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At least 6 dead in Mass Shooting du Jour

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Agreed.

No, it has to do with the number of victims, usually around 4 or 5. There are several definitions, but they tend to be similar and none exclude gangbangers shooting at each other.

I'd go with what the term mass shooting has historically been used for the most. Such as shooter(s) deliberately trying to kill as many innocent bystanders as possible. It's my preference.

That is indeed a good question.

I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this

1649698188015.png

You seeing a human enjoying nature
Me seeing an asshole ruining a good hangout spot for the birds


I'll save us time. :cool:
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom
Wipepo?

Who you trying to fool?
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom

This is a derail. But there is no point in my starting that discussion, as my opinion is that poverty is the most dominant force of crime rates. It just so happens that we live in one of the universes where African countries are the poorest (not that they don't have wealth it's just that it is being siphoned out). If we could visit an alternate universe where African Countries weren't the least wealthy I'd be able to prove my argument. Being that there aren't any graphs from a bunch of people with time on their hands (for example) tracking crime rates in Ethiopia during the 1300s I'm at a loss.
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom

This is a derail. But there is no point in my starting that discussion, as my opinion is that poverty is the most dominant force of crime rates. It just so happens that we live in one of the universes where African countries are the poorest (not that they don't have wealth it's just that it is being siphoned out). If we could visit an alternate universe where African Countries weren't the least wealthy I'd be able to prove my argument. Being that there aren't any graphs from a bunch of people with time on their hands (for example) tracking crime rates in Ethiopia during the 1300s I'm at a loss.
It's definitely a derail, that's why I suggested a new thread.

I didn't mean discussion on such a large level, around the globe and across the centuries. USA, in the 21st century, is quite large and complex enough for a IIDB thread. Frankly, I don't pretend to understand anywhere else to have a particularly informed opinion. Maybe Canada, certainly not South Africa.
Tom
 
An example of the armored vehicles being drven around in local communities by police

For police and sheriff's departments, which have scooped up 165 of the mine-resistant ambush-protected vehicles, or MRAPS, since they became available this summer, the price and the ability to deliver shock and awe while serving warrants or dealing with hostage standoffs was just too good to pass up.

"It's armored. It's heavy. It's intimidating. And it's free," said Albany County Sheriff Craig Apple, among five county sheriff's departments and three other police agencies in New York that have taken delivery of an MRAP.

View attachment 38074

The new MRAP truck will go into service after technicians remove the gun turret and change the paint from military sand to civilian black.
Sheriff Apple rejected the idea that the nation's police forces are becoming too militaristic.
Pondering how many school lunches that thing went for. Also, aren't we trying to deter crime, not shock and awe criminals that have already committed them?
 
Pondering how many school lunches that thing went for. Also, aren't we trying to deter crime, not shock and awe criminals that have already committed them?
Yeah, exactly.

My small and quite peaceful county bought something similar, about 10-12 years ago.

Someone wrote a rather scathing letter to the editor pointing out that the vehicle couldn't get to her neighborhood without circling out through adjoining counties. That's because a crucial bridge on County Road 800N had suffered enough damage during a recent flood that it's load limits had dropped far below that vehicle's weight. But the county hadn't yet found money in the budget to replace the elderly bridge.
Priorities and all.
Tom
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom

This is a derail. But there is no point in my starting that discussion, as my opinion is that poverty is the most dominant force of crime rates. It just so happens that we live in one of the universes where African countries are the poorest (not that they don't have wealth it's just that it is being siphoned out). If we could visit an alternate universe where African Countries weren't the least wealthy I'd be able to prove my argument. Being that there aren't any graphs from a bunch of people with time on their hands (for example) tracking crime rates in Ethiopia during the 1300s I'm at a loss.
Singapore is a small mostly island country with no natural resources. Yet it's one of the most advanced economies in the world. Human capital matters more than natural resources. (See also - South Korea.)
 
I still disagree about legalizing all adult sex work for all the reasons we've battled about many times.

