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Arrested Development: The Pre-school to Suspension Pipeline

Metaphor

Here is you problem

You assume the poor black kids are going to school with middle class or rich white kids

They aren't.

so, as a rule, you have children with the relative same socio-economic background going to school together. And now, with the current resegregation of a growing number of schools you don't even have black students and white students in the same school. Add to that that these schools are more likely to have inexperienced teachers and in some schools, teacher still working toward their permanent license, you get teachers easily rattled, even by three year olds and that isn't because of misbehavior of ghetto children.

What kinds of behaviours qualify a preschool child to be suspended is a different debate. But, lest my posts have been misunderstood, I want to make the following clear

i) Black preschool children are being suspended at a rate about 3x that of White children (this is not in disagreement)
ii) I think that 'suspension worthy' judgments will differ from teacher to teacher and school to school, and it probably has an unconscious race element
iii) Looking at the suspension rate difference between Black kids and White kids does not tell you whether there is a race element in teachers' judgments, because we don't know about the objective rate of suspension worthy misbehaviour difference
iv) Black children are born to younger mothers, into more single-parent families, into lower socioeconomic circumstances than White children, as well as a host of other Black White differences and all of which you would expect to increase the misbehaviour rate of Black children over White children
v) There could be a large Black-White suspension rate difference even if no single school actually had any race-bias nor did Black children misbehave more. That seems paradoxical but if schools are very segregated, and Black kids go to schools with higher suspension rates/more hair-trigger policies, then no single school would need to have a race-based element but Black suspensions would still be higher
vi) The data are consistent with a number of scenarios and I see no easy way to differentiate between their likelihoods without additional data.

Kids who are born to young mothers, especially young single mothers are more likely to be raised in homes in lower socioeconomic circumstances. This is true no matter the race or ethnicity of the child or parent.

It happens, for a host of reasons, that a greater portion of black children are born to impoverished circumstances than are white children. There are far more poor white children than there are poor black children.

Here's how it breaks down (very simplified, and just a cut and paste with the link:)

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/12/PovertyAndIncomeEst/ib.cfm

Children in African-American, Hispanic, and Non-Hispanic White Families

For African-American children, the poverty rate in 2011 was 37.4 percent. The poverty rate for African-American children in 2011 was 7.2 percentage points higher than the recent low in 2001.
For Hispanic children, the poverty rate in 2011 was 34.1 percent. The poverty rate for Hispanic children in 2011 was 7.2 percentage points higher than the recent low in 2006.
For non-Hispanic White children, the poverty rate was 12.5 percent in 2011. The poverty rate for non-Hispanic White children in 2011 was 3.4 percentage points higher than the recent low in 2000.

Similarly, more black children are raised in single parent homes compared with white children, which correlates to higher levels of poverty, no matter the color of the family..

In the U.S., children are much more likely to attend school with children of similar backgrounds, especially socioeconomic background but increasingly also similar racial/ethnic backgrounds.

Those rates are not comparing poor black children being raised by struggling young single mothers with the upper middle class white children of doctors and lawyers, etc. The comparison is between similarly circumstanced (rich, poor, middle class) children of different race and ethnicity because that is to a very large degree how school populations look.

Black children are being suspended at rates which are significantly higher than the rates at which white children of similar backgrounds are being suspended. So are Hispanic children.

Now, it could be that black children and Hispanic children behave worse in school than do white children.

It could be that black children and Hispanic children are being scrutinized more closely for misbehavior and that their behavior is evaluated more harshly.

The question is: How much do either of these play a role and also why?

My observation is that children pretty much live up to the expectations placed on them. If they know they are expected to behave well, they do. If they know they are expected to succeed, they try very hard to succeed. If they believe they are not being treated fairly, they quit trying. This is certainly true of white children. It is hard to believe that this is not true of children of all races and ethnicity.
 
Which studies? You and Toni keep saying that but I want to read them.

the NBA?

Sixty years ago, the NBA was a Jewish league. The general belief was that Jews were just naturally gifted as basketball players.

