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Arrested Development: The Pre-school to Suspension Pipeline

What we do know is that it doesn't matter if more black children behave badly compared to white children.

No, you don't know that from an anecdote any more than I would know it.

What does matter is if the same offense committed by a white child is punished in the same manner and with the same severity as if a black child committed the same offense.

I agree that similar misbehaviour under similar circumstances warrants similar punishments.

In this particular case, it appears that the child in the OP, who happens to be black, was indeed punished more harshly than other children who committed similar or worse offenses. Those other children happen to be white.

I notice the author of the article states the reason for the child's last suspension, but not the reasons for any of the other suspensions. We don't know why her children have been suspended so many times but I suspect that like a good behaviour bond, once you've been suspended once more minor violations warrant further suspensions.

We don't know the circumstances of the (lack of) suspensions of the other children. The woman whose child sent a kid to the hospital though ought to have had her child suspended. I can't think of any circumstances where such a child should be allowed to remain in an environment with other children.

The question then is: why was this particular child punished more harshly?

We don't know why, or even if it was more harsh than similar children in similar circumstances in the same facility. We've been given an anecdote with almost no substance whatever.

People respond to anecdotes but people should be persuaded by data instead.

One thing I did not like about the OP was the inclusion of a picture of her very cute, smiling son in the article. I presume this was meant to prejudice us against thinking he deserved suspensions. I think that if her children have been suspended eight times between them, there was probably a reason.

Since some insist that rates of criminal behavior by adults is relevant to this discussion, then so should be punishment meted out to those convicted of criminal acts. Data demonstrates that black defendents receive prison sentences at rates which exceed those of white defendants for almost all offenses, and that black defendants are more likely than whites to receive the maximum sentence for similar criminal offenses.

And that's a problem with the justice system. Similar crimes under similar circumstances should get similar punishments.

It appears that under our criminal justice system, blacks receive harsher penalties for offenses for which they are convicted compared with whites.

Isn't it reasonable to at least consider that the color of the child's skin had an effect on the way the child was assessed and judged by the teacher and the school?

Yes, but what's the size of the effect? In particular, how much does it explain of the Black-White child suspension difference?

If two three year olds commit the same offense and receive punishments which differ in severity, then that opens the question of why the difference in severity of punishment. If there is a pattern: children with red hair receive harsher punishment than children with blonde hair, for example, one might wonder if the teacher has an unconscious preference for blonde children. If the child who receives the harsher punishment is non-white, it is also reasonable to wonder if the teacher has an unconscious prejudice against non-white children and tends to assess their behavior more harshly.

But we don't know. We don't know how many children this child care facility has suspended and what they've suspended children for. You haven't established there's a pattern.
 
No, you don't know that from an anecdote any more than I would know it.


I think you are misunderstanding me: I am saying that the prevalence of misbehavior by children who are(fill in the blank) should have no bearing on the evaluation of any particular child who belongs to the same (fill in the blank group).

If it is known in a particular school that blonde haired, blue eyed children are almost always excellent singers but poor at math, there is no reason to assume that the blonde haired blue eyed child standing before you should be put in the choir and sent to remedial math. That individual child should be evaluated as an individual.

If it is known that almost all little boys who wear red t-shirts also like to play with fire trucks and also chew gum in class when they aren't supposed to, there is no reason to withhold a fire truck from this particular child for chewing gum in class--unless he actually chews gum in class. And if a little boy or girl wearing a blue shirt is chewing gum in class, they should similarly have some valued privilege removed if that is how discipline for that offense is decided.

When I was a kid, it was well known that girls didn't like to climb trees, catch frogs, were afraid of spiders and insects and couldn't run as fast as a boy could run. Also that girls liked to play with dolls and didn't like to get dirty. And were good at reading but not good at math.

My sisters and I were always the top math student in our class. I loved climbing trees, catching frogs and all manner of insects and spiders, could run as fast as any boy until they all gained several inches in height on me. I did like dolls, read constantly and rarely noticed if I got dirty doing anything I liked doing. A fair number of people, including my mother, tried to limit my choices because I was a girl. Fortunately, my father encouraged me to do what I wanted to do. At least up to a point but that's a whole different story.


What does matter is if the same offense committed by a white child is punished in the same manner and with the same severity as if a black child committed the same offense.

I agree that similar misbehaviour under similar circumstances warrants similar punishments.

In this particular case, it appears that the child in the OP, who happens to be black, was indeed punished more harshly than other children who committed similar or worse offenses. Those other children happen to be white.

I notice the author of the article states the reason for the child's last suspension, but not the reasons for any of the other suspensions. We don't know why her children have been suspended so many times but I suspect that like a good behavior bond, once you've been suspended once more minor violations warrant further suspensions.

We don't know the circumstances of the (lack of) suspensions of the other children. The woman whose child sent a kid to the hospital though ought to have had her child suspended. I can't think of any circumstances where such a child should be allowed to remain in an environment with other children.

Yes, some details are missing, which is disappointing and makes it harder to assess what happened or did not happen.