No one has claimed that Wright was a saint but no, I don't think he deserved to die. The officers should never have pulled him over in the first place per pandemic instructions in effect at the time. They did NOT know there was a warrant out for his arrest until he was pulled over. It is still unclear whether or not he was ever served a warrant so it is possible he was unaware. Do I think he was a good person? Almost certainly not but I also don't believe in the death penalty and certainly not prior to even being arrested on those charges, much less tried and convicted. It was a terrible tragedy all around.
Note that he was committing two offenses at the time--the tag which they weren't stopping people for at that time and the air freshener hanging from the mirror (obstructed windshield) that we have no indication they weren't stopping people for.
Oh, I see, he was committing not one but two offenses. That makes it completely OK. He has an air freshener blocking part of his mirror - lets pull him over. Even though we have explicitly been instructed not to pull people over during the fucking pandemic for minor offenses, the air freshener is so fucking over the line we have to do something about it. And he might have been planning to use said air freshener as a deadly weapon - lets fucking shoot him for that.
 
I'd love to get into the details of why black on black crime happens more than other race on race but I'm certain that the discussion between you and I would look something like this
You're black.
You could start such a thread without getting as much flack as us wipepo would.
Tom

This is a derail. But there is no point in my starting that discussion, as my opinion is that poverty is the most dominant force of crime rates. It just so happens that we live in one of the universes where African countries are the poorest (not that they don't have wealth it's just that it is being siphoned out). If we could visit an alternate universe where African Countries weren't the least wealthy I'd be able to prove my argument. Being that there aren't any graphs from a bunch of people with time on their hands (for example) tracking crime rates in Ethiopia during the 1300s I'm at a loss.
Singapore is a small mostly island country with no natural resources. Yet it's one of the most advanced economies in the world. Human capital matters more than natural resources. (See also - South Korea.)
It wasn't "human capital" that made the British Empire pump vast resources into Singapore; Nor that made the US Empire pump similarly vast resources into South Korea.

Comes to that, Great Britain is a small island country with few natural resources. They became an advanced economy the same way Singapore and South Korea did - they took vast wealth from somewhere else.

The difference is that the British went and took it, rather than having it thrust upon them for other nations' strategic purposes. And they took it from ... (drum roll) ... the countries that are today suffering low levels of economic development despite having started with large amounts of natural resources.

The British (French, Belgians, Germans...) came, took their stuff (including large amounts of "human capital", aka "slaves") and shipped it to the places they wanted to develop.

Human capital my hairy arse.
 
I still disagree about legalizing all adult sex work for all the reasons we've battled about many times.

No one has claimed that Wright was a saint but no, I don't think he deserved to die. The officers should never have pulled him over in the first place per pandemic instructions in effect at the time. They did NOT know there was a warrant out for his arrest until he was pulled over. It is still unclear whether or not he was ever served a warrant so it is possible he was unaware. Do I think he was a good person? Almost certainly not but I also don't believe in the death penalty and certainly not prior to even being arrested on those charges, much less tried and convicted. It was a terrible tragedy all around.
Note that he was committing two offenses at the time--the tag which they weren't stopping people for at that time and the air freshener hanging from the mirror (obstructed windshield) that we have no indication they weren't stopping people for.
Oh, I see, he was committing not one but two offenses. That makes it completely OK. He has an air freshener blocking part of his mirror - lets pull him over. Even though we have explicitly been instructed not to pull people over during the fucking pandemic for minor offenses, the air freshener is so fucking over the line we have to do something about it. And he might have been planning to use said air freshener as a deadly weapon - lets fucking shoot him for that.
Yeah, they weren't stopping people for the air freshener thing either.
 
I still disagree about legalizing all adult sex work for all the reasons we've battled about many times.
Of course you do, but that's because you are an illiberal radfem. A SWERF even.
But let's not talk any more about that here, lest we upset Elixir.
No one has claimed that Wright was a saint but no, I don't think he deserved to die.
Saint. Prince. Not much of a difference.
Daunte Wright remembered as ‘prince of Brooklyn Center’

The officers should never have pulled him over in the first place per pandemic instructions in effect at the time. They did NOT know there was a warrant out for his arrest until he was pulled over.
I disagree. It was a good thing they stopped him and checked him for warrants. It was a good thing that they tried to arrest him. Where it went south is Potter mistaking her gun and taser, but that would not have happened had Wright not decided to run.

It is quite disingenuous when those on the left want to ban all sorts of guns but do not want gun criminals like Daunte Wright to be brought to justice. I think that after his bail violation (he was on bail for the robbery when he caught the gun possession case linked with the fatal warrant) he should have been remanded without bail anyway.

It is still unclear whether or not he was ever served a warrant so it is possible he was unaware.
He would have been aware that he missed his court case for the gun possession charge.

