white families were given every break there was, including placement in advanced classes. Among the more 'benign' behaviors was a tendency to 'feel sorry' for students of color,quiet clucks of tongues bemoaning how much ground they had to make up! Even when the child was the offspring of two black university professors holding advanced degrees. Worse was the assumption that kids of color were gang bangers as was any black male over the age of 10 seen walking around the neighborhoods.

My kids noticed quickly that racism on the part of other white students against black, Native or Asian students was basically ignored by white administrators in the high school. This included wearing some fairly racist t-shirts.

It isn't at all surprising to me that the upper Midwest has some of the greatest disparities in educational outcomes between white and black students. No one burns crosses or pickets if a black child shows up in class. They just feel sorry for the kid and channel them into remedial classes that are not needed or appropriate--because of the assumption that the kid is behind the other kids.

Of course such assumptions are also made of any child of a single parent, especially a pretty young single mother, who is assumed to have conceived her child out of wedlock and to be on welfare regardless of the actual facts of the case. Her child is assumed to be lacking in discipline and positive male roles in his life, whether this is the case or not.

Kids generally live up to the expectations placed on them. If you expect them to do badly, they do. If you expect them to behave badly, they do.
 
We have the 3 to 1 ratio of suspended black boys to white boys. That is not an anecdotal case.

We also have a mountain of evidence that countless other factors greatly increase the odds of suspension.
Honestly, if we are going to do this right, we need to see whether a suspension is required in the first place. Where you start out is that if these is a suspension then the kid fucked up. And if there wasn't a suspension, there was no fuck up.

For the most trite of anecdotal evidence, I remember in Kindergarten playing with something. A kid walked up and just took it from me. I was accosted by the teacher when I went to get it back. So we can't let our perspective be influenced merely by the fact that a suspension was or wasn't put forth. Honestly, the fact that suspensions are happening at all seems to indicate that the Pre-K system is wholly fucked! I can only imagine the most wild of scenarios where such a thing would be necessary.
 
The question about the statistical trend of more suspensions of black kids is separate from the irrationality of assuming that this mother's anecdotes reveal racism by her son's teachers. I addressed the latter above. They two are relate only in that any rational analysis of either requires considering the countless other factors that could impact suspension decisions. With the anecdote, the factors are boundless because they need not have any correlation to the race of the kids at all.
With the research stats, the factors are numerous but bounded by the requirement that they have some correlation with race in order to explain the differences in probability. However, that still leaves many many dozens of highly plausible factors generally known to impact such perceptions and judgments. Note that the causal factors might be related to the kids' actions before, during, or after the event, or not all related to these and instead related to the parents actions before, during, or after the event, differences in the teachers, the school, the other kids in the class, the class sizes, the classroom environment, and on and on.

Here is a very short list of plausible factors that we know correlate with race and that existing research predicts would ultimate impact suspension rates:
1) Single parent
2) Young mother
3) Parental incarceration
4) financial stress
5) Parental education
6) Amount and quality of daycare prior to preschool.

Note that these factors and many others could differ between anyone involved in the suspension incident including the suspended child, their classmates, the parents, the teachers, and the administrators. Less well trained teachers and administrators are more likely to create environments that create behavior problems plus react to problems with suspensions when not warranted.
I would bet that black pre-schoolers go to schools and have teachers where these factors come into play not only for themselves and their parents but their teachers, classmates, and schools. I would bet that black pre-schoolers are much more likely to have black teachers and that they are doing much of the suspending. Are the black teachers racist against black kids or are they on average less trained to handle the situation. Or maybe teachers of different races handle the situations differently for cultural reasons related to their own parenting style since more punishment oriented authoritarian styles are more frequent among blacks (which could itself be largely an SES thing since lower SES tend to be more authoritarian).

Is racism by teachers and administrators a partial contributor to the differential suspension rates? Certainly it is plausible and perhaps even likely in some subset of cases, but it likely it is a minor contributor overall given all the many factors that are predicted to create differential suspension rates, even if no such teacher racism existed or even if teachers bent over backwards to be biased in favor of their black students. Thus, for any single incident, like that of the OP mother, the odds are higher that is was one or more of these many other factors and not teacher racism.

Can you explain how and why the marital status of the parent, the parent's level of education, and the age of the mother affect behavior which could result in school suspensions?

Can you explain why it is reasonable to make the assumption that a mother's education level would affect a child's behavior?
 
The question about the statistical trend of more suspensions of black kids is separate from the irrationality of assuming that this mother's anecdotes reveal racism by her son's teachers. I addressed the latter above. They two are relate only in that any rational analysis of either requires considering the countless other factors that could impact suspension decisions. With the anecdote, the factors are boundless because they need not have any correlation to the race of the kids at all.
With the research stats, the factors are numerous but bounded by the requirement that they have some correlation with race in order to explain the differences in probability. However, that still leaves many many dozens of highly plausible factors generally known to impact such perceptions and judgments. Note that the causal factors might be related to the kids' actions before, during, or after the event, or not all related to these and instead related to the parents actions before, during, or after the event, differences in the teachers, the school, the other kids in the class, the class sizes, the classroom environment, and on and on.