Do you think the NBA was being anti-gentile sixty years ago?

I don't know if you're taking the piss. This wiki article mentions nothing about a 'Jewish league' at any time in NBA history. I do recall a wickedly funny joke from 'Airplane!' The stewardess is handing out reading material to flight passengers and someone asks if she has any light reading. 'I have this leaflet' she says 'on Jewish sporting legends'.

But back to reality. The NBA is 78% Black, and it looks to have been that way since at least 1990. This is obviously a gross over-representation of Black players, compared to the American population.

But do I believe it's being fueled by racist stereotypes about White men being unable to jump? No. I believe that Black men, as a group, have greater talent and/or interest in playing professional basketball and this is reflected by the league composition.

Interesting that on the page I linked to, a former player said the NBA needs more White players, because most of the fans are White.

Should we get some affirmative action in the NBA, or do you accept that, even if there are positive stereotypes about Black basketball performance, the pool of Black candidates is just larger and that's how it is?

Actually, I think that one of the reasons that there are so many Black NBA players is that sports is one of the few avenues where black males are expected to succeed.
 
Those rates are not comparing poor black children being raised by struggling young single mothers with the upper middle class white children of doctors and lawyers, etc. The comparison is between similarly circumstanced (rich, poor, middle class) children of different race and ethnicity because that is to a very large degree how school populations look.

No, that can't be right, since the 3x more likely rate is a national rate, which takes into account all suspensions. Controlling for individual schools is necessary but not sufficient to untangle all the socioeconomic effects, because children who go to the same school are all not exactly alike in their socioeconomic ciicrumstances, or even close to it. For example, Black households with the same income as White households have significantly less wealth.

Black children are being suspended at rates which are significantly higher than the rates at which white children of similar backgrounds are being suspended. So are Hispanic children.

Where did you find this data? The only figure I've seen is a national one, not a socio-economic stratified one.
 
No, that can't be right, since the 3x more likely rate is a national rate, which takes into account all suspensions. Controlling for individual schools is necessary but not sufficient to untangle all the socioeconomic effects, because children who go to the same school are all not exactly alike in their socioeconomic ciicrumstances, or even close to it. For example, Black households with the same income as White households have significantly less wealth.

Black children are being suspended at rates which are significantly higher than the rates at which white children of similar backgrounds are being suspended. So are Hispanic children.

Where did you find this data? The only figure I've seen is a national one, not a socio-economic stratified one.

and you think a three year old's behavior is significantly effected by the fact that while his or classmates may come from homes of similar income, there is a great wealth gap?

We are talking about people who have just mastered using a fork and think that wearing the same pair of underwear for a month is an ok thing to do.
 
Which studies? You and Toni keep saying that but I want to read them.



I don't know if you're taking the piss. This wiki article mentions nothing about a 'Jewish league' at any time in NBA history. I do recall a wickedly funny joke from 'Airplane!' The stewardess is handing out reading material to flight passengers and someone asks if she has any light reading. 'I have this leaflet' she says 'on Jewish sporting legends'.

But back to reality. The NBA is 78% Black, and it looks to have been that way since at least 1990. This is obviously a gross over-representation of Black players, compared to the American population.

But do I believe it's being fueled by racist stereotypes about White men being unable to jump? No. I believe that Black men, as a group, have greater talent and/or interest in playing professional basketball and this is reflected by the league composition.

Interesting that on the page I linked to, a former player said the NBA needs more White players, because most of the fans are White.

Should we get some affirmative action in the NBA, or do you accept that, even if there are positive stereotypes about Black basketball performance, the pool of Black candidates is just larger and that's how it is?

Actually, I think that one of the reasons that there are so many Black NBA players is that sports is one of the few avenues where black males are expected to succeed.

http://reducingstereotypethreat.org/bibliography_ambady_shih_kim_pittinsky.html

I think you will find the studies mentioned in this blurb very interesting. :)
 
and you think a three year old's behavior is significantly effected by the fact that while his or classmates may come from homes of similar income, there is a great wealth gap?