However, I do not take it as an absolute given that her children were repeatedly suspended for justifiable reasons. It certainly may have been the case. Maybe they were all a rowdy bunch of kids and the teacher suspended them with just cause each time. I would like to believe that is true but I know that teachers are people and often like one child more than another and treat children they like differently than the ones they don't like.

I benefited from this greatly when I was in school. My older sister was a model student--she was very smart, worked hard and was very compliant. As soon as teachers saw my name on the class list, they were prepared to like me and assumed from the very first that I was also very smart and would work hard and be compliant. I didn't do as well with being compliant as my sister but I definitely skated by because they teachers were very much disposed to like me, based on my name and association with my sister.

I was lucky: I saw kids who were considered to be from 'bad' families treated less well. One year, the teacher had a particular dislike for one boy--Mike. I don't really know why. He wasn't mean, or loud and his misbehavior was very minor and typical of boys of that age. But she disliked him intensely and blamed him for any thing that went missing (as far as I knew, he never actually took anything) and any minor vandalism such as a torn poster. This happened even when the corner of a poster was torn on a day he wasn't in class. He actually got sent to the principal for that one. I nearly did as well for pointing out that he was absent that day. Another boy, Billy, she adored. I also didn't understand why. He wasn't particularly bright or nice looking; his manners weren't any different than any other boy. He was actually quite vicious to the one student in our class who was mildly developmentally disabled. The teacher witnessed his bullying of this other child and said and did nothing to correct it or to protect the student. In those days, kids never went home to their parents and complained about the teacher. The assumption was that the parents would always side with the teacher.

In the custom of the day, kids who were ahead in their work were sometimes asked to help the kids who were behind. She asked me to help Mike (the kid she didn't like) because he was 'really behind in his math facts' and 'not very good at math.' Actually, I believed this as well: I saw his papers often had bad grades on them when she passed them back. But in fact, he was quite bright, knew all his math facts and was actually ahead of the class in math. But he knew it didn't matter: the teacher didn't like him. After that year, his family moved and I lost track of him.

The other boy, the one she liked so much: he was also behind and she wanted me to help him. She told me that I earned top scores because I was lucky and that he was just as bright but not so lucky as I was. As it happens, she might have been right--perhaps he was bright and simply didn't apply himself but he certainly didn't seem to know his basic math facts. We went to the same school until graduation although we were never in the same classes again. I took the most advanced classes our small high school offered. He took the easiest he could find and starred in football for the high school. No idea what happened to him after that but he wasn't good enough in football to get a scholarship. He didn't go to university but perhaps to trade school. I never heard.

I know you hate anecdotes. The purpose wasn't to demonstrate that teachers are poor judges of their students or that all teachers are prejudiced unfairly against some students. But some teachers are indeed biased. I doubt that it is conscious. I am certain that my teachers thought I deserved every single break I got but I was never so sure. I know that my own minor misbehavior was often overlooked by the majority of my teachers. And some kids were blamed for things they never did and never could have done.



The question then is: why was this particular child punished more harshly?

We don't know why, or even if it was more harsh than similar children in similar circumstances in the same facility. We've been given an anecdote with almost no substance whatever.

People respond to anecdotes but people should be persuaded by data instead.

People respond to stories rather than data. It's perhaps a fault but the truth is that if we only looked at data, we could easily draw the wrong conclusions. Data only tells you about a group and does not tell you about an individual.

In school, students should be treated as individuals, not as representatives of this demographic or that.


One thing I did not like about the OP was the inclusion of a picture of her very cute, smiling son in the article. I presume this was meant to prejudice us against thinking he deserved suspensions. I think that if her children have been suspended eight times between them, there was probably a reason.

I don't know. Blacks, particularly black males are fairly demonized and seen as being badly behaved future criminals instead of individuals who are unlikely to become criminals. (Most blacks do not become criminals). The cute, smiling face made you see her child as an adorable child, not some anonymous statistic.

I agree that if her kids were suspended 8 times, there was probably a reason. The reasons were probably related to misbehavior but it is also possible that the teacher(s) did not care for the children or the family and viewed those particular children under a more harsh lens.


Since some insist that rates of criminal behavior by adults is relevant to this discussion, then so should be punishment meted out to those convicted of criminal acts. Data demonstrates that black defendents receive prison sentences at rates which exceed those of white defendants for almost all offenses, and that black defendants are more likely than whites to receive the maximum sentence for similar criminal offenses.

And that's a problem with the justice system. Similar crimes under similar circumstances should get similar punishments.

Agreed. Mostly.

It appears that under our criminal justice system, blacks receive harsher penalties for offenses for which they are convicted compared with whites.

Isn't it reasonable to at least consider that the color of the child's skin had an effect on the way the child was assessed and judged by the teacher and the school?

Yes, but what's the size of the effect? In particular, how much does it explain of the Black-White child suspension difference?