Here is a very short list of plausible factors that we know correlate with race and that existing research predicts would ultimate impact suspension rates:
1) Single parent
2) Young mother
3) Parental incarceration
4) financial stress
5) Parental education
6) Amount and quality of daycare prior to preschool.

Note that these factors and many others could differ between anyone involved in the suspension incident including the suspended child, their classmates, the parents, the teachers, and the administrators. Less well trained teachers and administrators are more likely to create environments that create behavior problems plus react to problems with suspensions when not warranted.
I would bet that black pre-schoolers go to schools and have teachers where these factors come into play not only for themselves and their parents but their teachers, classmates, and schools. I would bet that black pre-schoolers are much more likely to have black teachers and that they are doing much of the suspending. Are the black teachers racist against black kids or are they on average less trained to handle the situation. Or maybe teachers of different races handle the situations differently for cultural reasons related to their own parenting style since more punishment oriented authoritarian styles are more frequent among blacks (which could itself be largely an SES thing since lower SES tend to be more authoritarian).

Is racism by teachers and administrators a partial contributor to the differential suspension rates? Certainly it is plausible and perhaps even likely in some subset of cases, but it likely it is a minor contributor overall given all the many factors that are predicted to create differential suspension rates, even if no such teacher racism existed or even if teachers bent over backwards to be biased in favor of their black students. Thus, for any single incident, like that of the OP mother, the odds are higher that is was one or more of these many other factors and not teacher racism.

Can you explain how and why the marital status of the parent, the parent's level of education, and the age of the mother affect behavior which could result in school suspensions?

Can you explain why it is reasonable to make the assumption that a mother's education level would affect a child's behavior?


It is an empirical fact that these factors predict problem behavior. They underlying why isn't actually relevant, though there are plenty of theoretically sound reasons. What matters is that it is an empirical fact that variables other than race that are related to marital status, education, and SES predict behavioral problems in kids. Therefore, by the mere fact that race correlates with these factors means that race is likely to correlate with more behavior problems and thus more punishments related to those behaviors.

BTW, the underlying causal processes are largely the same one's responsible for why blacks commit more of almost type of crime, except for crimes like insider trading and violating EPA rules and other crimes for which you need relatively high levels of wealth or power in order to have the opportunity to commit them.
What you are questioning and skeptical of is the idea that education, parental resources, income, and SES are valid variables that casually impact negative behaviors, willingness to commit crimes, and educational achievement. IOW you are rejecting the non-race reason that most reasonable non-racists would give for things like greater crime rates and lower graduation, IQ, and many other outcomes that blacks fare worse on. You are unwittingly, agreeing with racists that say that when blacks have worse outcomes its because their race makes them less able and not because SES, education, and parental factors have negative impact upon their success.


IOW, imagine we are trying to explain why blacks perform worse on standardized tests, and Loren asked your same question of "Can you explain how and why the marital status of the parent, the parent's level of education, and the age of the mother affect behavior which could result in black kids performing worse on standardized tests." The answer in that case would happen to be consistent with your ideological bias and agenda, so it would be obvious to you. It just so happens that it is a valid answer, so just apply it now to your own question because it applies equally, despite undermining your political agenda in this case.
 
We also have a mountain of evidence that countless other factors greatly increase the odds of suspension.
Honestly, if we are going to do this right, we need to see whether a suspension is required in the first place. Where you start out is that if these is a suspension then the kid fucked up. And if there wasn't a suspension, there was no fuck up.
.

But that is a different question. Replace "suspension" with a different reaction and you will still get racial differences in whatever that reaction is. Yes, maybe almost none of the kids who get suspended should be. OTOH, schools and teachers face far more threats of lawsuits today and are trying to cover their ass. Regardless of what the school response is, we will still have the fact that schools are initiating some type of behavioral corrective measures more often with black kids than white kids. Why is that? Is it objectively more behavioral problems? Are the parents and schools that black kids go to less effective responding to early signs of problems and thus reducing recurrence? Or is it that kids doing the same things in the same context with the same types of teachers and schools are being responded to differently because of their race? The OP and all her supporters here are completely ignoring these other two questions, so they can confidently conclude that the answer to the latter question is "Yes".
 
I lived in the upper midwest for more than 20 years. It is where most of my kids were raised; two of them started preschool here and they all attended elementary school, middle and high school and university in the upper midwest. I spent a great deal of time working as a volunteer in all of their schools and also worked in an anti-poverty program which was directed at preschoolers and their families. Being the upper midwest, the population is almost entirely white, with immigrants from S.E. Asia and Native Americans outnumbering blacks in the smaller towns where I raised my kids.