I'm surprised you think there wouldn't be. Wealth is an economic resource that helps smooth consumption and provides insurance against income shocks. But this is moot. e know socioeconomic and family status affects child development, and we know there are large differences between Black children and White children in this regard.

We are talking about people who have just mastered using a fork and think that wearing the same pair of underwear for a month is an ok thing to do.

Not all three year olds are the same. My own nieces, two years apart from each other, couldn't be better living proof. The older one was whingeing and attention-demanding, who always wanted to be the centre of attention but when she got it she didn't know what to do with it. The younger was a perfect angel at the same age.
 
Which studies? You and Toni keep saying that but I want to read them.



I don't know if you're taking the piss. This wiki article mentions nothing about a 'Jewish league' at any time in NBA history. I do recall a wickedly funny joke from 'Airplane!' The stewardess is handing out reading material to flight passengers and someone asks if she has any light reading. 'I have this leaflet' she says 'on Jewish sporting legends'.

But back to reality. The NBA is 78% Black, and it looks to have been that way since at least 1990. This is obviously a gross over-representation of Black players, compared to the American population.

But do I believe it's being fueled by racist stereotypes about White men being unable to jump? No. I believe that Black men, as a group, have greater talent and/or interest in playing professional basketball and this is reflected by the league composition.

Interesting that on the page I linked to, a former player said the NBA needs more White players, because most of the fans are White.

Should we get some affirmative action in the NBA, or do you accept that, even if there are positive stereotypes about Black basketball performance, the pool of Black candidates is just larger and that's how it is?

Actually, I think that one of the reasons that there are so many Black NBA players is that sports is one of the few avenues where black males are expected to succeed.

So you think the only reason they're overrepresented is because of a positive stereotype, not because there is greater cultural interest, not because they have any more natural talent, not because they have trained hard?

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a link worth clicking

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown...ds-ending-zero-tolerance-policies-in-schools/

In our investigations, we have found cases where African-American students were disciplined more harshly and more frequently because of their race than similarly situated white students,” the Justice and Education departments said in a letter to school districts. “In short, racial discrimination in school discipline is a real problem.”

Does the PBS report show the data that led to their conclusion?
 
I'm surprised you think there wouldn't be. Wealth is an economic resource that helps smooth consumption and provides insurance against income shocks. But this is moot. e know socioeconomic and family status affects child development, and we know there are large differences between Black children and White children in this regard.

We are talking about people who have just mastered using a fork and think that wearing the same pair of underwear for a month is an ok thing to do.

Not all three year olds are the same. My own nieces, two years apart from each other, couldn't be better living proof. The older one was whingeing and attention-demanding, who always wanted to be the centre of attention but when she got it she didn't know what to do with it. The younger was a perfect angel at the same age.

did you just use a personal anecdote as proof? Not only a personal anecdote but one involving family members and a sample size of two?

Really?

But my personal experience with hundreds of student not related to me over eight years of teaching, evaluating, and being evaluated, my experience is suspect.

Hmmmm.
 
did you just use a personal anecdote as proof? Not only a personal anecdote but one involving family members and a sample size of two?

Really?

Yes. I just used my family as an example for the wholly unremarkable claim that three year olds have different personalities to each other.
 
did you just use a personal anecdote as proof? Not only a personal anecdote but one involving family members and a sample size of two?

Really?

Yes. I just used my family as an example for the wholly unremarkable claim that three year olds have different personalities to each other.

it is a general fact that pro basketball players tend to be over six feet tall.

The fact that Spud Webb played professional ball and was under 6 feet tall does not negate that fact.

The fact that each child is his own person is not in dispute. And neither should be the fact that for all their eccentricities three year olds share more commonalities than they do differences.

which you have been saying now for some time since your big point is that kids who share poverty as a common circumstance misbehave more and therefore of course they are suspended more.
 
Yes. I just used my family as an example for the wholly unremarkable claim that three year olds have different personalities to each other.

it is a general fact that pro basketball players tend to be over six feet tall.

