Arrested Development: The Pre-school to Suspension Pipeline

[AthenaAwakened]

It is very easy for some people to look at crime stats and prison stats, see a disproportionate number of black people represented and then say, "Blacks just commit more crime."

But three year olds?

Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?

Before those among us who think black people are "culturally" predisposed to bad behavior answer, and you know who you are, keep in mind that everyone here has experienced three year old children, in all the colors of the rainbow. We have experienced them in classrooms, in supermarkets, on airplanes, in restaurants and in our homes.

So chose your words well.

 

[Metaphor]

Isn't this an empirical question requiring investigation?

I'll bet that boys are more likely to be suspended than girls. Would that be because preschool teachers are sexist?

 

[laughing dog]

Isn't this an empirical question requiring investigation?

I'll bet that boys are more likely to be suspended than girls. Would that be because preschool teachers are sexist?

Actually, it might be part of it. In my experience, plenty of women who teach do not understand young boys, and that does cause them to be harsher on them.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Isn't this an empirical question requiring investigation?

I'll bet that boys are more likely to be suspended than girls. Would that be because preschool teachers are sexist?

Actually there is a research spanning decades that says just that.

Now care to answer the question. You don't have to supply reams of data, (unless you want to or your argument requires them), just in your own words and your own experiences,

do you personally think that the disparities in the numbers of black vs white preschoolers who are suspended from preschools is because black preschoolers are choosing to behave worse than white preschoolers?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The OP links a video to CNN... a news source that is frivelous at best. So I dare not waste 7 minutes of my life to watch and see whether this is about a study or an investigation, whether it took financial dynamics into account.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The OP links a video to CNN... a news source that is frivelous at best. So I dare not waste 7 minutes of my life to watch and see whether this is about a study or an investigation, whether it took financial dynamics into account.

uh

Actually it links to a panel discussion of a Washington editorial on the The Young Turks.

 

[EricK]

We have all experienced 3 year olds, and so we all know that not all 3 year olds behave in the same way. As such there must be factors which cause some 3 year olds to behave better than others. Unless you have taken these possible factors into account it is a huge leap to go from noticing a disparity in the racial make up of suspendees and concluding that disparity is due to either race or to racism.

Here are some possible factors:
Children from single parent families might be more likely to be troublesome than children from two-parent families as they have no positive male role model, and this sort of family set up might be more prevalent among the black families in the study than white
Children from large families might be more likely to get into trouble than children with fewer siblings as they will have received a smaller proportion of parental attention; and large families might be more prevalent in these black families
Children without siblings might be more likely to get into trouble than children with siblings because they are less used to dealing with other children and less used to not always getting their own way - and there might be more of these families
Children with a relative in jail might be more likely to get into trouble as they have a negative role model in the family - and this might be more prevalent in that particular group.
and so on.

By the way, does anybody else hate the sort of segment linked to here. They are pretending to have a discussion about the topic, but are merely all agreeing with each other and congratulating each other on how perceptive they all are.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

We have all experienced 3 year olds, and so we all know that not all 3 year olds behave in the same way. As such there must be factors which cause some 3 year olds to behave better than others. Unless you have taken these possible factors into account it is a huge leap to go from noticing a disparity in the racial make up of suspendees and concluding that disparity is due to either race or to racism.

Here are some possible factors:
Children from single parent families might be more likely to be troublesome than children from two-parent families as they have no positive male role model, and this sort of family set up might be more prevalent among the black families in the study than white
Children from large families might be more likely to get into trouble than children with fewer siblings as they will have received a smaller proportion of parental attention; and large families might be more prevalent in these black families
Children without siblings might be more likely to get into trouble than children with siblings because they are less used to dealing with other children and less used to not always getting their own way - and there might be more of these families
Children with a relative in jail might be more likely to get into trouble as they have a negative role model in the family - and this might be more prevalent in that particular group.
and so on.

By the way, does anybody else hate the sort of segment linked to here. They are pretending to have a discussion about the topic, but are merely all agreeing with each other and congratulating each other on how perceptive they all are.

uh huh

Would you now care to answer the question posed?

I will make it easier for you by providing the actual editorial about the real life incident that sparked the discussion.

You need only address that if it will make you feel more at ease with situation.

Brb

Back

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...4/my-son-has-been-suspended-five-times-hes-3/

 

[NobleSavage]

Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

I want some of that Nigerian privilege.

 

[thebeave]

We have all experienced 3 year olds, and so we all know that not all 3 year olds behave in the same way. As such there must be factors which cause some 3 year olds to behave better than others. Unless you have taken these possible factors into account it is a huge leap to go from noticing a disparity in the racial make up of suspendees and concluding that disparity is due to either race or to racism.