IOW, all of your vast experience is completely non-representative of the situations in which most black kids are getting suspended, which is in the places where most black kids are. Any racism, no matter how rampant in your "almost entirely white" midwest town would account for about .0001% of the black kids getting suspended, which is mostly happening in mostly black areas where most of the kids in the class are black and many of the teachers are black. The kids being suspended are a fraction of their class, mostly comprised of fellow minorities that are somehow not getting suspended, despite being minority. Thus, the primary causes are clearly not racism by the teacher by things that have some correlation with race but on which black kids differ from each other (which can include their own traits, but also those of their parents, the disciplinary styles of their varied teachers, or the school contexts they are in.

Besides, the fact that you would act skeptical about how SES factors and parenting resources could possibly impact a kids behavior undermines any credibility you have in discerning the variables at play even within your own limited and non-representative personal experiences.
 
Can you explain how and why the marital status of the parent, the parent's level of education, and the age of the mother affect behavior which could result in school suspensions?

Can you explain why it is reasonable to make the assumption that a mother's education level would affect a child's behavior?


It is an empirical fact that these factors predict problem behavior. They underlying why isn't actually relevant, though there are plenty of theoretically sound reasons. What matters is that it is an empirical fact that variables other than race that are related to marital status, education, and SES predict behavioral problems in kids. Therefore, by the mere fact that race correlates with these factors means that race is likely to correlate with more behavior problems and thus more punishments related to those behaviors.

If it is an empirical fact that these factors predict problem behavior, I am sure you will be happy to provide links to journal articles which demonstrate such connection.

BTW, the underlying causal processes are largely the same one's responsible for why blacks commit more of almost type of crime, except for crimes like insider trading and violating EPA rules and other crimes for which you need relatively high levels of wealth or power in order to have the opportunity to commit them.
What you are questioning and skeptical of is the idea that education, parental resources, income, and SES are valid variables that casually impact negative behaviors, willingness to commit crimes, and educational achievement. IOW you are rejecting the non-race reason that most reasonable non-racists would give for things like greater crime rates and lower graduation, IQ, and many other outcomes that blacks fare worse on. You are unwittingly, agreeing with racists that say that when blacks have worse outcomes its because their race makes them less able and not because SES, education, and parental factors have negative impact upon their success.

Why do you believe that blacks commit more of almost any type of crime? In fact, that is not the case:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43


http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...he-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

n 2012, 69.3 percent of all individuals arrested were white, 28.1 percent were black, and 2.6 percent were of other races.
Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2012, 65.2 percent were white, 32.2 percent were black, and 2.5 percent were of other races.
Of all adults arrested in 2012, 69.7 were white, 27.6 percent were black, and 2.7 percent were of other races.
White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race, accounting for 58.7 percent of those arrests.
The percentages of black adults and white adults arrested for murder were similar, with 49.3 percent being black and 48.3 percent being white.
Black juveniles accounted for 51.5 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. White juveniles accounted for 61.6 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
Of the juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 74.0 percent were white.
White juveniles accounted for 55.2 percent of juveniles arrested for aggravated assaults

Can you explain how and why the marital status of the parent, the parent's level of education, and the age of the mother affect behavior which could result in school suspensions?

Can you explain why it is reasonable to make the assumption that a mother's education level would affect a child's behavior?


It is an empirical fact that these factors predict problem behavior. They underlying why isn't actually relevant, though there are plenty of theoretically sound reasons. What matters is that it is an empirical fact that variables other than race that are related to marital status, education, and SES predict behavioral problems in kids. Therefore, by the mere fact that race correlates with these factors means that race is likely to correlate with more behavior problems and thus more punishments related to those behaviors.

If it is an empirical fact that these factors predict problem behavior, I am sure you will be happy to provide links to journal articles which demonstrate such connection.
 
Honestly, if we are going to do this right, we need to see whether a suspension is required in the first place. Where you start out is that if these is a suspension then the kid fucked up. And if there wasn't a suspension, there was no fuck up.
.

But that is a different question. Replace "suspension" with a different reaction and you will still get racial differences in whatever that reaction is.
Little worse in web boarding that having most of a reply ignored in order for a person to respond to a lesser portion of it.
 
Why do you believe that blacks commit more of almost any type of crime? In fact, that is not the case:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

Your own link shows him to be right -- Blacks commit more of almost every type of crime. Take the very first crime in Table 43: Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. 49.7% of arrests. You don't really think that Blacks make up 49.7% of people in America do you??

You are mistaken:

<snip>
BTW, the underlying causal processes are largely the same one's responsible for why blacks commit more of almost type of crime, except for crimes like insider trading and violating EPA rules and other crimes for which you need relatively high levels of wealth or power in order to have the opportunity to commit them.

<snip>


He did not claim that blacks committed a disproportionate number of crimes but that they commit more of almost any type of crime--except rich white people crime.
 
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