What data shows is that in fact black children receive school suspensions far more frequently than white students do for similar offenses. It seems reasonable to look at this closely and to see if it is possible to determine to what extent the difference in suspension rates is due to racism (which I assume is not deliberate on the part of the teacher.)


If two three year olds commit the same offense and receive punishments which differ in severity, then that opens the question of why the difference in severity of punishment. If there is a pattern: children with red hair receive harsher punishment than children with blonde hair, for example, one might wonder if the teacher has an unconscious preference for blonde children. If the child who receives the harsher punishment is non-white, it is also reasonable to wonder if the teacher has an unconscious prejudice against non-white children and tends to assess their behavior more harshly.

But we don't know. We don't know how many children this child care facility has suspended and what they've suspended children for. You haven't established there's a pattern.


There is limited information from the article. On the assumption--and yes that is an assumption, not a fact--that everything is exactly as presented in the article, it does appear that the teacher might have judged the black child more harshly than the white children.

Of course we don't know as a fact. But data suggests that this unequal treatment is widespread and does indeed start at the preschool level.
 
I think you are misunderstanding me: I am saying that the prevalence of misbehavior by children who are(fill in the blank) should have no bearing on the evaluation of any particular child who belongs to the same (fill in the blank group).

Except I've said the exact same thing in this thread, and in a different context in other threads, all to no avail. (Specifically, the affirmative action threads where some people would like to treat all people of one ethnicity exactly alike, and disadvantage all people of another ethnicity).

That individual child should be evaluated as an individual.

I could not agree more. Which is why I object to race-based affirmative action in medical and law schools admissions.

Yes, some details are missing, which is disappointing and makes it harder to assess what happened or did not happen.

No, a lot of details are missing; missing, that is, if we're to draw wide-reaching conclusions from the story.

I know you hate anecdotes.

But I don't hate them. In fact, anecdotes are a good way to open discussion of an issue. But they are not good when they are used to draw wide conclusions about the behaviour of entire societies when such conclusions are completely unjustified by the anecdote. The conclusion could even be true, but it would still not be justified by the anecdote.

People respond to stories rather than data. It's perhaps a fault but the truth is that if we only looked at data, we could easily draw the wrong conclusions. Data only tells you about a group and does not tell you about an individual.

Data are the only way to tell if an individual has been treated fairly compared to others.

If Jane is suspended because she teased another girl about her glasses, you might think that was unfair. Indeed, it seems like a harsh policy. But if the same school suspends students for much lesser offences (like being more than 5 minutes late), then you would not say that Jane is being treated unfairly compared to others.

In school, students should be treated as individuals, not as representatives of this demographic or that.

I couldn't agree more. I'm surprised in fact that you don't agree with me on the affirmative action threads, because that's exactly what I think schools should do: treat individuals as individuals and not as representatives of some demographic!

I don't know. Blacks, particularly black males are fairly demonized and seen as being badly behaved future criminals instead of individuals who are unlikely to become criminals. (Most blacks do not become criminals). The cute, smiling face made you see her child as an adorable child, not some anonymous statistic.

I agree that if her kids were suspended 8 times, there was probably a reason. The reasons were probably related to misbehavior but it is also possible that the teacher(s) did not care for the children or the family and viewed those particular children under a more harsh lens.

But we don't know. We don't know if it was rampant prejudice or completely justified or somewhere in between (probably somewhere in between).

What data shows is that in fact black children receive school suspensions far more frequently than white students do for similar offenses.
What data? Do you mean instead:

What data shows is that in fact black children receive school suspensions far more frequently than white students do for similar offenses
 
Except I've said the exact same thing in this thread, and in a different context in other threads, all to no avail. (Specifically, the affirmative action threads where some people would like to treat all people of one ethnicity exactly alike, and disadvantage all people of another ethnicity).

I have been waiting for you to bring up affirmative action. We simply disagree about what affirmative action does and does not do and whether it is necessary or helpful. My position (very simplistically stated) is that it is still necessary because students have unequal access to good educational programs starting with preschool.

That individual child should be evaluated as an individual.

I could not agree more. Which is why I object to race-based affirmative action in medical and law schools admissions.

I believe that if the medical and legal professions are to be truly accessible to all and to serve all , the medical and legal professions needs to reflect the population.



People respond to stories rather than data. It's perhaps a fault but the truth is that if we only looked at data, we could easily draw the wrong conclusions. Data only tells you about a group and does not tell you about an individual.

Data are the only way to tell if an individual has been treated fairly compared to others.

If Jane is suspended because she teased another girl about her glasses, you might think that was unfair. Indeed, it seems like a harsh policy. But if the same school suspends students for much lesser offences (like being more than 5 minutes late), then you would not say that Jane is being treated unfairly compared to others.

The treatment can be still be unfair to Jane as well as being unfair to all students. Fairness is objective and consequence should be logical and proportional. It would be unfair to all if the punishment for not lining up in a straight line was to be suspended from school.

In school, students should be treated as individuals, not as representatives of this demographic or that.

I couldn't agree more. I'm surprised in fact that you don't agree with me on the affirmative action threads, because that's exactly what I think schools should do: treat individuals as individuals and not as representatives of some demographic!

