Arrested Development: The Pre-school to Suspension Pipeline

[Toni]

So why would it be so unbelievable that Black children misbehave more?

Dig a little for yourself. I gave a link in a previous post.

I already did. I did not see any evidence whatever that would justify the conclusion 'Black children are punished more severely for the same offenses'.

The article claimed it, but it did not explain it or produce evidence.

That's why you should dig further, try to find more explicit articles. Specifically, it mentioned that data demonstrated different punishment for the same behavior unlike previous studies. Which suggests to me that there are more detailed articles about the study (the study is ongoing, btw) that I haven't located.

Fair enough. Do some digging for yourself for data. I've given you a starting point. But better yet: visit the U.S. Visit some urban areas, some rural areas. Look and listen with an open mind. Read some U.S. history.

I don't see why my anecdotal experience would be more meaningful than anyone else's.

How do you think data is collected?

Observation provides context. Look, I understand that traveling between the U.S. and Australia is very expensive and time consuming--the primary reasons I haven't been to Australia. But you seem very interested in issues about race in the U.S. and I don't think it is possible to get a very complete understanding just from reading studies and piles of data. I didn't offer the suggestion as a criticism but as a suggestion because you genuinely seem to be interested in issues. At some point, it is important to make your own observations.

 

[Toni]

No: that's speculation. We don't know what the rate of misbehaviour by race is. We don't even have suspension rates from a single school. So, we have no idea, from the OP anecdote, whether Black children are misbehaving more (but given the socioeconomic circumstances that Black children are more likely to experience, it's probably true that they do misbehave more).

Well since you are assuming then so will I. For over five-years I owned a child care center that served a low income demographic (80% of my enrollment was subsidized). Our racial mix was fairly even among white, black and hispanic (although the majority of students were "mixed"). For two years I taught the VPK class (4-year olds). My finding are....no, black kids do NOT get into more trouble, are NOT more violent or disrespectful etc. etc. The two worst behaved children were a white boy child (with a mental disorder not yet diagnosed) and a mixed (black/white) girl whose father was in and out of jail and abusive when home.

In the overall student population, the worst behaved children were white. All except one. However, these children were typically in temporary foster care and came from home environments that NO PERSON, let alone a child should have to suffer through. These kids had anger management and trust issues big time.

So, although I cannot speak for the OP, nor can I say this scenario is typical, but I can say that Metaphor's 'assumption' about black children misbehaving more often due to socioeconomics is not true. I found it's less about being poor and more about witnessing and suffering from violence, neglect and abuse which we all know can happen at any socioeconomic level. The biggest problem for children in the lower socioeconomic demographics, that have parents that care enough to put them in a preschool program, is LACK OF RESOURCES and for the parent, LACK OF QUALITY TIME.

I also worked in a preschool setting which specifically served low income children and families. Most children were white, with one black family, one Hispanic family, several families who recently immigrated from S.E. Asia, one family who recently immigrated from the Mid East and one family with mixed race children.

My observations are pretty much in line with Playball: the kids who had trouble were the kids who had very unstable home lives (usually due to mental illness and/or substance abuse).

 

[AthenaAwakened]

No data? Isn't the fact that Black kids are suspended three times as often as White kids data?

it is data that The black kids get suspended more not that black kids misbehave more or that they deserve those suspensions. That's the bone of contention here.

You'd have to be doing extreme mental gymnastics not to believe that Black kids misbehave more.

no actually I don't. Having taught school for eight years, I can assure you white children are just as horrible and just a delightful as black children. But I forget, I don't agree with you so my experience is maeningless.

Children from single-parent households have more behavioural problems. Black children are more likely to come from single-parent households. Black children are more likely to come from reduced socioeconomic status households. Black children are more likely to live in households with less stable tenure (renting versus owning). It would be a miracle if they didn't misbehave more.

and yet study and after study controlling for income, stability, marital status of parents still shows disparate treatment of children, even when all other variables are held equal. The only difference is who gets the harsher penalties for the same infraction and black kids, even on first offenses, get harsher punishment than white children. Even when they are there years old.

, but is a country with a history of racism you don't believe racism is a major factor in a phenomenon that has racist outcomes?

You haven't defined what a racist outcome is. Is it any process that involves ethnic groups being over or underrepresented relative to the population?

Do you think the NBA is a racist outcome?

the NBA?

Sixty years ago, the NBA was a Jewish league. The general belief was that Jews were just naturally gifted as basketball players.