The fact that Spud Webb played professional ball and was under 6 feet tall does not negate that fact.

The fact that each child is his own person is not in dispute. And neither should be the fact that for all their eccentricities three year olds share more commonalities than they do differences.

which you have been saying now for some time since your big point is that kids who share poverty as a common circumstance misbehave more and therefore of course they are suspended more.

Yes, that is my point. It's more than just that, though, which is why I brought up the income-wealth disparity. Two households with the same income but with vastly different wealth levels do not have access to the same economic resources, and they can't just be lumped together.

What I really believe is that Black children are misbehaving more than White children, and that partly explains the higher suspension rates. I also believe that most of this difference in misbehaviour is due to a constellation of socioeconomic and familial factors that differ between Black and White children. I also believe that racism could have contributed to the different socioeconomic and familial factors, as well as the higher suspension rates independently.

What I do not believe is that it is simply enough to blame a single cause (rampant racism by child carers) and think the issue is done and dusted.
 
Actually, I think that one of the reasons that there are so many Black NBA players is that sports is one of the few avenues where black males are expected to succeed.

So you think the only reason they're overrepresented is because of a positive stereotype, not because there is greater cultural interest, not because they have any more natural talent, not because they have trained hard?

Read more carefully. I said ONE of the reasons. Not the only reason. Or even the main reason but I think it's a pretty big reason. Of course they have talent and work hard to succeed in order to win and keep a spot on a pro sports team.

I think that there is significant racism at work that doesn't encourage or recognize such high levels of talent and hard work when it comes to areas aside from sports and entertainment.
 
it is a general fact that pro basketball players tend to be over six feet tall.

The fact that Spud Webb played professional ball and was under 6 feet tall does not negate that fact.

The fact that each child is his own person is not in dispute. And neither should be the fact that for all their eccentricities three year olds share more commonalities than they do differences.

which you have been saying now for some time since your big point is that kids who share poverty as a common circumstance misbehave more and therefore of course they are suspended more.

Yes, that is my point. It's more than just that, though, which is why I brought up the income-wealth disparity. Two households with the same income but with vastly different wealth levels do not have access to the same economic resources, and they can't just be lumped together.

What I really believe is that Black children are misbehaving more than White children, and that partly explains the higher suspension rates. I also believe that most of this difference in misbehaviour is due to a constellation of socioeconomic and familial factors that differ between Black and White children. I also believe that racism could have contributed to the different socioeconomic and familial factors, as well as the higher suspension rates independently.

What I do not believe is that it is simply enough to blame a single cause (rampant racism by child carers) and think the issue is done and dusted.

have I said racism is the only racism?

Have we defined what racism means?

have you ever observed an inexperienced teacher dealing with a willful child in an over crowded classroom with not other adult in the room?

Have you ever taught children?

Have you ever read a book (not a blurb on the internet) on the subject of racism in American schools?

what exactly have you brought to the discussion? What links or research have you brought to the table?
 
Yes, that is my point. It's more than just that, though, which is why I brought up the income-wealth disparity. Two households with the same income but with vastly different wealth levels do not have access to the same economic resources, and they can't just be lumped together.

What I really believe is that Black children are misbehaving more than White children, and that partly explains the higher suspension rates. I also believe that most of this difference in misbehaviour is due to a constellation of socioeconomic and familial factors that differ between Black and White children. I also believe that racism could have contributed to the different socioeconomic and familial factors, as well as the higher suspension rates independently.

What I do not believe is that it is simply enough to blame a single cause (rampant racism by child carers) and think the issue is done and dusted.

have I said racism is the only racism?

Have we defined what racism means?

have you ever observed an inexperienced teacher dealing with a willful child in an over crowded classroom with not other adult in the room?

Have you ever taught children?

Have you ever read a book (not a blurb on the internet) on the subject of racism in American schools?

what exactly have you brought to the discussion? What links or research have you brought to the table?

I already linked to data twice showing the single parent disparity and research showing that children from single parent homes have more behavioural problems.

Since I can't even get you to agree that the conjunction of those two facts must mean Black children misbehave more, I guess I've accomplished nothing.
 