My impression is that you believe that school admissions should treat all students as mere collections of data points and not as individuals at all.

Schools have a mission to educate students and to provide society with an educated population. Part of providing society with an educated population is to make certain to remove as many barriers as possible to any group which has been historically excluded. Perhaps in Australia, there is no history of exclusion of certain groups from certain schools, etc. but there is such a history in the U.S. and it was alive and well during my lifetime.



But we don't know. We don't know if it was rampant prejudice or completely justified or somewhere in between (probably somewhere in between).

I agree that it is probably something in between. I didn't get the impression that the mother was trying to paint her children as angels: she mentioned their previous suspensions quite openly.

What data shows is that in fact black children receive school suspensions far more frequently than white students do for similar offenses.
What data? Do you mean instead:

What data shows is that in fact black children receive school suspensions far more frequently than white students do for similar offenses

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/get-scho...deral-report-racial-disparities-school-disci/

A consistent research finding – reinforced by a federal review released today -- is that minority students experience disproportionate school discipline even in preschool.
And a consistent rejoinder from posters on this blog is that minority students are more likely to engage in behaviors that land them in trouble.
But the research challenges that assumption. Even when they commit the exact same offense as white students, black students suffer more severe consequences, according to research.
 
That is not a notable "peak" in the data, given that the ratio for law-breaking bad behavior (i.e., crime rates) is more than 2:1 for almost all crimes and closer to 4:1 for many crimes......
You seem to confuse bloviation with analysis. Your use of extrapolation of alleged research results to make assertions about causes in younger ages exhibits a frighening ignorance of the proper use of correlation and statistical analysis from someone pretending to have expertise in those areas. The laughable claim that I subscribe to a uni-causal explanation or even a primary casual factor when I have written in this thread that "I suspect race is a factor" indicates such a large deficit in the basic reasoning necessary to construct basic analysis in the social sciences. And your reliance on empty emotive rhetoric like "statutes of virgin Mary appear to crying" (sic) and "faith-based assumptions" indicate a state of close-mindedness more akin to Islamic jihadists than social scientists.
 
I have been waiting for you to bring up affirmative action. We simply disagree about what affirmative action does and does not do

It's not merely a disagreement: you're wrong about what affirmative action policies do in American law and medical schools. They discriminate against Asian, and to a lesser extent White, students, in favour of Black and Latino students.

and whether it is necessary or helpful. My position (very simplistically stated) is that it is still necessary because students have unequal access to good educational programs starting with preschool.


In other words, you do approve of institutions treating people as representatives of their collective.

I believe that if the medical and legal professions are to be truly accessible to all and to serve all , the medical and legal professions needs to reflect the population.

But that's profoundly absurd. Of course you don't mean this: you don't expect the age profile of medical professionals, for example, to match the age profile of the entire population (unless you think pediatricians should be children instead of merely practising medicine on them).

Even the most generous interpretation of your statement (that it needs to reflect the ethnic and gender makeup of the underlying population) is absurd.

First, hamfisting your way to ethnic and gender representativeness by rigging medical school admissions does zero in terms of accessibility, which is mostly determined by geographical availability and price. You can fix price by having single payer healthcare, and you can fix geographical availability by offering rural-bonded scholarships to medical school applicants.

Second, relaxing entry standards for 'under-represented' minorities does nothing to ensure those minorities stay in the profession. Women make up the majority of undergraduates in America but they don't make up the majority of full time employees.

Third, relaxing entry standards for under-represented minorities (and discriminating against other, over-represented minorities) promotes the poisonous idea that it's your race that matters, not your personal qualities.

Fourth, insisting that populations can only be served by 'their own kind' is naked tribalism. Most of the obstetrician-gynecologists in America are men, and I can hardly imagine female ob-gyns are somehow better just because they look like, in some shallow sense, their patients.

If I had to see a urologist, my thoughts are 'how much will it cost, and what are his (or her) medical qualifications', not 'does my urologist have a penis.'

The treatment can be still be unfair to Jane as well as being unfair to all students. Fairness is objective and consequence should be logical and proportional. It would be unfair to all if the punishment for not lining up in a straight line was to be suspended from school.

But you don't know the school's policies on suspension either, and whether their practice reflects their policies.

My impression is that you believe that school admissions should treat all students as mere collections of data points and not as individuals at all.

Schools have a mission to educate students and to provide society with an educated population. Part of providing society with an educated population is to make certain to remove as many barriers as possible to any group which has been historically excluded. Perhaps in Australia, there is no history of exclusion of certain groups from certain schools, etc. but there is such a history in the U.S. and it was alive and well during my lifetime.

Discrimination against Asians and Whites does not remove barriers for other populations. If those populations have not achieved at the same level K-12 and in their undergraduate degree, then no amount of discrimination against Asians and Whites can rectify that. Medical and law schools cannot reorder time.