Do you think the NBA was being anti-gentile sixty years ago?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Here is an abstract from a very interesting and on point paper regarding the "color of discipline"

Disproportionate representation of minority students, especially African Americans, in a variety of school disciplinary procedures has been documented almost continuously for the past 25 years, yet there has been little study of the factors contributing to that disproportionality. Whether disparate treatment of a group can be judged as bias depends largely on the extent to which other hypotheses that could provide a credible alternative explanation of the discrepancy can be ruled out. In this study, investigation of three alternative hypotheses led to different conclusions for disproportionate representation based on gender, race, and socioeconomic status. First, racial and gender discrepancies in school disciplinary outcomes were consistent regardless of methodology, but socioeconomic disparities appeared to be somewhat less robust. Second, we found no evidence that racial disparities disappear when controlling for poverty status; instead, disproportionality in suspension appears to be due to prior disproportionality in referrals to the office. Finally, although discriminant analysis suggests that disproportionate rates of office referral and suspension for boys are due to increased rates of misbehavior, no support was found for the hypothesis that African American students act out more than other students. Rather, African American students appear to be referred to the office for less serious and more subjective reasons. Coupled with extensive and highly consistent prior data, these results argue that disproportionate representation of African Americans in office referrals, suspension and expulsion is evidence of a pervasive and systematic bias that may well be inherent in the use of exclusionary discipline

Be back with the link

http://www.indiana.edu/~safeschl/cod.pdf

 

[Sabine Grant]

By Metaphor :I don't see why my anecdotal experience would be more meaningful than anyone else's.

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

 

[Playball40]

By Metaphor :I don't see why my anecdotal experience would be more meaningful than anyone else's.

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

I'm our PTA President.

 

[Metaphor]

and yet study and after study controlling for income, stability, marital status of parents still shows disparate treatment of children, even when all other variables are held equal. The only difference is who gets the harsher penalties for the same infraction and black kids, even on first offenses, get harsher punishment than white children. Even when they are there years old.

Which studies? You and Toni keep saying that but I want to read them.

the NBA?

Sixty years ago, the NBA was a Jewish league. The general belief was that Jews were just naturally gifted as basketball players.

Do you think the NBA was being anti-gentile sixty years ago?

I don't know if you're taking the piss. This wiki article mentions nothing about a 'Jewish league' at any time in NBA history. I do recall a wickedly funny joke from 'Airplane!' The stewardess is handing out reading material to flight passengers and someone asks if she has any light reading. 'I have this leaflet' she says 'on Jewish sporting legends'.

But back to reality. The NBA is 78% Black, and it looks to have been that way since at least 1990. This is obviously a gross over-representation of Black players, compared to the American population.

But do I believe it's being fueled by racist stereotypes about White men being unable to jump? No. I believe that Black men, as a group, have greater talent and/or interest in playing professional basketball and this is reflected by the league composition.

Interesting that on the page I linked to, a former player said the NBA needs more White players, because most of the fans are White.

Should we get some affirmative action in the NBA, or do you accept that, even if there are positive stereotypes about Black basketball performance, the pool of Black candidates is just larger and that's how it is?

 

[Metaphor]

By Metaphor :I don't see why my anecdotal experience would be more meaningful than anyone else's.

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

Oh clearly, I should just shut up then. How dare I ask for evidence for extraordinary claims. I see I should simply take it on faith from my elders and social betters.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Which studies? You and Toni keep saying that but I want to read them.

the NBA?

Sixty years ago, the NBA was a Jewish league. The general belief was that Jews were just naturally gifted as basketball players.

Do you think the NBA was being anti-gentile sixty years ago?

I don't know if you're taking the piss. This wiki article mentions nothing about a 'Jewish league' at any time in NBA history. I do recall a wickedly funny joke from 'Airplane!' The stewardess is handing out reading material to flight passengers and someone asks if she has any light reading. 'I have this leaflet' she says 'on Jewish sporting legends'.

But back to reality. The NBA is 78% Black, and it looks to have been that way since at least 1990. This is obviously a gross over-representation of Black players, compared to the American population.

But do I believe it's being fueled by racist stereotypes about White men being unable to jump? No. I believe that Black men, as a group, have greater talent and/or interest in playing professional basketball and this is reflected by the league composition.

Interesting that on the page I linked to, a former player said the NBA needs more White players, because most of the fans are White.

Should we get some affirmative action in the NBA, or do you accept that, even if there are positive stereotypes about Black basketball performance, the pool of Black candidates is just larger and that's how it is?

did your google break

If you care, you'll look. hell, if you care you'll look a few post up and see the entire abstract from one such study with a link to the entire paper.

the NBA trope is tired, hacknyed and has been answered many time over many threads and at least three message boards. Again look it up and not on Wikipedia.