Here are some possible factors:
Children from single parent families might be more likely to be troublesome than children from two-parent families as they have no positive male role model, and this sort of family set up might be more prevalent among the black families in the study than white
Children from large families might be more likely to get into trouble than children with fewer siblings as they will have received a smaller proportion of parental attention; and large families might be more prevalent in these black families
Children without siblings might be more likely to get into trouble than children with siblings because they are less used to dealing with other children and less used to not always getting their own way - and there might be more of these families
Children with a relative in jail might be more likely to get into trouble as they have a negative role model in the family - and this might be more prevalent in that particular group.
and so on.

By the way, does anybody else hate the sort of segment linked to here. They are pretending to have a discussion about the topic, but are merely all agreeing with each other and congratulating each other on how perceptive they all are.

You have much to learn about race threads young Skywalker. Your skepticism, analysis, reason, questions & investigation are not welcome here. So, as requested, please just answer the question. Here's a hint on the answer:

Show

Whitey's keepin' em down

 

[EricK]

Would you now care to answer the question posed?

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above.

To put it into more concrete terms, suppose (and this is just a hypothetical example) that the exact same data is re-analaysed but instead of dividing it up as black v white, it is divided up as, say, single parent parent family v two parent family. And suppose the data showed that despite single parent families being a minority, 90% of those suspended came from single parent families. Then I think it would be reasonable to assume that this was the predominant factor in what leads some children to be suspended and others not, and the colour of the children was just a red herring.

 

[thebeave]

There you go, over analyzing things again.

 

[laughing dog]

Would you now care to answer the question posed?

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above. ....

The long answer is I don't know as well but I can come up with a number possible casual factors unrelated to race.

However, I think a more interesting question is what expectations or rules does a 3 year old have to break in order to get suspended, and are those expectations/rules reasonable?

 

[EricK]

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above. ....

The long answer is I don't know as well but I can come up with a number possible casual factors unrelated to race.

However, I think a more interesting question is what expectations or rules does a 3 year old have to break in order to get suspended, and are those expectations/rules reasonable?

Indeed.

But another point, is that I wouldn't be surprised if children who have been suspended before are more likely to be suspended again even if their behaviour improves somewhat. i.e behaviour which wouldn't get another child suspended, and which wouldn't have got this child suspended if it was his "first offence", result in a suspension - "there he goes again, what are we going to do with him". And although that isn't necessarily fair or right, it does mean that comparing what someone did to get his 4th suspension with what someone "of previous good character" did which didn't result in a suspension, might show the existence of a genuine bias, but not the one hinted at in the OP.

 

[RavenSky]

Ancedote does not equal data, so I don't think any general conclusion can be drawn from the specific editorial, but I can understand why the author would be alarmed:

“JJ?” one mother asked.

“My son threw something at a kid on purpose and the kid had to be rushed to the hospital,” another parent said. “All I got was a phone call.”

One after another, white mothers confessed the trouble their children had gotten into. Some of the behavior was similar to JJ’s; some was much worse.

Most startling: None of their children had been suspended.

So her son threw a chair and didn't hit anyone - got suspended. Another boy threw a chair AT someone hard enough to send the other child to the hospital - no suspension. I'm curious what other factors could account for the difference in punishments?

I suspect part of the reason may be contained in the article linked to within the article Athena linked to:

“Children in most societies are considered to be in a distinct group with characteristics such as innocence and the need for protection. Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent,” said author Phillip Atiba Goff, PhD, of the University of California, Los Angeles. The study was published online in APA’s Journal of Personality and Social Psychology®.

“The evidence shows that perceptions of the essential nature of children can be affected by race, and for black children, this can mean they lose the protection afforded by assumed childhood innocence well before they become adults,” said co-author Matthew Jackson, PhD, also of UCLA. “With the average age overestimation for black boys exceeding four-and-a-half years, in some cases, black children may be viewed as adults when they are just 13 years old.”

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Nigerians make up less than 1 percent of the black population in the United States, yet in 2013 nearly one-quarter of the black students at Harvard Business School were of Nigerian ancestry; over a fourth of Nigerian-Americans have a graduate or professional degree, as compared with only about 11 percent of whites

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

I want some of that Nigerian privilege.

which has what to do with the question at hand?

- - - Updated - - -

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above. ....

The long answer is I don't know as well but I can come up with a number possible casual factors unrelated to race.

However, I think a more interesting question is what expectations or rules does a 3 year old have to break in order to get suspended, and are those expectations/rules reasonable?

and these reasons mean what exactly? That race is not a factor?

 

[Toni]

Would you now care to answer the question posed?

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above.