A consistent research finding – reinforced by a federal review released today -- is that minority students experience disproportionate school discipline even in preschool.
And a consistent rejoinder from posters on this blog is that minority students are more likely to engage in behaviors that land them in trouble.
But the research challenges that assumption. Even when they commit the exact same offense as white students, black students suffer more severe consequences, according to research.

The article says that was a conclusion, but what was the evidence? I cannot find anything except the rates data. This pdf snapshot of 'discipline' has data by race, gender, and disability status but says nothing about the 'exact same offense' claim

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf

So, where's the evidence that the exact same offense (in the same school) leads to differential outcomes due to race?
 
It's not merely a disagreement: you're wrong about what affirmative action policies do in American law and medical schools. They discriminate against Asian, and to a lesser extent White, students, in favour of Black and Latino students.

and whether it is necessary or helpful. My position (very simplistically stated) is that it is still necessary because students have unequal access to good educational programs starting with preschool.


In other words, you do approve of institutions treating people as representatives of their collective.

I believe that if the medical and legal professions are to be truly accessible to all and to serve all , the medical and legal professions needs to reflect the population.

But that's profoundly absurd. Of course you don't mean this: you don't expect the age profile of medical professionals, for example, to match the age profile of the entire population (unless you think pediatricians should be children instead of merely practising medicine on them).

Even the most generous interpretation of your statement (that it needs to reflect the ethnic and gender makeup of the underlying population) is absurd.

First, hamfisting your way to ethnic and gender representativeness by rigging medical school admissions does zero in terms of accessibility, which is mostly determined by geographical availability and price. You can fix price by having single payer healthcare, and you can fix geographical availability by offering rural-bonded scholarships to medical school applicants.

Second, relaxing entry standards for 'under-represented' minorities does nothing to ensure those minorities stay in the profession. Women make up the majority of undergraduates in America but they don't make up the majority of full time employees.

Third, relaxing entry standards for under-represented minorities (and discriminating against other, over-represented minorities) promotes the poisonous idea that it's your race that matters, not your personal qualities.

Fourth, insisting that populations can only be served by 'their own kind' is naked tribalism. Most of the obstetrician-gynecologists in America are men, and I can hardly imagine female ob-gyns are somehow better just because they look like, in some shallow sense, their patients.

If I had to see a urologist, my thoughts are 'how much will it cost, and what are his (or her) medical qualifications', not 'does my urologist have a penis.'

The treatment can be still be unfair to Jane as well as being unfair to all students. Fairness is objective and consequence should be logical and proportional. It would be unfair to all if the punishment for not lining up in a straight line was to be suspended from school.

But you don't know the school's policies on suspension either, and whether their practice reflects their policies.

My impression is that you believe that school admissions should treat all students as mere collections of data points and not as individuals at all.

Schools have a mission to educate students and to provide society with an educated population. Part of providing society with an educated population is to make certain to remove as many barriers as possible to any group which has been historically excluded. Perhaps in Australia, there is no history of exclusion of certain groups from certain schools, etc. but there is such a history in the U.S. and it was alive and well during my lifetime.

Discrimination against Asians and Whites does not remove barriers for other populations. If those populations have not achieved at the same level K-12 and in their undergraduate degree, then no amount of discrimination against Asians and Whites can rectify that. Medical and law schools cannot reorder time.


A consistent research finding – reinforced by a federal review released today -- is that minority students experience disproportionate school discipline even in preschool.
And a consistent rejoinder from posters on this blog is that minority students are more likely to engage in behaviors that land them in trouble.
But the research challenges that assumption. Even when they commit the exact same offense as white students, black students suffer more severe consequences, according to research.

The article says that was a conclusion, but what was the evidence? I cannot find anything except the rates data. This pdf snapshot of 'discipline' has data by race, gender, and disability status but says nothing about the 'exact same offense' claim

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf

So, where's the evidence that the exact same offense (in the same school) leads to differential outcomes due to race?



Quick answer: I just linked the article and bolded the part about similar, etc. There is a very recent initiative to look at data from every single school (presumably only public though) in the U.S. to see how discipline is dispensed. I know there is some raw data but what I have seen available is only very broad categories, without the necessary detail. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist: I didn't find it and it may not be public or free access yet.

I am not debating affirmative action with you. We disagree and are unlikely to change one another's minds.
 
Tell me, those of you who don't think racism is a factor on the suspensions of white children at a lower rate then black children, what do you need as proof that racism is indeed a factor?
 
Tell me, those of you who don't think racism is a factor on the suspensions of white children at a lower rate then black children, what do you need as proof that racism is indeed a factor?

No-one has said racism isn't a factor. But like any complex social phenomenon, no one factor will explain all or even most of it.

'Ideal' evidence would be hard to come by, because if White children are not being suspended for similar behaviour under similar circumstances, then of course looking at only suspension data can't uncover that (since by definition they weren't suspended). But if other kinds of punishment ranking below suspension are handed out, and these are also recorded, that would be useful. Then at least you could see if, in the same school, White kids are getting a detention for what would typically get a Black kid a suspension (controlling, of course, for 'first offender' status).
 