But let's face it. You won't look anything up because it's not that important to you otherwise you would have done so already. When I wanted to know more about racism in society, I went back to university and studied social stratification. You OTOH can't be bother to do a google search or evidently read the very thread you are posting in.

Do your own damn homework.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

Oh clearly, I should just shut up then. How dare I ask for evidence for extraordinary claims. I see I should simply take it on faith from my elders and social betters.

the claims are not extraordinary and if you knew anything about the racial history of the US or for that matter current events in the US, you would know this is not extraordinary but pretty much par the course.

 

[Toni]

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

Oh clearly, I should just shut up then. How dare I ask for evidence for extraordinary claims. I see I should simply take it on faith from my elders and social betters.

I'm sure I am older than you are but I cannot fathom how you get the idea that I am your 'social better.' The whole notion of being someone's 'social better' is just bizarre to me.

 

[Metaphor]

did your google break

No. You've made a claim -- that racism plays a significant role in the preschool suspension differential between Black and White children.

I provided evidence that children from single-parent families have more behavioural problems, and Black children are more likely to come from single parent families. It therefore comes as no surprise to me that they're suspended at a higher rate.

If you care, you'll look. hell, if you care you'll look a few post up and see the entire abstract from one such study with a link to the entire paper.

I did look. I didn't find anything. Have you looked? What is your evidence?

the NBA trope is tired, hacknyed and has been answered many time over many threads and at least three message boards. Again look it up and not on Wikipedia.

How has it been 'answered'?

But let's face it. You won't look anything up because it's not that important to you otherwise you would have done so already. When I wanted to know more about racism in society, I went back to university and studied social stratification. You OTOH can't be bother to do a google search or evidently read the very thread you are posting in.

Do your own damn homework.

This is absolutely ridiculous. I looked up the NBA to see what you were talking about and I found nothing. But, I absolutely have no idea what you think it would prove if there used to be a stereotype that Jews were natural born basketball players. So what?

 

[Metaphor]

Oh clearly, I should just shut up then. How dare I ask for evidence for extraordinary claims. I see I should simply take it on faith from my elders and social betters.

the claims are not extraordinary and if you knew anything about the racial history of the US or for that matter current events in the US, you would know this is not extraordinary but pretty much par the course.

no: what I find extraordinary is that you would deny established psychological research about how socioeconomic and other family circumstances influence child behaviour, you would deny that Black children experience these negative circumstances at higher rates (even though no-one denies these facts, usually), and therefore you make the extraordinary claim that racist child carers all across America suspend Black children at rates grossly disproportionate to the childrens' misbehaviour.

 

[Toni]

the claims are not extraordinary and if you knew anything about the racial history of the US or for that matter current events in the US, you would know this is not extraordinary but pretty much par the course.

no: what I find extraordinary is that you would deny established psychological research about how socioeconomic and other family circumstances influence child behaviour, you would deny that Black children experience these negative circumstances at higher rates (even though no-one denies these facts, usually), and therefore you make the extraordinary claim that racist child carers all across America suspend Black children at rates grossly disproportionate to the childrens' misbehaviour.

It ain't just poor black kids living in the projects with crack addicted mothers and anonymous fathers who are getting suspended at higher rates than white kids.

BTW, white kids also live in the projects and have drug addict parents, parents who are MIA, etc.

The claim isn't that preschool teachers are racist. It's that society is racist and that the racism exists in schools at all levels as it does everywhere else. And that preschool teachers are not immune to racism.

In the U.S., very few people these days don't believe that blacks and whites should have the same rights and the same opportunities (unless their white kid or white self doesn't make a cut and then it is definitely because of an undeserving black kid). There are some, sure. Sadly. Horribly. Most people would agree with the idea that there should be equal rights for all. But then it gets tricky as some of these non-racists begin to add in qualifiers.

Much more prevalent, much more insidious is the belief--conscious or not--that blacks are somehow not quite as capable. Expectations are lower. Certain kids are automatically funneled into remedial programs. The behavior of certain kids is scrutinized more closely and judged more harshly.

Where I live: they just feel sorry for the poor, poor black kids. Which never did anybody any good. Which is why my area has one of the worst disparities in graduation rates in the U.S. despite simultaneously having one of the highest reputations for educational excellence.

Can you think of a single reason that a child should not be treated differently than another child because of the color of their skin?