To put it into more concrete terms, suppose (and this is just a hypothetical example) that the exact same data is re-analaysed but instead of dividing it up as black v white, it is divided up as, say, single parent parent family v two parent family. And suppose the data showed that despite single parent families being a minority, 90% of those suspended came from single parent families. Then I think it would be reasonable to assume that this was the predominant factor in what leads some children to be suspended and others not, and the colour of the children was just a red herring.

Where to start:

Children who are being abused or neglected at home tend to have behavior problems. This is not limited to single parent homes nor is it limited to families of certain racial or ethnic groups nor is it limited to certain socioeconomic groups.

You know who else has behavior problems? Children who are over indulged.

Children of single mothers are often assumed to be lacking in certain skills and to have more behavior problems, regardless of race, socioeconomic or educational status. Singleothers are often assumed to be irresponsible and promiscuous even when divorced or widowed.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post bit there seems to be an implication that black families have more children than white families. In my observation (living in a highly catholic area) children from large families are generally well behaved, know how to share and get along with others.

In my experience, teachers and schools do often have favorites and scapegoats. They often make some pretty broad assumptions about a students behavior and abilities based upon how a child (and patens) dress, perceived socioeconomic and educational status of the parents, marital stays of the parents, and yes: race of child and parents.

 

[laughing dog]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

I want some of that Nigerian privilege.

which has what to do with the question at hand?

- - - Updated - - -

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above. ....

The long answer is I don't know as well but I can come up with a number possible casual factors unrelated to race.

However, I think a more interesting question is what expectations or rules does a 3 year old have to break in order to get suspended, and are those expectations/rules reasonable?

and these reasons mean what exactly? That race is not a factor?

I don't think so. Given the disproportionate imbalance, I suspect race is a factor. But I'd like to know what does a 3 year old have to do to get suspended?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

which has what to do with the question at hand?

- - - Updated - - -

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above. ....

The long answer is I don't know as well but I can come up with a number possible casual factors unrelated to race.

However, I think a more interesting question is what expectations or rules does a 3 year old have to break in order to get suspended, and are those expectations/rules reasonable?

and these reasons mean what exactly? That race is not a factor?

I don't think so. Given the disproportionate imbalance, I suspect race is a factor. But I'd like to know what does a 3 year old have to do to get suspended?

Evidently, act like a three year old.

 

[EricK]

If the question is "Are black three year old kids choosing to be bad kids more often than white three year old kids?" then I thought I had answered it.
The short answer is I don't know, based on the evidence provided.
The medium length answer is I don't know - there's not even enough data to conclude that race is a factor at all, either in the behaviour of the children or in the reaction of the teachers
The long answer is as explained above.

To put it into more concrete terms, suppose (and this is just a hypothetical example) that the exact same data is re-analaysed but instead of dividing it up as black v white, it is divided up as, say, single parent parent family v two parent family. And suppose the data showed that despite single parent families being a minority, 90% of those suspended came from single parent families. Then I think it would be reasonable to assume that this was the predominant factor in what leads some children to be suspended and others not, and the colour of the children was just a red herring.

Where to start:

Children who are being abused or neglected at home tend to have behavior problems. This is not limited to single parent homes nor is it limited to families of certain racial or ethnic groups nor is it limited to certain socioeconomic groups.

You know who else has behavior problems? Children who are over indulged.

Children of single mothers are often assumed to be lacking in certain skills and to have more behavior problems, regardless of race, socioeconomic or educational status. Singleothers are often assumed to be irresponsible and promiscuous even when divorced or widowed.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your post bit there seems to be an implication that black families have more children than white families. In my observation (living in a highly catholic area) children from large families are generally well behaved, know how to share and get along with others.

In my experience, teachers and schools do often have favorites and scapegoats. They often make some pretty broad assumptions about a students behavior and abilities based upon how a child (and patens) dress, perceived socioeconomic and educational status of the parents, marital stays of the parents, and yes: race of child and parents.

You are indeed misunderstanding my post. I wasn't intending to imply that any of those factors actually are more prevalent among black families, or even that I think they do cause greater behavioural issues. I was just making the point that seeing a difference in race does not mean that race actually has anything to do with it. I tried to make that clear by mentioning contradictory possibilities (children from large families might, on average, be worst behaved due to less parental supervision per child; alternatively, children without siblings might be worse behaved because they are not used to interacting with other children, or because they are spoiled etc). I can give you two more 'contradictory' factors: It might be the case that children who are disciplined a lot at home, act up more at school because it is an outlet for their mischief. Alternatively it might be the case that too little discipline at home leads to bad behaviour at school because they never expect to be punished for what they do.

And of course with any these factors it could be the case that it has no effect, on average, on how children behave. But it's the sort of thing which should be investigated before jumping to conclusions like black children are worst behaved or teachers are racist.