Tell me, those of you who don't think racism is a factor on the suspensions of white children at a lower rate then black children, what do you need as proof that racism is indeed a factor?

No-one has said racism isn't a factor. But like any complex social phenomenon, no one factor will explain all or even most of it.
Really? So the killing of Emmett Till and the subsequent acquittal of his killers can't be explained mostly by racism? Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, restricted country clubs, segregation academies are all things not mostly explained by racism?
'Ideal' evidence would be hard to come by, because if White children are not being suspended for similar behaviour under similar circumstances, then of course looking at only suspension data can't uncover that (since by definition they weren't suspended). But if other kinds of punishment ranking below suspension are handed out, and these are also recorded, that would be useful. Then at least you could see if, in the same school, White kids are getting a detention for what would typically get a Black kid a suspension (controlling, of course, for 'first offender' status).

so if black men were being lynched in the 1920s southern US and no one responsible was every arrested for these lynchings, the only way to prove that the lynchings and subsequent lack of arrests were racially motivated is if we have documentation that black men were also being locked up more disturbing the peace?
 
Really? So the killing of Emmett Till and the subsequent acquittal of his killers can't be explained mostly by racism?

Do you think the murder of an individual is a complex social phenomenon?

Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, restricted country clubs, segregation academies are all things not mostly explained by racism?

No, they're not entirely 'explained' by racism. If there were no other factors, then the North would also have had slavery. And other countries in the world were also racist in 1860, but did not have slavery.


so if black men were being lynched in the 1920s southern US and no one responsible was every arrested for these lynchings, the only way to prove that the lynchings and subsequent lack of arrests were racially motivated is if we have documentation that black men were also being locked up more disturbing the peace?

How would that follow from anything I've said in this thread, or indeed anything I've ever said?

You asked what would count as proof. I gave you a scenario of what kind of evidence would be ideal to make a reasonable evaluation. So why are you now attacking me for answering your question?

What about you, Athena? Is there any conceivable evidence (I don't mean actual evidence, I mean can you imagine what the evidence would look like) that would persuade you that racism was not a significant factor in the Black-White suspension differential?
 
All this really seems off topic. I thought the problem was that black pre-schoolers were being punished more often and more harshly than whites. It didn't say that black pre-schoolers were actually guilty of misbehavior more often.

No: that's speculation. We don't know what the rate of misbehaviour by race is. We don't even have suspension rates from a single school. So, we have no idea, from the OP anecdote, whether Black children are misbehaving more (but given the socioeconomic circumstances that Black children are more likely to experience, it's probably true that they do misbehave more).
Well since you are assuming then so will I. For over five-years I owned a child care center that served a low income demographic (80% of my enrollment was subsidized). Our racial mix was fairly even among white, black and hispanic (although the majority of students were "mixed"). For two years I taught the VPK class (4-year olds). My finding are....no, black kids do NOT get into more trouble, are NOT more violent or disrespectful etc. etc. The two worst behaved children were a white boy child (with a mental disorder not yet diagnosed) and a mixed (black/white) girl whose father was in and out of jail and abusive when home.

In the overall student population, the worst behaved children were white. All except one. However, these children were typically in temporary foster care and came from home environments that NO PERSON, let alone a child should have to suffer through. These kids had anger management and trust issues big time.

So, although I cannot speak for the OP, nor can I say this scenario is typical, but I can say that Metaphor's 'assumption' about black children misbehaving more often due to socioeconomics is not true. I found it's less about being poor and more about witnessing and suffering from violence, neglect and abuse which we all know can happen at any socioeconomic level. The biggest problem for children in the lower socioeconomic demographics, that have parents that care enough to put them in a preschool program, is LACK OF RESOURCES and for the parent, LACK OF QUALITY TIME.
 
Do you think the murder of an individual is a complex social phenomenon?
why was he killed and why were his killer acquitted? Was this an uncommon thing or part of a general trend? Do you have a physical aversion to saying anything in all of history might have been a result, at least is part, of racism?
Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, restricted country clubs, segregation academies are all things not mostly explained by racism?

No, they're not entirely 'explained' by racism. If there were no other factors, then the North would also have had slavery. And other countries in the world were also racist in 1860, but did not have slavery.
show me where I or anyone else claimed something was entirely explained by racism? Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who claimed that. I have stated more than once that racism could a cause and not the cause.
so if black men were being lynched in the 1920s southern US and no one responsible was every arrested for these lynchings, the only way to prove that the lynchings and subsequent lack of arrests were racially motivated is if we have documentation that black men were also being locked up more disturbing the peace?

How would that follow from anything I've said in this thread, or indeed anything I've ever said?

You asked what would count as proof. I gave you a scenario of what kind of evidence would be ideal to make a reasonable evaluation. So why are you now attacking me for answering your question?

What about you, Athena? Is there any conceivable evidence (I don't mean actual evidence, I mean can you imagine what the evidence would look like) that would persuade you that racism was not a significant factor in the Black-White suspension differential?