 

[Playball40]

the claims are not extraordinary and if you knew anything about the racial history of the US or for that matter current events in the US, you would know this is not extraordinary but pretty much par the course.

no: what I find extraordinary is that you would deny established psychological research about how socioeconomic and other family circumstances influence child behaviour, you would deny that Black children experience these negative circumstances at higher rates (even though no-one denies these facts, usually), and therefore you make the extraordinary claim that racist child carers all across America suspend Black children at rates grossly disproportionate to the childrens' misbehaviour.

So how do you explain that more white children are born each year to single mothers than black? (numbers, not a percentage of children born). As such more white children born to single mothers are in preschool, and yet, black children are still being punished more often? And again, since you clearly have NOT worked at length with preschool children...the biggest factor effecting behavior is NOT poverty, but abuse.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Metaphor

Here is you problem

You assume the poor black kids are going to school with middle class or rich white kids

They aren't.

so, as a rule, you have children with the relative same socio-economic background going to school together. And now, with the current resegregation of a growing number of schools you don't even have black students and white students in the same school. Add to that that these schools are more likely to have inexperienced teachers and in some schools, teacher still working toward their permanent license, you get teachers easily rattled, even by three year olds and that isn't because of misbehavior of ghetto children.

 

[Metaphor]

So how do you explain that more white children are born each year to single mothers than black? (numbers, not a percentage of children born).

What is there to 'explain'?

As such more white children born to single mothers are in preschool, and yet, black children are still being punished more often?

No: they're not being punished more often in raw numbers (they're only 48% of suspensions). More White kids are suspended if you go by raw numbers.

But of course, going by raw numbers for either the number of single parent families or the number of suspensions is stupid. It makes no sense.

These CDC figures show that 72% of non-Hispanic Black children were born to unmarried mothers, while the rate for non-Hispanic Whites was 29%. Even if there were no other differences between White and Black families, you'd expect that that fact alone to make a difference in suspension rates.

And again, since you clearly have NOT worked at length with preschool children...the biggest factor effecting behavior is NOT poverty, but abuse.

Black children are twice as likely as White children to be abused

http://www.theroot.com/articles/cul...atistics_report_debunks_bias_assumptions.html

As I've said before, it would be a miracle if Black children were not misbehaving more.

 

[Sabine Grant]

What you keep dismissing as "anecdotal experience" is how anyone benefiting of long term observation will gain insights you cannot have at this point. It is an established fact that you have zero insights based on any long term observation of the diversity of mentalities in the US. Some of us do because we have indeed been in "rural areas and urban areas". Some of us have raised children throughout the US Public Education System and have even played an advocacy role and mentoring role with children coming from disadvantaged socio economical groups.Some of us have wondered why, and reflected at length and again based on our long term direct observation, there is such disparity in the way Black schooled children are treated by some educators and school administrators versus Caucasian children.

Some of us are very familiar with the influence exercised by PTA parents, PTA organizations often contributing to fund raising programs. So often, we have observed how Mrs Smith's upper middle class son or daughter, while she occupies the position of PTA President, will be favored by some of the teachers and school administrators. We know that money and social class influence talks louder than fairness and consistency.

Some of us do not demand data to support the claim of Black children meeting disproportionate disciplinary actions compared with Caucasian children. We have observed it directly long term and have personally intervened. And as far as I am concerned, the even greater demonstration of unfair treatment I directly witnessed also within the educational system catering to the Department of Defense (DODD School system) military and civilian personnel dependents. My mediating on behalf of enlisted service members' dependent children versus officer(0) ranked military personnel. To where school Principals were notoriously known for bowing to the presence of a heavy brass parent while communicating and interacting with an enlisted parent as some insignificant party. Taking in consideration that the "heavy brass" was always representative of the White majority group while our enlisted parents represented ethnic minorities. Many of them being single mothers , enlisted rank varying from E 1 to E 5.

Oh clearly, I should just shut up then. How dare I ask for evidence for extraordinary claims. I see I should simply take it on faith from my elders and social betters.

I am not sure why you would go to the extreme of shutting up. The middle ground for you would be to stop denigrating the insights shared in this thread by folks who have benefited of long term observation as "anecdotal experience" as if it is chopped liver.

And like Toni, I have no idea what a "social better" is supposed to be.

Also, as you previously drew a broad brush portraying of single parents producing children who will misbehave, you need to know that it is the type of belief the Religious Right propagates in the US. Being part of their agenda regarding the "real" family unit demanding a father and a mother. While they vilify single parents and of course same gender parents. Portraying them as producing dysfunctional children.