Here is what Music City USA is doing about the problem

http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ackle-racial-discipline-gap-schools/13030603/

Any mention of the discipline gap is often followed by an uncomfortable question — are behavior problems with blacks simply greater, or is the system pitted against minority students?

Allison Brown, a former civil rights attorney at the U.S. Department of Justice who will be the keynote speaker at the Nashville event today, said she's found it to be systemic, noting that the biggest disparity is often in subjective disciplinary categories such as insubordination and disrespect.

"A black student who rolls his or her eyes might be perceived differently by a teacher than a white student who does the very same behavior," said Brown, who now works as a consultant. "In objective categories, we don't see nearly the disproportionality that we see in the more loosely defined categories."
 
have I said racism is the only racism?

Have we defined what racism means?

have you ever observed an inexperienced teacher dealing with a willful child in an over crowded classroom with not other adult in the room?

Have you ever taught children?

Have you ever read a book (not a blurb on the internet) on the subject of racism in American schools?

what exactly have you brought to the discussion? What links or research have you brought to the table?

I already linked to data twice showing the single parent disparity and research showing that children from single parent homes have more behavioural problems.

Since I can't even get you to agree that the conjunction of those two facts must mean Black children misbehave more, I guess I've accomplished nothing.

Because it doesn't follow that all black children are more likely to misbehave.

Data analysis applied across a large group of individuals may not be predictive of the behavior of an individual student.

This is a problem when students are seen as aggregates of data points rather than individuals.

The stats also do nothing to distinguish between students who misbehave by objective standards or who are perceived to be misbehaving by some subjective evaluation which may or may not be influenced by teacher bias (unconscious or not).

Examples: In some cultures, it is considered disrespectful for children and younger people to look adults directly in the eye. Yet, most white Americans perceive avoiding eye contact as a sign of deception and dishonesty. And judge accordingly. Which is one reason that Native American kids' suspension rates are so high relative to those of white students.

Students are suspended based upon a teacher's evaluation to a student's behavior. The teacher's evaluation will be influenced by the teacher's perceptions which is also influenced by the teachers' biases, conscious and unconscious.

There is also the fact that teachers and schools mete out discipline based partially on whether or not they feel they have good established relationship with the student's parents. If the teacher/school believes that a phone call to the parents will resolve the problem, discipline often stops there. Notice that this relies heavily on what the teacher/school believes to be true of the parents, not of the child and is not based on actual fact. A teacher may believe that a student who comes from a well educated white family who seems well engaged in the community has more supervision and the parents are heavily invested in the student behaving well/performing well. This may or may not be actually true. The parents may be very vested in appearances and may not actually spend any time with the kid. Contrast with another family who is multigenerational because grandparents and parents are all working and by living in a multigenerational home, the family may provide consistent discipline and supervision. But the school may simply perceive that family as being out of the mainstream, and 'unreliable' because the family doesn't fit a nuclear family 9-5 type of lifestyle. If you throw in perceived language barriers--the school may be inclined to skip the call to the parents and go to higher levels of discipline they would not with a student from the perceived 'ideal' family.
 
Because it doesn't follow that all black children are more likely to misbehave.

Data analysis applied across a large group of individuals may not be predictive of the behavior of an individual student.

I think there is a large communication gap between us. I never claimed that all Black children misbehave.

When I say "men are taller than women", I am not saying all men are taller than all women (which of course, would be a ludicrous claim). It's merely a statement that men have a higher average height than women.

This is a problem when students are seen as aggregates of data points rather than individuals.

The stats also do nothing to distinguish between students who misbehave by objective standards or who are perceived to be misbehaving by some subjective evaluation which may or may not be influenced by teacher bias (unconscious or not).

I know that. In fact, I can think of several field studies that could help to disentangle these questions, but they do not appear to have been done.

Examples: In some cultures, it is considered disrespectful for children and younger people to look adults directly in the eye. Yet, most white Americans perceive avoiding eye contact as a sign of deception and dishonesty. And judge accordingly. Which is one reason that Native American kids' suspension rates are so high relative to those of white students.