If the differential were smaller.
If the majority of white children in school were practically perfect is everyway.
if there were not a history of racial privileging of white students in our culture.
If this school was an aberration and not indicative of a nationally documented trend.
If there were not reams of research, past and present, that controls for the very phenomena you listed, and still concludes the existence of racism.

And if, just every once in a while, a certain shrinking minority of people would take a tiny break from trying to piss in my face and tell me it's raining and give me the benefit of the doubt as someone who not only is black, but has spent a considerable amount her life studying and working in the fields of social stratification, that I and others like me, might, JUST MIGHT, know a LITTLE something about what the fuck we are talking about.
 
So, although I cannot speak for the OP, nor can I say this scenario is typical, but I can say that Metaphor's 'assumption' about black children misbehaving more often due to socioeconomics is not true. I found it's less about being poor and more about witnessing and suffering from violence, neglect and abuse which we all know can happen at any socioeconomic level. The biggest problem for children in the lower socioeconomic demographics, that have parents that care enough to put them in a preschool program, is LACK OF RESOURCES and for the parent, LACK OF QUALITY TIME.

Am I supposed to be more persuaded by this anecdote than the previous one?

Black children are much more likely to be born into single-parent families, and children from single-parent families have more behavioural problems. I've already linked to this information before. Single parents also face a host of issues (such as more unstable tenure) that are also likely to impact children's behaviour negatively. Black families with the same income level as White families tend to have lower levels of wealth, which means overall lower access to economic resources.

I get the feeling you'd accept each of these facts one at a time, but when you put them all together, no, it can't be right!
 
show me where I or anyone else claimed something was entirely explained by racism? Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who claimed that. I have stated more than once that racism could a cause and not the cause.

But I've said the same thing. Some people are racist and so it seems doubtful to me that it plays no role. But it also seems doubtful to me that we can simply assume plain racism accounts for most of the variance and leave it at that, especially since we already know, from psychological research, of many other factors that lead to child misbehaviour.

If the differential were smaller.
If the majority of white children in school were practically perfect is everyway.

White children being perfect in every way is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain the differential.
if there were not a history of racial privileging of white students in our culture.
If this school was an aberration and not indicative of a nationally documented trend.
If there were not reams of research, past and present, that controls for the very phenomena you listed, and still concludes the existence of racism.

What research? The OP article claims that Black students are punished more severely for similar acts in similar circumstances, but I did not see a single data point to verify this. Do you have that data?

And if, just every once in a while, a certain shrinking minority of people would take a tiny break from trying to piss in my face and tell me it's raining and give me the benefit of the doubt as someone who not only is black, but has spent a considerable amount her life studying and working in the fields of social stratification, that I and others like me, might, JUST MIGHT, know a LITTLE something about what the fuck we are talking about.

You're the best authority on your personal experience. But I'm not going to take things on faith from anyone. I want to know the evidence.
 
But I've said the same thing. Some people are racist and so it seems doubtful to me that it plays no role. But it also seems doubtful to me that we can simply assume plain racism accounts for most of the variance and leave it at that, especially since we already know, from psychological research, of many other factors that lead to child misbehaviour.

But it's more than that: Yes, racism does factor into how a child and how a child's behavior is viewed and what sort of consequences are meted out for bad behavior (or perceived bad behavior). Racism does a lot more than that:

Racism contributes to poverty.
Racism creates additional stress in nearly every aspect of the victims of racism. These are in addition to the considerable stresses of poverty itself.
Racism limits opportunity for entire groups of individuals, causing added frustration, anger. All of that anger has to go somewhere and in families of all colors and SES, it tends to be expressed at home.
Racism limits resources available to its victims which could be used to help with issues of health (physical and mental health), job training, life skills, etc. Fewer resources are located in areas with high concentrations of minority populations. Meaning less availability, more time needed, more skills at making the system work needed, etc. = much more stress and anger.
Racism is a tremendous source of fear as well as anger. I never worried about my sons being pulled over by police officers for minor or invented offenses that would balloon into a trip to jail. That is something that black parents worry about every day. For just cause.
Racism destroys hope. Which is worse than every other evil that racism inflicts.

What happens to all of that stress, all that anger, all of that fear?: It causes problems with interpersonal relationships of all kinds, at all levels.


Sure, minority folks have the same sort of personal, family, work, life problems that everyone else has. But on top of those, they also have to face racism every single day. It's an extra added burden on top of the usual life burdens and on top of the associated poverty. It's present not only for poor minorities but also for middle class and wealthy minorities. It's not easy to be seen as a successful person if you are black or Hispanic. You are seen as a successful black or Hispanic person. But first you are seen as Black or Hispanic, or whatever minority. With all the baggage entailed.

if there were not a history of racial privileging of white students in our culture.
If this school was an aberration and not indicative of a nationally documented trend.
If there were not reams of research, past and present, that controls for the very phenomena you listed, and still concludes the existence of racism.