I am curious....but would you denigrate insights regarding how children of same gender couples are "greeted" by prejudice and unequal treatment in American schools? Would you demand data or acknowledge the lingering and nauseating prejudice targeting GLBT persons and their children?

The primary cause of schooled children acting out their distress via misbehaving is indeed a household undermined by a dysfunctional parent, whether such parent be the source of domestic violence, whether such parent be a substance abuser such as alcohol or drugs and as previously mentioned mental illness.

Being raised in a poor household in no way means that such child will be misbehaving. In my childhood, I had a taste of being in a poor household when I lived with my grand parents in Morocco where I experienced a caring and nurturing parenting to compare with the distress inducing climate of returning with my parents as my mother was schizophrenic. If I did not act out my distress via misbehaving in school then, I acted it out by becoming anorexic. But the undeniable trigger was my mother as a persistently dysfunctional parent.

 

[Metaphor]

Metaphor

Here is you problem

You assume the poor black kids are going to school with middle class or rich white kids

They aren't.

so, as a rule, you have children with the relative same socio-economic background going to school together. And now, with the current resegregation of a growing number of schools you don't even have black students and white students in the same school. Add to that that these schools are more likely to have inexperienced teachers and in some schools, teacher still working toward their permanent license, you get teachers easily rattled, even by three year olds and that isn't because of misbehavior of ghetto children.

What kinds of behaviours qualify a preschool child to be suspended is a different debate. But, lest my posts have been misunderstood, I want to make the following clear

i) Black preschool children are being suspended at a rate about 3x that of White children (this is not in disagreement)
ii) I think that 'suspension worthy' judgments will differ from teacher to teacher and school to school, and it probably has an unconscious race element
iii) Looking at the suspension rate difference between Black kids and White kids does not tell you whether there is a race element in teachers' judgments, because we don't know about the objective rate of suspension worthy misbehaviour difference
iv) Black children are born to younger mothers, into more single-parent families, into lower socioeconomic circumstances than White children, as well as a host of other Black White differences and all of which you would expect to increase the misbehaviour rate of Black children over White children
v) There could be a large Black-White suspension rate difference even if no single school actually had any race-bias nor did Black children misbehave more. That seems paradoxical but if schools are very segregated, and Black kids go to schools with higher suspension rates/more hair-trigger policies, then no single school would need to have a race-based element but Black suspensions would still be higher
vi) The data are consistent with a number of scenarios and I see no easy way to differentiate between their likelihoods without additional data.

 

[Metaphor]

Also, as you previously drew a broad brush portraying of single parents producing children who will misbehave, you need to know that it is the type of belief the Religious Right propagates in the US. Being part of their agenda regarding the "real" family unit demanding a father and a mother. While they vilify single parents and of course same gender parents. Portraying them as producing dysfunctional children.

I want to believe as many true things as possible, and not believe false things. It is a brute fact that children in single-parent families are more likely to have behavioural problems. It remains a brute fact even if the religious right believes it. It remains a brute fact even if it's useful propaganda for the religious right.

I am curious....but would you denigrate insights regarding how children of same gender couples are "greeted" by prejudice and unequal treatment in American schools? Would you demand data or acknowledge the lingering and nauseating prejudice targeting GLBT persons and their children?

I have never denigrated anecdotes. However, I deplore the use of anecdotes as some kind of rebuttal to statistical facts, because they are not rebuttals.

But let's say there was some data that showed that children of LGBT parents dropped out of high school earlier than other children. I would want to investigate the demographic differences between these children and other children first, to see if those factors would account for any of the difference.

The primary cause of schooled children acting out their distress via misbehaving is indeed a household undermined by a dysfunctional parent, whether such parent be the source of domestic violence, whether such parent be a substance abuser such as alcohol or drugs and as previously mentioned mental illness.

Being raised in a poor household in no way means that such child will be misbehaving. In my childhood, I had a taste of being in a poor household when I lived with my grand parents in Morocco where I experienced a caring and nurturing parenting to compare with the distress inducing climate of returning with my parents as my mother was schizophrenic. If I did not act out my distress via misbehaving in school then, I acted it out by becoming anorexic. But the undeniable trigger was my mother as a persistently dysfunctional parent.

I did not say that poverty was a 100% guarantee of misbehaviour. Who would ever say such a thing? But do I think there is probably more misbehaviour of children who live under the poverty line compared to children who do not? I would find it a miracle if there were not.