Students are suspended based upon a teacher's evaluation to a student's behavior. The teacher's evaluation will be influenced by the teacher's perceptions which is also influenced by the teachers' biases, conscious and unconscious.

There is also the fact that teachers and schools mete out discipline based partially on whether or not they feel they have good established relationship with the student's parents. If the teacher/school believes that a phone call to the parents will resolve the problem, discipline often stops there. Notice that this relies heavily on what the teacher/school believes to be true of the parents, not of the child and is not based on actual fact. A teacher may believe that a student who comes from a well educated white family who seems well engaged in the community has more supervision and the parents are heavily invested in the student behaving well/performing well. This may or may not be actually true. The parents may be very vested in appearances and may not actually spend any time with the kid. Contrast with another family who is multigenerational because grandparents and parents are all working and by living in a multigenerational home, the family may provide consistent discipline and supervision. But the school may simply perceive that family as being out of the mainstream, and 'unreliable' because the family doesn't fit a nuclear family 9-5 type of lifestyle. If you throw in perceived language barriers--the school may be inclined to skip the call to the parents and go to higher levels of discipline they would not with a student from the perceived 'ideal' family.

In science, an untested idea is called a hypothesis. If perceptions of family competency affect discipline choices, this is something you can test. You can also test at the same time if these perceptions are biased along race lines.
 
I think there is a large communication gap between us. I never claimed that all Black children misbehave.

When I say "men are taller than women", I am not saying all men are taller than all women (which of course, would be a ludicrous claim). It's merely a statement that men have a higher average height than women.

This is a problem when students are seen as aggregates of data points rather than individuals.

The stats also do nothing to distinguish between students who misbehave by objective standards or who are perceived to be misbehaving by some subjective evaluation which may or may not be influenced by teacher bias (unconscious or not).

I know that. In fact, I can think of several field studies that could help to disentangle these questions, but they do not appear to have been done.

Examples: In some cultures, it is considered disrespectful for children and younger people to look adults directly in the eye. Yet, most white Americans perceive avoiding eye contact as a sign of deception and dishonesty. And judge accordingly. Which is one reason that Native American kids' suspension rates are so high relative to those of white students.

Students are suspended based upon a teacher's evaluation to a student's behavior. The teacher's evaluation will be influenced by the teacher's perceptions which is also influenced by the teachers' biases, conscious and unconscious.

There is also the fact that teachers and schools mete out discipline based partially on whether or not they feel they have good established relationship with the student's parents. If the teacher/school believes that a phone call to the parents will resolve the problem, discipline often stops there. Notice that this relies heavily on what the teacher/school believes to be true of the parents, not of the child and is not based on actual fact. A teacher may believe that a student who comes from a well educated white family who seems well engaged in the community has more supervision and the parents are heavily invested in the student behaving well/performing well. This may or may not be actually true. The parents may be very vested in appearances and may not actually spend any time with the kid. Contrast with another family who is multigenerational because grandparents and parents are all working and by living in a multigenerational home, the family may provide consistent discipline and supervision. But the school may simply perceive that family as being out of the mainstream, and 'unreliable' because the family doesn't fit a nuclear family 9-5 type of lifestyle. If you throw in perceived language barriers--the school may be inclined to skip the call to the parents and go to higher levels of discipline they would not with a student from the perceived 'ideal' family.

In science, an untested idea is called a hypothesis. If perceptions of family competency affect discipline choices, this is something you can test. You can also test at the same time if these perceptions are biased along race lines.

How does one go about designing such studies? How is data collected?
 
Students do not suspend themselves.

This is a fact.

A decision is made, by a teacher or a principal or a school board, to suspend students.

And a three year old certainly has no control over whether or not s/he is suspended.

the judgment of grownups determines the suspension of students.

Even if one group misbehaves more than another, that does not mean that more suspensions follow. (hence the little boy who threw a chair and sent a classmate to the hospital and was not suspended)
 
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