What research? The OP article claims that Black students are punished more severely for similar acts in similar circumstances, but I did not see a single data point to verify this. Do you have that data?

Dig a little for yourself. I gave a link in a previous post. As far as data, all I found is raw data in very, very broad categories. Because of what has been written about the early results of the new studies (in progress now), I am confident that there is more detail but I haven't had time to look myself. It may not be available on the net yet or to the general public. I really don't know.

And if, just every once in a while, a certain shrinking minority of people would take a tiny break from trying to piss in my face and tell me it's raining and give me the benefit of the doubt as someone who not only is black, but has spent a considerable amount her life studying and working in the fields of social stratification, that I and others like me, might, JUST MIGHT, know a LITTLE something about what the fuck we are talking about.

You're the best authority on your personal experience. But I'm not going to take things on faith from anyone. I want to know the evidence.

Fair enough. Do some digging for yourself for data. I've given you a starting point. But better yet: visit the U.S. Visit some urban areas, some rural areas. Look and listen with an open mind. Read some U.S. history.

Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States
 
What happens to all of that stress, all that anger, all of that fear?: It causes problems with interpersonal relationships of all kinds, at all levels.

So why would it be so unbelievable that Black children misbehave more?


Dig a little for yourself. I gave a link in a previous post.

I already did. I did not see any evidence whatever that would justify the conclusion 'Black children are punished more severely for the same offenses'.

The article claimed it, but it did not explain it or produce evidence.

Fair enough. Do some digging for yourself for data. I've given you a starting point. But better yet: visit the U.S. Visit some urban areas, some rural areas. Look and listen with an open mind. Read some U.S. history.

I don't see why my anecdotal experience would be more meaningful than anyone else's.
 
But I've said the same thing. Some people are racist and so it seems doubtful to me that it plays no role. But it also seems doubtful to me that we can simply assume plain racism accounts for most of the variance and leave it at that, especially since we already know, from psychological research, of many other factors that lead to child misbehaviour.

If the differential were smaller.
If the majority of white children in school were practically perfect is everyway.

White children being perfect in every way is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain the differential.
if there were not a history of racial privileging of white students in our culture.
If this school was an aberration and not indicative of a nationally documented trend.
If there were not reams of research, past and present, that controls for the very phenomena you listed, and still concludes the existence of racism.

What research? The OP article claims that Black students are punished more severely for similar acts in similar circumstances, but I did not see a single data point to verify this. Do you have that data?

And if, just every once in a while, a certain shrinking minority of people would take a tiny break from trying to piss in my face and tell me it's raining and give me the benefit of the doubt as someone who not only is black, but has spent a considerable amount her life studying and working in the fields of social stratification, that I and others like me, might, JUST MIGHT, know a LITTLE something about what the fuck we are talking about.

You're the best authority on your personal experience. But I'm not going to take things on faith from anyone. I want to know the evidence.
you are willing to believe that black three year olds misbehave more than white three year olds and you demand no data, but is a country with a history of racism you don't believe racism is a major factor in a phenomenon that has racist outcomes?
 
Went to Amazon

Typed on the words
Racism in American education

Got 623 results under the category of books

some take one position, some another, some still another

Anyone really interested in studying this problem can find all the data they want, provided they want to.

I doubt some people here want to. They want to think they know more about racism than people who have studied the problem, people who have worked on the problem and had success in lessening the problem and people who live their daily lives on the shitty side of the problem.

During slavery, the desire of slaves to run away from slavery was deemed a mental disorder call drapetamania, the will to not work under or rebel against the conditions of slavery was called rascality. Physicians said this, wrote articles and books on the subject, and were believed to scientist by large sectors of the population.

After the war, scientific racism and a shit ton racial stereotypes, all believes in whole or in part by large segments of the population were used to justify and legitimate everything from lynching to Jim Crow to Steppin Fetchit. In 1963 gallop took a survey of Americans and asked them how they felt about the way black were treated in the US. This survey was done prior to the March on Washington. Two thirds of the people surveyed believed black folk were treated equally to white and in some cases better. Today we have people rushing to the border to keep brown children out of the country, we are resegregating our schools as a result of the charter school movement, and one in three black men in the US are in jail, on probation, or on parole. And there are people who say today, just like in the past, feel the reasons for these things is anything and everything but racism.

Smh.
 
you are willing to believe that black three year olds misbehave more than white three year olds and you demand no data

No data? Isn't the fact that Black kids are suspended three times as often as White kids data?

You'd have to be doing extreme mental gymnastics not to believe that Black kids misbehave more. Children from single-parent households have more behavioural problems. Black children are more likely to come from single-parent households. Black children are more likely to come from reduced socioeconomic status households. Black children are more likely to live in households with less stable tenure (renting versus owning). It would be a miracle if they didn't misbehave more.

, but is a country with a history of racism you don't believe racism is a major factor in a phenomenon that has racist outcomes?

You haven't defined what a racist outcome is. Is it any process that involves ethnic groups being over or underrepresented relative to the population?

Do you think the NBA is a racist outcome?
 
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