Do I think he was a good person? Almost certainly not but I also don't believe in the death penalty and certainly not prior to even being arrested on those charges, much less tried and convicted. It was a terrible tragedy all around.
It wasn't "death penalty". It was an accidental shooting, and, as you said, a terrible tragedy.
Running from police is stupid, even if some, including some on here, believe that it is not.
By running, you invite police to chase you, and you increase the chances of bad things happening, like a cop making a mistake.

I think our current catch/try/jail/imprison and release system is not very effective in terms of serving society, the victims of these crimes and those convicted very well. Restorative justice can be used with some criminal offenses and can be more effective than our current system of incarceration. Here's a linkhttps://ca.ctrinstitute.com/blog/5-principles-of-restorative-justice/
We are talking about serious crimes here. Assaults with a deadly weapon. Armed robberies. Or worse. I do not think "restorative justice" would work for anything but the least serious of crimes, and even then not for habitual offenders.

There are all sorts of weapons involved in gun crime. Assault weapons have no place in our society. I don't care if school shootings and theater shootings, etc. are a small fraction of the gun deaths in the US, their removal is only one first step in quelling the violence. Registration, licensure, mandatory background checks and mandatory gun safety and mandatory gun safe or other means to secure weapons should be enacted but honestly, we need to get rid of most of the guns.

I am for stricter background checks and registration. I am against banning certain guns such as so called "assault weapons". Yes, they are involved in relatively few criminal shootings compared to handguns. But that is not all. Do you think that if assault weapons were banned, school shooters and the like could not make do with other rifles or, even better, good old handguns? Adam Lanza for example did not just have an AR-15 style rifle, he also had a Glock pistol and a good old-fashioned bolt-action rifle.

The Clinton era style assault weapons ban is the wrong way to go. It should be more about people, less about the details of the gun like pistol grips or shoulder things that go up.

What we need is people control. Yes to background checks and such. But also yes to locking up gun criminals. Take this article about robberies in LA where the suspects are released over and over again by the "woke" fauxgressive DA Gascon.

17 L.A. gangs have sent out crews to follow and rob city’s wealthiest, LAPD says
The title is a bit deceptive, as the article makes clear that it is far more than "city's wealthiest" that are getting robbed. That said, these are the paragraphs I wanted to focus on:
LA Times said:
In some cases, suspects have been arrested but then released from custody, according to police, only to commit additional robberies.
[...]
Adams, according to Moore, was involved in eight separate follow-off robberies over a sixth-month period starting last fall, including one in which two UCLA students were robbed of two watches worth nearly $145,000 after leaving a club, a second in which two foreign tourists were robbed of watches worth $73,000, and a third in which $51,000 in property was stolen.
During the course of the eight robberies, which occurred between September and February, Adams was arrested three times. The first time was on Jan. 9, when Moore said Adams was found in a car that had been used in one of the robberies and where a gun was also found. Online court records show no charges were ever filed against Adams in that case, suggesting prosecutors were unconvinced they could win a conviction.
Adams was arrested again on Jan. 27 and a third time on Feb. 21, and in both cases charged with illegal gun possession. Court records show he was ordered released each time without having to pay bail. The reason was a pandemic-related rule, aimed at reducing the jail population, that requires L.A. County defendants to be released without posting bail for certain offenses.
After his fourth arrest, he is being kept in custody, for now. One reason he had been released is Garcon.
Moore said Adams’ earlier and repeated releases from custody endangered public safety, and that people who are repeatedly arrested for gun crimes should not be let out before trial. He also suggested that prosecutors played a part by not seeking certain charging enhancements to those brought against Adams that might have kept him in jail.
Moore said he was “disappointed” that “the full weight of our existing laws” was not brought down on Adams — not only to hold him accountable, but to provide a disincentive for other would-be robbers who might think such crimes are going unpunished in L.A.
Another repeat offender:
In a separate case, a man named Cheyenne Hale, 25, was arrested this month on suspicion of participating in the armed robbery of a man in downtown L.A. in October in which two watches estimated to be worth about $600,000 were stolen.
Police said they recovered a loaded gun from Hale during his arrest and that detectives in Tippet’s unit later found seven additional handguns, $21,000 in cash and “a large quantity of drugs” including cocaine and methamphetamine when they served a search warrant at Hale’s home.Nonetheless, Hale — who could not be reached for comment — has since been released from custody, according to court records.
We need to go after gun criminals, and not give them a pass. Police are arresting them, but they are being let go. Over and over again. What cities like LA and NYC are doing is counterproductive. It is policing/criminal justice reform done badly. Hopefully Mayor Adams does some good fixing DeBlasio's deforms. But that still leaves DA Bragg and the idiotic legislature in Albany. California may be a lost cause altogether.

As for what police equipment I think police should NOT have: I'm very concerned about policing and police equipment that trains police and arms them as though they are an occupying force in a hostile territory rather than members of the community whose job it is to serve .
Too much is being made of this I think. This equipment is used for special tasks, not in everyday policing. I do not think police should be denied the equipment to respond to infrequent, but very serious scenarios. Barricaded criminals require SWAT response. Insurrections like the ones happening throughout 2020 require riot control means. If you do not want police to act as a hostile force, do not act like a hostile force yourself by being involved in an insurrection (or an "uprising" as #BLMers and Antifas prefer to refer to it). After all, it was #BLM and Antifa that actually was an occupying army in cities like Minneapolis, Seattle and Atlanta. Remember "Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone"?
It's a two way street. Peaceful protests are one thing, but what has been happening with increased frequency since #BLM was founded in 2014 (and reached a crescendo in 2020) is far from peaceful protesting.
 
Since the topic of this tangent is overly militarizing the police, I argue that it does not matter if it is a “real tank” or “just an armored personnel carrier that looks like a tank,” because my argument is about the way the police interact with the community - like they are a military unit and the people are the enemy.
These things are not used for everyday policing. They are not used for interactions with the community. Their use is limited to special circumstances.
 
It's a bad loophole in the right not to be searched or arrested without a warrant, and is the antithesis of freedom.
Checking you for open warrants does not mean you will be arrested without a warrant. How is it a "bad loophole"?

Once the cops are permitted to stop and search any citizen on suspicion of a trivial breach of a minor traffic regulation, the right not to be arbitrarily stopped and searched has ceased to exist.
If police observe a violation of traffic laws (even minor ones) they are usually (except in some lefty cities) permitted to stop you. What's wrong with that? They are allowed to ticket you and check your license and registration. If you have arrest warrants, you will be taken into custody.
What's wrong with all that? Checking somebody for warrants is not "unreasonable search and seizure". I do not see where you get that notion from.

Of course, I don't expect an American to grasp what freedom actually is; Because they are so completely immersed in a society thst uses it as a mindless slogan, where it's just a placeholder for 'oppressive actions I don't personally object to'.
Are you trying to tell me that police down under can't stop you for violating traffic laws? That they can't run you for warrants once they stop you?
 
Countries (and States) that have decriminalised drug use
global map
Your map shows all land area as blue.
 
I'd bet that your garden variety meth lab has stuff that would be effective against a tank if deployed correctly. :)
That meth labs have things that are toxic and explosive is a big reason why these departments want armor.
 
Note that he was committing two offenses at the time--the tag which they weren't stopping people for at that time and the air freshener hanging from the mirror (obstructed windshield) that we have no indication they weren't stopping people for.

Apparently he was also making an illegal turn.

Minnesota Reformer said:
Potter was with the new officer she was training, Anthony Luckey, when he noticed Wright’s blinker signaling a right turn even though he was in the left turning lane. He said he also noticed the air freshener hanging from the rearview mirror, which is technically against the law, and that the car’s registration tab had expired.
Lawyers lay out opposing views of police shooting that killed Daunte Wright

After they stopped him, it turned out he had no driver's license nor insurance. I think uninsured and unlicensed drivers should be taken off the streets as they make driving more dangerous for everyone. And of course, he also had the gun warrant.
 
Those ‘offenses’ were minor at any time and were supposed to be ignored during the time he was pulled over. No one is suggesting that Wright was a good guy. But he should never have been pulled over.
Given that he had no license, no insurance, and had a warrant, yes, he should have been pulled over.
 
If that's an excuse to stop and search, then the cops basically have the right to stop and search on a whim.
Not stop and search. Stop and ask for license and insurance, then run the license to see if the person has any warrants.
A search of the vehicle requires more than just a traffic stop.

I don't think you should be OK with the cavalier abandonment of the fourth amendment without so much as a debate.
I know you are Australian and all, but why do you think traffic stops are a violation of the 4th Amendment? Are you going "sovereign citizen" on us? "I wasn't driving, I was travelling"?

But it's your freedom. It's not my place to defend it.
True. How are they doing things in Australia? Are there traffic stops? What happens if you are stopped? Does the cop ask for license, registration and proof of insurance?
 
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